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Any skin on any ship - bug on SiSi - yes we could have skins on ships

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Author
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#261 - 2015-05-04 11:55:52 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Even if you plan to release everything and are making an effort to do so, the pricing is... obnoxious.

OK, so why don't you give specific feedback. What do you want to see, and what price is the most you'd be willing to pay? Imagine everything conceivable is on the table.



Have ship skins and color schemes.

Time limited and permanent ship skins that can only be applied to a certain ship that is based off of lore and consistent with the universe and offer time limited and permanent color schemes that resemble the skins but don't have logos that can be applied to any ship.

This would let players choose. Do I want a Police Comet or do I want an Nightmare that has the same type of appearance but without logos. I agree that the lore aspect is important and that it needs to be consistent but CCP also needs to consider the people that pay no attention to lore.

There is a huge opportunity here and being too conservative could cost a lot of money. I think skins limited by time shouldn't cost more than five or six dollars and color schemes should be three or four. I would pay more for a particular faction because I want that faction's logo but if I just like the colors without the logos it should cost less. Think brand name and generic, very similar products but one has a name you're paying for.

Permanent skins should around $15 and color schemes should be around $10. I would love to have a Blood Raider Prospect but the most I am going to pay for a permanent skin is around $15 but if I could get a similar color scheme that I could put on my Prospect or Algos I would pay $10, no problem. The scheme wouldn't have the logos or the exact pattern but it would be close enough for me to enjoy it. Keep skins within lore but allow color schemes on any ship.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

Memphis Baas
#262 - 2015-05-04 12:27:35 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
There is a huge opportunity here and being too conservative could cost a lot of money.
This is what frustrates me; it looks as if the devs have fallen into the trap that is EVE's potential. Newbies spin their ships in their hangars training skills and imagining just how great it will be when they finally have the skills to pilot PVP ships and finally undock and go kill everyone, and the veterans keep telling them "don't wait, PVP now!"

Now the devs have this skin system but are trying to trickle it out, thinking of all the potential money they can make once we're hooked, when every other MMO and every marketing tutorial out there would scream "release it now and make your money, then come up with upgrades and make more money, then invent something else and make even more money."

The NES store has a few outfits, all overpriced, following the same marketing strategy and lack of effort to expand product lines and sales. I'm not sure if they're happy with how the NES is performing.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#263 - 2015-05-04 12:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Burl en Daire wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Even if you plan to release everything and are making an effort to do so, the pricing is... obnoxious.

OK, so why don't you give specific feedback. What do you want to see, and what price is the most you'd be willing to pay? Imagine everything conceivable is on the table.



Have ship skins and color schemes.

Time limited and permanent ship skins that can only be applied to a certain ship that is based off of lore and consistent with the universe and offer time limited and permanent color schemes that resemble the skins but don't have logos that can be applied to any ship.

This would let players choose. Do I want a Police Comet or do I want an Nightmare that has the same type of appearance but without logos. I agree that the lore aspect is important and that it needs to be consistent but CCP also needs to consider the people that pay no attention to lore.

There is a huge opportunity here and being too conservative could cost a lot of money. I think skins limited by time shouldn't cost more than five or six dollars and color schemes should be three or four. I would pay more for a particular faction because I want that faction's logo but if I just like the colors without the logos it should cost less. Think brand name and generic, very similar products but one has a name you're paying for.

Permanent skins should around $15 and color schemes should be around $10. I would love to have a Blood Raider Prospect but the most I am going to pay for a permanent skin is around $15 but if I could get a similar color scheme that I could put on my Prospect or Algos I would pay $10, no problem. The scheme wouldn't have the logos or the exact pattern but it would be close enough for me to enjoy it. Keep skins within lore but allow color schemes on any ship.


Very interesting, may I ask how many skins you would be willing to pay these sums for?

You are clearly someone who has declared oneself a customer for this product, it would be valuable to see what income CCP could earn from customers such as yourself as opposed to the income generated by the subscription model and using the skin technology to drive that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Varrgas Arthurus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#264 - 2015-05-04 13:03:15 UTC
they have fixed the bug ... and nothing more.

Ok now, i know CCP think his player are just money Cow .


Don't let them **** us like that. There is no eason at all to pay more Aurum (real money) for a frig skin than a cruser skin or titan if they have the same color and patern, and not so mush price diference btw !


Somthing more interesting, they have change some Skin price without notification :) and that not for help us, because the "Maller Kador Skin" was at 1955 Aurum, (just 5 more Aurum than we can buy with 10€ , funny, and now they are a 1965, maybe for not being so noticabale as a trap ?

the Titan Skin have heavyer price too, i don't notice every difference, but CCP isn't clear !

