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Any skin on any ship - bug on SiSi - yes we could have skins on ships

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Author
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2015-05-04 19:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sniper Smith
Rowells wrote:
kind of the same way I can't paint my house some obnoxious color "because I want to". The game as a whole has an aesthetic that many people enjoy, and an atmoshpere you can't find many other places. Let a bunch of players bling out their ships like CoD guns and there goes a good chunk of it. Regardless of how this ends up being implemented, there will be limits. I highly doubt anyone at CCp is dumb enough to let 100% happen so that the hello kitty and MLP skins come through.

So, in the same respect, I ask you why you think 'your' (its not yours unironically) ship is so special, as to remove and diminish an aspect many other players enjoy.

Well where I am, I can paint my house however I want.
But with that said, I'm not even asking for truly custom skins. The overhead on that would be excessive. But I am asking for the SKIN's selection that CCP releases, to be made available for all Hulls, and all Races.

As for why should mine be special.. Why shouldn't it? Why shouldn't I have options because YOU might not like my choices. I don't like Red Convertibles, but I go out for a drive I have the live with the fact that I may see some. It's not like people in Eve are going to have my ship in their face all the time. First, the ship you'll see most often is your own. Second, after that, most time when you see other ships it'll be so zoomed out they could be painted Hello Kitty and you'd never notice. Most that you see upclose would be in passing at best (Gates, Undocking, etc). To call me flying in a Quafe Paladin, or a Khanid Dominix diminishing your game, that's just silly. If it's really such a big issue then CCP can just add a checkbox for your client to only display the base skin, and no custom ones.. Same way you can turn off Turrets, Drones, etc.

And I agree, Lore isn't an excuse. Lore should be something that adds content to the game, not artificially limit it. If you want Lore to limit Skins, then it should limit hulls, modules, drones, and everything else too. I mean if you want lore then it can be like the old Provi Block. When they chose to fly Amarr Ships and the like.. CHOSE being the key there. No one forced them. They had their fun, while everyone else did their own thing.
Mario Putzo
#302 - 2015-05-04 19:34:06 UTC
With so many skins to choose from Im not sure how to decide which I want...oh they can only be used on one ship. Well that makes my choice much easier. Sorry CCP I will not be buying skins from you, its a shame, I was getting pretty hyped with all the sexy photos shared over the weekend.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#303 - 2015-05-04 19:35:35 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Why should LORE have any effect on how I paint my ships?

I can go out tomorrow and buy a BMW, and paint it like a Shelby Mustang. Would ford rather I didn't? Ya, but the ship is Mine, so too bad.

Using Lore as an excuse for not allowing us to paint our ships how we want, except outside of "Navy" colour schemes, is just silly. If you want to go that far, then you'd best also make sure that you can't use any ships in FW except for your faction. That Faction mods only fit on that factions ships. That if your Minm you can't run missions for the Amarr. Etc.

It's silly. If you don't like it, turn skins off. NPC's can stick to the Lore, leave us players to decide ourselves how we want out ships to look.
Now if it means that we don't get the Logo on the side, so be it. Though I for one want a Quafe Logo on the side of my Paladin. And a Wiyrkomi logo on my Orca.


It's more like a BMW with a FORD logo on it.

The best option, would be to just give colors per texture map, like :

in () goes the Khanid exemple
1- for Hull 1 (black)
2- for Hull 2 (silverish)
3- for Light Color (blue)

Whatever, CCP has made its decision.

If you want to see our game with multicolor hulls everywhere and throw away any sense at all, go for it !


Would it have any effect on you if I put a BMW logo on my 20 years old Volkswagen? Or if I change my Porsche logo for that of a Lada?

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com

Cleanse Serce
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#304 - 2015-05-04 20:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
I don't know.

Just complete free will to players about SKINs is not the way CCP should go, in my own opinion.

Lore, is not an excuse.
I'm well aware that we can bend and twist over and over again the Lore in order to make any thing acceptable.

When you say "excuse", we say "framework" when it comes to the Lore.
Certain things shouldn't be allowed Lore-wise.

Like you can't have afro hairs for Amarr Toons, there are Lore rules, and those rules makes the game logical in its way.

I don't want to see Khanid Megathron, but i don't care if i see a Black and Silver Megathron.

Subtle difference but it makes it all.
Varrgas Arthurus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#305 - 2015-05-04 20:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Varrgas Arthurus
Those "Lore" question are usless since we are player, i mean Capsulier, we aren't like the NPC from each faction. As capsulier we can go in any ship we want.

If you want make Lore restriction, then why my Gallente can pilote an Amarr Cruser ? You cant ask for Lore skin restriction if you are in a different ship than your faction one.

i am ok with the "Framework" if that legit. For player/Capsulier, Lore restriction musn't affect us, we are free from Faction restriction.

Quote:
The only restriction right now for this is technical, based on how surfaces interact with light, eachother, the colors on them, and other such craziness. I've been talking to art, and Team Size Matters, and there'll be more information on this next week as I've said, and what the plan is going forward :)



what a joke ... i have test close to all ship in the game with close to all Skin avaible before the Mosaic and some new. Only some ship have truble with light refraction or bad texture application, and in a large majority it's the holdess hull skin, like Scorpion/Rattle or T3 , you talk there about 10 - 15 ship , not mush more, so what about other avaible skin that work right ?

I have seen by y own eyes the tone of ship and skin avaible without issue. You just block those feature to make money.
For proof, you increase skin price in Aurum and didn't notice player, nice mentality, what are we ? just some interesting wallet ?
Cleanse Serce
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#306 - 2015-05-04 20:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Varrgas Arthurus wrote:
Those "Lore" question are usless since we are player, i mean Capsulier, we aren't like the NPC from each faction.

If you want make Lore restriction, then why my Gallente can pilote an Amarr Cruser ? You cant ask for Lore skin restriction if you are in a different ship than your faction one.


Yes, actually you are all right.

Why are we even make any design difference anyway ?
Let's just all redesign ships like bricks, let's get rid of the LoƔore.

Yay. \o/

Roll
Varrgas Arthurus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#307 - 2015-05-04 20:34:50 UTC
Corp Skin with corp / alliance logo on the Hull will be more interesting and legit than Lore restriction, but maybe make a feature to let us put a corp logo on the hull is too hard :/
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2015-05-04 21:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
CCP Falcon wrote:
I've already posted on reddit, but obviously I'll share here too.

To follow up on this thread, we've had a sit down today to talk shop over SKINs and everything surrounding them.

This meeting included Team Size Matters, as well as a few of the art guys, myself, CCP Seagull and our CCP Thomas, our Monetization Director.

We should have a dev blog for you guys early next week that's going to have a decent amount of content in it for you to take a look at.

All I can say right now is that your questions and concerns have been taken on board, and we had a super healthy discussion about all this today, where everyone involved within CCP is very much on the same page Smile


Thanks for having this conversation, nice to know there is some consideration going on including the thread participation. Just wanted to chime in since I missed the initial question of pricing some pages back. The pricing wouldn't be so bad were it not for the inflexibility of the current available skins.

If the skins could apply to all ships which the lore would allow, or at least the hull variants of a particular ship the prices would be easier to deal with in bulk. I still think a good compromise is a single skin per race and size of ship, for instance a frigate Sarum skin that could apply to all Amarr frigates including T2 and navy variants or even pirates who use Amarr skills.

Looking forward to what comes out of the conversation.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#309 - 2015-05-04 21:27:29 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
I've already posted on reddit, but obviously I'll share here too.

To follow up on this thread, we've had a sit down today to talk shop over SKINs and everything surrounding them.

This meeting included Team Size Matters, as well as a few of the art guys, myself, CCP Seagull and our CCP Thomas, our Monetization Director.