They know we can apply a color with "one" skin on every ship, but we have to pay for each ship ... Money Money Money !!!

CCP don't care about his pmayer now, they just think we have money to burn, and we didn't deserve explication of price history.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2015-05-04 13:03:58 UTC
Logged in this morning to no more Quafe Confessor. Needless to say I'm disappointed.
But most of all I'm a target consumer who feels rather burned.

We know what the system can do, but CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it. We've been given no long term plants for how the system will be used. No explanation for the random pricing. No indication that they will offer us what we want from this "glitch" that clearly showed that as players we don't want Lore and an excuse to not let us paint our ships however we want, or at least however existing skins would permit.

Now I invested in Aurum before the patch happened. And I have a stack of almost all the SKIN's that existed before the system changed, less the Scorp and some ships I didn't care for. But now I'm not planning to invest anymore. I'm someone who would gladly pay for skins for ships I use regularly.. and for ships I don't just to collect, but I'm not spending any more on this system till CCP either Delivers, like the bug did, or provides some feedback beyond "Ya we thought that was fun" and "Lore says no.."

The lack of feedback over a bug that's caused more excitement in Eve than I've seen in a long time boggles my mind.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#266 - 2015-05-04 13:09:46 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it.

Please don't infer anything from this. Not every developer engages on the forums the same way.

I'll quote CCP Falcon's post on Reddit:

CCP Falcon wrote:
As we said over the weekend, and fix for this was inevitable given the fact that it was unintended and was clearly a bug.
We have however learned a lot from what people have been doing with SKINs over the weekend, and we actually have a meeting set up this afternoon to talk about where to go from here and talk more about strategy for skins in the future.
While the bug has been patched out, we've gathered a lot of valuable feedback over the course of the weekend, and will be talking about it and considering it going forward :)

Source

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#267 - 2015-05-04 13:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sniper Smith wrote:
Logged in this morning to no more Quafe Confessor. Needless to say I'm disappointed.
But most of all I'm a target consumer who feels rather burned.

We know what the system can do, but CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it. We've been given no long term plants for how the system will be used. No explanation for the random pricing. No indication that they will offer us what we want from this "glitch" that clearly showed that as players we don't want Lore and an excuse to not let us paint our ships however we want, or at least however existing skins would permit.

Now I invested in Aurum before the patch happened. And I have a stack of almost all the SKIN's that existed before the system changed, less the Scorp and some ships I didn't care for. But now I'm not planning to invest anymore. I'm someone who would gladly pay for skins for ships I use regularly.. and for ships I don't just to collect, but I'm not spending any more on this system till CCP either Delivers, like the bug did, or provides some feedback beyond "Ya we thought that was fun" and "Lore says no.."

The lack of feedback over a bug that's caused more excitement in Eve than I've seen in a long time boggles my mind.



The bug did clearly show that there was an interest in the idea of personalising ships beyond the current approved release.
Generating player interest is of course a valuable goal in a subscription based product.

However monetising interesting features is not going to have that desired effect, and in fact may have negative consequences to the overall product, if such features only enter the game through additional cash purchases.

If the feature was available to enter the game through player activity in the game,( as opposed to traded) as well as "whale" purchases, then both goals could be achieved.

It will be interesting to see whether this is a considered decision, or a power struggle between different departments.

Hopefully in the long term both the player community and CCP will be the winners.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Varrgas Arthurus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2015-05-04 13:13:33 UTC
Sniper Smith, same there, i am like you.

I cant understand what CCP doing, they have a bug who make EvE more alive than a long time with a feature who was waiting since EvE Start, and they fix this without a word (and change come price on the store, not for good)

That like they want kill themself the game. Of course they will not really kill the game, but that like take all player dream, poo on them, and trash them with a smile and without a word, i don't understand.

And what is really disturbing, there is a clear way to solve everything, many many player ask for universal patern and are abale to paye the cost of Titan skin for this, and that a clear and obvius idea. We can, in the game with the previus bug, apply a color on a ship with an other ship but same patern color, and that work as we have the real Skin for this ship, So why individual skin ?

And why so many diferent price for same ship ? black is cool so more expensive ? com'on
Varrgas Arthurus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#269 - 2015-05-04 13:15:17 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it.

Please don't infer anything from this. Not every developer engages on the forums the same way.

I'll quote CCP Falcon's post on Reddit:

CCP Falcon wrote:
As we said over the weekend, and fix for this was inevitable given the fact that it was unintended and was clearly a bug.
We have however learned a lot from what people have been doing with SKINs over the weekend, and we actually have a meeting set up this afternoon to talk about where to go from here and talk more about strategy for skins in the future.
While the bug has been patched out, we've gathered a lot of valuable feedback over the course of the weekend, and will be talking about it and considering it going forward :)

Source



Have you done a meeting for uping the ship price too ? or that a punishement ?
Varrgas Arthurus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#270 - 2015-05-04 13:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Varrgas Arthurus
mystake, delete, sorry.
Leo Burnhart
Through The Star Horizon
Legion of xXDEATHXx
#271 - 2015-05-04 13:26:00 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it.