We should have a dev blog for you guys early next week that's going to have a decent amount of content in it for you to take a look at.

All I can say right now is that your questions and concerns have been taken on board, and we had a super healthy discussion about all this today, where everyone involved within CCP is very much on the same page Smile



I'll add my thanks too, and I know y'all gotta strike various balances (between revenue, technical limitations lore and other things). But like I said in another thread, i'm not a vanity item type of guy but seeing those beautifl skins in-game in my incursion fleet made me open that Nex store for the very 1st time intentionally (before I learned it was a bug, I was damn well gonna buy me a gold Machariel skin lol).

Do it right and this all turns into a 'shut up CCP and take my damn money' situation, even from someone like me.
Mario Putzo
#310 - 2015-05-04 21:34:02 UTC
The funny thing about lore is it can be changed. CCP has already essentially set the stage for a "black market" for ship camo, some dudes ripped of the Caldari, now they want to make bank with their new toy. So they set up a service to do just that.

Jimmys Chop Shop. Coming to a Star System near you.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#311 - 2015-05-04 21:56:36 UTC
log'd in seen jungle growing out of my tempest again...log'd out

enjoyed sebiestor skin for few hours at least last night

greed is good i guess.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#312 - 2015-05-04 22:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Profit motive is great, I just wonder if everyone on that island is just plain out of touch. "Lemme tell you about how we spend disposable income on the mainland."

You know, this one time I went up to Winnipeg with some of my military buddies, and we all had our muscle cars... Mustangs, Camaros, Trans Am. This waitress saw our cars parked out front with American plates, mine California of all places. She takes our orders and said, "Peachy!"

So I mean, I have to wonder if this is another case of skewed perception of mainstream western culture, and too much news coverage of Paris Hilton and other TV shows.

I went to Vegas recently, did some ridiculous gambling with nearly $2k and posted about it on Twitter. Thing about stuff like that is yes it happens, but no one lives like that -all- the time.

I gotta hand it to the CCPs I see pictures of. They look very fashionable and apparently have sophisticated taste.

But man, that's a lot of effort, most of the world does not live balls to the wall like that, in style or spending. Maybe the SKIN pricing is due to some idea of mainstream extravagance in the rest of the first world.

It's over the top.

I'm hopeful for good news in the upcoming dev blog, but if we started at SKINs for $20 I'm not completely reassured to hear "everyone is in agreement."

Here's hoping a giant GIANT bunny comes out of that top hat.
Memphis Baas
#313 - 2015-05-04 23:34:09 UTC
I think they're confused about what you're trying to say, Rain.

Rain6637 wrote:
the pricing is... obnoxious

Rain6637 wrote:
if I want a SKIN license that works on all ships, it would be $250

Rain6637 wrote:
Maybe the SKIN pricing is due to some idea of mainstream extravagance in the rest of the first world. [...] It's over the top.


All of that, buried inside LONG posts that wander all over the place.

Just say: I want to pay $1 for a single ship, and $250 for a single skin to all ships. Much simpler.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#314 - 2015-05-05 00:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
You are apparently one of those people whose reading comprehension is good. Hell you might even be able to connect related ideas and reach your own conclusions. Unfortunately, brevity in this type of discussion is a bad idea. The disconnect between what players want and actual market pricing and availability involves basic, core assumptions that need to be expressed to be understood.

And it's a huge disconnect. We're talking 1/10th the prices, with 10x the selection compared to what is live on TQ.

I suspect that as a person moves from being a player to working on the game as a dev, slowly and inevitably, you begin to lose touch. As you iterate the game, it becomes less and less like the game you knew as a player.

What am I saying. That you need to spell things out in plain English for Devs, because they lack the perspective for you to get away with simply saying "I want this and this."