Please don't infer anything from this. Not every developer engages on the forums the same way.

I'll quote CCP Falcon's post on Reddit:

CCP Falcon wrote:
As we said over the weekend, and fix for this was inevitable given the fact that it was unintended and was clearly a bug.
We have however learned a lot from what people have been doing with SKINs over the weekend, and we actually have a meeting set up this afternoon to talk about where to go from here and talk more about strategy for skins in the future.
While the bug has been patched out, we've gathered a lot of valuable feedback over the course of the weekend, and will be talking about it and considering it going forward :)

Source


Well, it would be great if you give the community at least some of the decisions that will be made on that meeting. That would at least calm the people and gave us something to look for.
Memphis Baas
#272 - 2015-05-04 13:50:51 UTC
I'm sure they'll put out a dev blog.

We can't "not let them treat us this way"; what are we going to do, shoot space statues? It's a seller / customer relationship, the only possible way forward is for them to put out whatever product they feel is appropriate at whatever price, and for us to buy or not buy, individually. You don't go yelling at Walmart for raising their prices, or at the gas station attendant for the same.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#273 - 2015-05-04 13:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Burl en Daire
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Very interesting, may I ask how many skins you would be willing to pay these sums for?

You are clearly someone who has declared oneself a customer for this product, it would be valuable to see what income CCP could earn from customers such as yourself as opposed to the income generated by the subscription model and using the skin technology to drive that.


With the prices around what I was saying I would probably try out some time limited color schemes till I found a few I like and then go for the permanent ones. I would guess I would probably spend $10 - $15 every couple of months. Which is double what I spend now. I may by a PLEX every 4 months as it is now, just for the extra ISK because of my limited time in game.

In my eyes they need to aim for volume. I might even change it to all color schemes are time based and all skins are permanent. With a lower price point I would be much more willing to buy cosmetic items. Micro transactions stop being mirco around $5 to me and the point of micro transactions is to make money from volume.

I am much more interested in making my ships look how I want over having a particular ship look a certain way. To me, they don't need to be DL or Blood Raider but I do want a black Astero, Hulk or Algos.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#274 - 2015-05-04 13:58:16 UTC
Leo Burnhart wrote:


Spawn of The Dark Gods of the past. Shocked
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2015-05-04 14:19:20 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it.

Please don't infer anything from this. Not every developer engages on the forums the same way.

I'll quote CCP Falcon's post on Reddit:

CCP Falcon wrote:
As we said over the weekend, and fix for this was inevitable given the fact that it was unintended and was clearly a bug.
We have however learned a lot from what people have been doing with SKINs over the weekend, and we actually have a meeting set up this afternoon to talk about where to go from here and talk more about strategy for skins in the future.
While the bug has been patched out, we've gathered a lot of valuable feedback over the course of the weekend, and will be talking about it and considering it going forward :)

Source

I don't mean to imply that they aren't reading, or listening. But they aren't engaging. And I give a huge kudos for you for doing so, even if I don't always agree with your assessments :) Even a once a day post by the devs in charge of this, with a response to some questions, or their thoughts on what's been said, would in my opinion be Hugely beneficial to all.

In my experience the best changes in Eve happens in Dev's get engaged with the players in the topic at hand. I'd rather hear, now, what the devs are thinking. Then we can provide feedback.. a Yay/Nay. Rather than us vent, they read, come to a conclusion, and implement it, followed by another thread like this cause we still have issues.

It's one thing if something isn't done the way I want cause the Dev's feel that their way is the best. It's a WHOLE other if thinks aren't done because they didn't consider or were never exposed to counter arguments.

If CCP could have just implemented this bug as a feature on Sisi, and left it for a month, imagine how much Data they would have got? What ships to we fly, what skins do we want, how do we want to mix and match? They would quickly have learned that our interest in skins do NOT limit themselves to racial lines. I mean they should have got the picture when we figured out the WebGL Ship Viewer and started mixing and matching there, but test server would likely give better info. Hell, even better, do it on TQ for a week. Any ship. Any skin. Free for all, lets get the data of what people want, then act on it. Not as a weekend bug that lets face it, many if not most players are totally unaware of, or unable to use cause they don't want to buy a Skin JUST for playing with the bug.