I say pricing is extravagant because the range is from a few dollars to nearly twenty for a SKIN. Say that averages out to $10. There are still 1,000 + SKINs to be released, and you're telling me it makes sense to expect a player to pay for SKINs at an average price point of $10... ?

I'm giving them the benefit. Maybe they believe it's proper. It's possible it's an honest mistake on their part, but those assumptions about the average player's spending habits are still wrong.

Go to 55:15, and you'll hear this explanation for limited variations of vanity items (clothing) "The more unique the asset is, the less we want to make multiple variations out of it" https://soundcloud.com/mike-azariah/ccpclothing

I get why they think such a strategy is valid. I also think it's being used too frequently. Exclusivity is an abstract concept, and the average player is much simpler than that. We just want cool things, even if it's not exclusive. Things like black-on-black color schemes are cool no matter what. When you also make them limited, the majority of players have to miss out on content.

I bring this up because it would explain why SKINs are released in so few quantities at such high price points. Some notion about exclusivity. But we're visual animals, it's better to just make things available rather than not. Exclusivity is fake / contrived / artificial value anyway. If it looks good, sell it.

I think the enjoyment of a SKIN should be intrinsic. You like it because it looks great, not because other people don't have it.

Or that it was super expensive. $1,000 jeans.
Miao Sajuuk
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#315 - 2015-05-05 00:32:53 UTC
It's not a bug.
It's a feature.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#316 - 2015-05-05 00:35:21 UTC
Time limited feature celebrating May Fourth, like DoTA's insane mode thing once a year.
Hicksimus
Torgue
#317 - 2015-05-05 01:11:02 UTC
Good thing they fix stuff like this.

EvE is real! Real boring.

Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you? Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.

Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#318 - 2015-05-05 01:21:30 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:


I think the enjoyment of a SKIN should be intrinsic. You like it because it looks great, not because other people don't have it.



That's exactly how I feel about the SKINs. The Syndicate SKINs have a very pleasing (to me) colour scheme, whereas others may prefer the garish colours of Interbus.

Industrial and transport ships are the ones I'd expect, from a lore standpoint, to have very distinctive colour schemes.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#319 - 2015-05-05 01:34:18 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP Darwin seems to be the only dev willing to talk about it.

Please don't infer anything from this. Not every developer engages on the forums the same way.

I'll quote CCP Falcon's post on Reddit:

CCP Falcon wrote:
As we said over the weekend, and fix for this was inevitable given the fact that it was unintended and was clearly a bug.
We have however learned a lot from what people have been doing with SKINs over the weekend, and we actually have a meeting set up this afternoon to talk about where to go from here and talk more about strategy for skins in the future.
While the bug has been patched out, we've gathered a lot of valuable feedback over the course of the weekend, and will be talking about it and considering it going forward :)

Source



Here is my take on it.

It was cool to take advantage of the bug in the SKIN system and paint up Sarum Machariels and the like. Police Domis look ************* cool.

Of course, this broke CCP's business model for commoditising the SKIN sales to make money from space-rich nerds who want to customise their space pixels and make them look sexy...and then fight zoomed out so everyone's just a collection of little boxes.

The thing is, this bug in the SKIN system has doubtless done a hell of a lot more to promote the SKINs and generate buzz and interest in re-skinning and customising your ships than any marketing buzz CCP could have ever come up with. Ever.

Sure, Police Comets are kind of fun. But the Police Domi, or Police Tempest, they look fantastic and awesome and none of this was intended, and suddenly if I could buy a SKIN (or since i already have it, just apply it) and use it on whichever ship i wanted, then I would do that. I would save my pennies if not dual-training my alt into a gank dread for nullsec carrier killing, or dual-training my other alt to be a probe alt spy, I would totally blow a billion a month on SKINs.

However, CCP has put the kibosh on the fun, and that's understandable. However, it raises a question about whether there's alternative business models for SKIN sales and usage, which will be more lucrative for CCP.