I get the performance issues with a few skins, those specific skins for specific models could be blacklisted. Finished skins can be indicated, with unfinished/optimized skins also indicated. Then let the players have a week at it. Imagine how much Hype that would have generated for the SKIN system? Not to mention all the data on what the Players wanted.


Even without all that, some feedback on what they long term goals are would be great. Is the plan to stick to skins applying to racial lines? If so, I'm not keen on it. As we have seen in this thread, and reddit, and in game, neither are a lot of other people. Is the plan to open it up so almost all skins are available for almost all models? Well if that's the long term goal, and the only reason it's not been implemented NOW is the QA issues mentioned before, then that's a totally different situation. I'd be far more forgiving in that case, and patient. Knowing that we are going to get there, so I can truly own a Quafe or Syndicate Marauder would make me thrilled.

Speaking or Marauders, there's been skins for them since Dec, that haven't been Seeded, and despite my bringing it up in almost every SKIN thread I've been in, no Dev seems willing to acknowledge them, much less let us know when we can expect to see them. I'm VERY Thankful that I didn't resub my alt for this SKIN update. I was going to originally, just to get her into a Quafe Kronos, which is one damn sexy skin, but decided to wait and see what what the prices would be. Imagine my surprise when I logged in to see that none of those new skins for Marauders were seeded at all. I can get the Chinese skins being added to the TQ DB, but why add other skins that haven't been seeded anywhere, on any server, and leave them for Months without a word? Even after there were several threads about them and the other skinned ships added ( Pirate Skins for normal BS's, Police Skins, etc..)

Anyway, there's my thoughts.
Luna Le Fey
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#276 - 2015-05-04 14:28:08 UTC
So just out of curiosity, how many people here wouldn't have bought any skins if it wasn't for the bug ?
Part of me was expecting to see my ships still skinned after the patch (small part) and I'm pretty annoyed that they have been reset because if it wasn't for the bug I wouldn't have given anything. I'd love to skin all of my ships the colours I wanted but I'm not going to pay the stupid prices that they're at now, I'd pay £2 per skin, MAYBE £5 for the bigger ships. The price that they're at right now is just so greedy, either once we buy one of the skins now allow us to fit that skin to any ship or drop the price.
I'm somewhat surprised there hasn't been a protest started yet, shooting at that poor monument that always wonders why everyone hates it.
Solecist Project
#277 - 2015-05-04 14:34:43 UTC
The only thing that bugs me about all of this ...
... is how a company called Crowd Control Production ...
... didn't come up with the idea of doing this intentionally.

Because that would have been brilliant!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#278 - 2015-05-04 15:25:19 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Even if you plan to release everything and are making an effort to do so, the pricing is... obnoxious.

OK, so why don't you give specific feedback. What do you want to see, and what price is the most you'd be willing to pay? Imagine everything conceivable is on the table.


I can't speak for anyone but myself, but here's my personal take on the skins.

The weekend bug was awesome, and if that was an actual feature then I might actually spend real money on skins.

That being said, there's not a single snowball's chance in hell that I will pay real money, at the current prices, for a skin that is locked to one single ship type.


That being said - if I could have the option to buy, say - S/M/L/XL skins that fit on any ship in their class, including Tier 2 ships - then I might be tempted. Think rig or module fitting, but with skins. I might even be ok with some that were locked to race - e.g. Amarr Sarum Medium Skin that fit on any Amarr ship in the same range that takes medium rigs. I could really care less if it has some kind of pixel corporation logo on it because of "lore" or whatever you call it - you can make those "lore" skins separate and give the majority of us who don't care about that stuff a variety of different colored skins that are a much better value for money and allow some personalization, and save the "lore" skins for special events or buddy deals or whatever.

TL;DR - classify skins by S/M/L/XL like everything else in the game and make them fit on ALL ships of the same level. I'd happily drop $10-15-20-25 for that.
CCP Falcon
#279 - 2015-05-04 15:30:16 UTC
I've already posted on reddit, but obviously I'll share here too.

To follow up on this thread, we've had a sit down today to talk shop over SKINs and everything surrounding them.

This meeting included Team Size Matters, as well as a few of the art guys, myself, CCP Seagull and our CCP Thomas, our Monetization Director.

We should have a dev blog for you guys early next week that's going to have a decent amount of content in it for you to take a look at.

All I can say right now is that your questions and concerns have been taken on board, and we had a super healthy discussion about all this today, where everyone involved within CCP is very much on the same page Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#280 - 2015-05-04 15:35:00 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

All I can say right now is that your questions and concerns have been taken on board, and we had a super healthy discussion about all this today, where everyone involved within CCP is very much on the same page Smile


As long as being on the same page includes not devaluing the 30+ Quafe skins I'm hanging on to, I don't much care what you come up with.

Mr Epeen Cool