Under the current SKIN system, you buy a SKIN for a specific ship for an account or character. If you have a Khanid Oracle, you have a Khanid Oracle. Job done, US$15 for CCP, Hilmar gets to put some fuel in his super yacht this week.

However, what if you had a Providence, and liked it when the bug allowed you to make a Khanid Providence? Fresh out of luck, you might get a Roden Providence. Or, wait, bad example: what if you have any Minmatar ship whatsoever, and want it to look badass, and don't fly the Hurricane so you can get a badass Sebiestor SKIN? Fresh out of luck, even though the Roden Cyclone was bling as hell and I want one.

CCP loses $15 from me (via hook or crook or PLEX or Aurum traded to me for ISK won from belt rats) because I won't be buying any Minmatar SKINs. I also won't be buying Quafe or Police Pursuit skins for my Cyclone, now. So CCP is losing out on $15 that way.

So, CCP has to consider that they might make more money by taking their SKIN system business model and evaluating the likelihood that people will actually buy more SKINs if they can apply them to more ships.

Sure there should be limits. Some SKINs don't transfer over well from ship to ship; they can be blocked out. or maybe, though it pains me, Amarr to minmatar skinning is illegal but you can borrow Gallente-Minmatar etc. Or maybe restrict the SKIN to a ship until it's death or repackaging, or lock it to a hull on application for a month or something, to prevent churning.

Whatever. The universe is your mollusc! But the more flexibility you give us, the more we will spend. That is the take-home from this.

I think that this bug has really shown us that people are incredibly interested in making their ships look cool - more interested than first imagined. I certainly find myself more interested in customising Minmatar ships with Amarr, Gallente and Caldari colours than with the selection of naff ones available.

This also shows that what's cool to one person (say, a CCP art designer) is not cool to everyone else (c.f. the Justice Edition Naglfar) but if you think it's cool, you're likely to buy the SKIN and apply it to whatever you think it looks cool on, and voila, CCP makes money.

So the business model needs a rethink. I think that with some tweaks, not nerfs, CCP stands to make a lot more money, and have vastly more satisfied customers, than under the rigid, locked-down system they put about initially. Viva la bugs!
Memphis Baas
#320 - 2015-05-05 01:49:56 UTC
Rain, I agree, and at the same time disagree with you:

I agree that prices are too high, but disagree that $250 for a single skin is a low price, even if the skin works on all ships.

I agree about explaining our reasoning behind our requests or demands, but at the same time think it's somewhat pointless because we're players arguing against the Director of Monetization and upper corporate management.

They apparently came in at 8, had an emergency meeting, and reached a consensus probably within an hour or two; in that scenario, long posts will probably get TL;DR whereas short posts with numbers may be quoted to prove someone's point.

I agree that they do seem to be aiming the outfits in NES and the skins at, let's say, celebrities looking to only wear name brands. Except, a lot of the outfits aren't sophisticated enough to qualify (wife beaters for example), nor do they all display emblems or manufacturer marks (some do). They failed to realize that a lot of us are just looking for cheap unmarked department store clothes and paint combinations, obviously not caring about emblems or logos; we just want stuff to look good and be cheap. I agree with that.

They could make a killing selling cheap fashion with no emblems, and also "rare" expensive gowns, (futuristic) business suits, leather jackets, or military uniforms WITH emblems. I hope they're seeing it now with the ships - cheap decent colors for the masses, rare emblems for those who do care about Quafe or Sarum or the Cartel. They should modify the Show Info of the ship wearing the rare SKIN to say something along the lines of: "The license to display the Imperial Logo and colors on personal ships has been granted to this pilot by her Imperial Majesty through the Ministry of Rewards, for services rendered to the Empire." Would increase the perceived value of the skin, to have that sort of certificate attached.

But we're just two voices in a sea of opposite views; some don't like these suggestions and want the original system. Others are just annoyed that I've posted so much, feeling I should shut up. Ultimately, all opinions are valid; I did post too much.