These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2015-05-04 02:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Kashadin wrote:
After all this I have a question. Why is being "risk averse"/"loss averse" a bad thing??


I don't think it is when the game is a sandbox game.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#222 - 2015-05-04 03:12:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2015-05-04 03:24:54 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
After all this I have a question. Why is being "risk averse"/"loss averse" a bad thing??

Regardless of why someone doesn't want to do anything in this game, regardless of what they do to make the situation better in their favor. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn't you want to fly with someone who isn't going to want to run into every situation without thinking it through first?


I have spent most of my time in WH space and something that I know is that sometimes you try to find out as much as you can before engaging and sometimes you just gotta go with your gut and hope for the best. Those times when we took the extra time to see if that bearing fleet wasn't bait sometimes saved our ships and sometimes it meant that they noticed our scout jumping a hole and bugged out. Those times that we just went for it sometimes meant that our fleet got whelped when a PVP gang jumped on us when we took the bait (for better or worse for both sides) and sometimes it meant that we killed a juicy bear. Both of these situations we had to make a quick choice as to if we wanted to take the extra time to be safe, or secure a kill. Is that risk aversion or is it flying smart??


If everyone plays in an extremely risk averse manner, fights don't happen.

Right now the people generating content are the people that either 1) don't understand the game enough to assess risk accurately or 2) are willing to dive into high risk situations with an expensive ship or an entire fleet.



The thing is, is that a problem with the way the game is run or with the way that players play the game?

I don't think that CCP will ever be able to do anything that will make people who don't want to do small scale or solo PVP go out and fight unless they make that the only activity in the game, and even then most people will probably just quit the game.

And I ask again, is the perceived risk aversion of players a bad thing or is it just bad when you are someone who only wants to gank or curbstomp people?

Just because you are willing to fly around in a pimp fit BS looking for PVP does not mean that you aren't risk averse, it just means that you are willing to lose a expensive ship.

Hell, most people seem to be just as protective of the pimp fit ships that they PVP with as they are of cheap fit T1 frigs, it comes down to people not wanting to lose something if they don't have to. Which in my opinion has more to do with being a smart pilot and less to do with being risk averse.


Any reason that someone comes up with as to why they don't want to get into a fight with someone doesn't really matter. Whether that be a precived "SP wall", the person is a known blobber or OGB user, the person is flying a ship that counters yours or is set up to defeat yours, or even just because you are flying a PVE fit ship and they are flying a PVP fit ship. What ever they reason that someone has to not fight could be considered being "risk averse".

What would you tell someone who would take a pimp fit pirate BS that was set up to do HS incursions into a WH PVP scenario? That they are the type of person you want to fly with or that they are a idiot? This person is obviously not risk-averse if they knew that PVP was about to go down when they showed up with that ship, just most PVPers would just call them a idiot and a loot-pinata and KB booster.

PVP isn't the only area of EVE where people avoid risk as much as possible. How many guides are out there telling people what ships to use to do certain missions? Hell, how many guides are there that tell you exactly how much DPS is coming from each wave of a PVE encounter and exactly what you need to do to finish the fight as fast and safely as possible?

Players not wanting to die as little to nothing to do with what activity they are doing and has more to do with the fact that EVERYONE HATES LOSING. Period. And any smart player will do what they can to make sure they win, and if they don't that just means that they are suicidal and not "making content"

Trust me, I have made a lot of dumb decisions in this game because I don't mind losing ships, and it annoys the ever loving **** out of me when people blue-ball and pos up/dock up just because they are scared of losing a ship. But I understand that not everyone has a PVP ship on standby, or even has any interest in PVPing. I just move on to the next system and hope that I can catch that person out the next time I run into them. At the same time I'm not willing to take my ship and pod into a giant ball of enemies just to show the "gud fight".


I'm not an idiot man. I'm not asking people to stand and fight in their PvE ship or suicide into a blob. You are missing my point if that's what you think I am saying. I'm talking about players that when presented with a relatively even situation which we will call "potential gudfite," decide they need to undock their logi alts or summon their blob because the risk of losing their ship exceeds 10%. That just makes me want to avoid engaging in pvp unless I can completely control the situation because I know my opposition is utterly terrible or they're horribly outnumbered.

I'm not talking about PvE players wanting to be left alone. I'm talking about a competent player in a pvp fit that rather than engaging my comparable hull would prefer to bring his friends for a gank or drop a logi 50 off. That just makes me adopt their playstyle of never engaging without near certain advantage and enough people playing that way makes for a rather boring time.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#224 - 2015-05-04 03:27:49 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.




Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

If the answer is no, then you prove that the "SP wall" you keep frothing at the mouth about is just a construct of your mind and not a real in-game limiting factor when it comes to being useful.


A pilots ability, or lack there-of, comes from what that pilot is willing to do not how many SP that person has.


Hell, PVE has a harder SP wall than PVP ever will. I can find a place in my fleet for anyone of any skill and SP lvl when going on a roam as long as that person will listen to orders. And any person can find some PVP at any size ship that they can fly. But what you WILL NOT see happen is people taking "sub optimal" skills when it comes to group PVE and even most solo PVE has a form of "SP wall" when it comes to what type of fits/ships do best.

And even the PVE "SP wall" is mostly bull when it comes down to it because there are always different, tho less efficient, ways of doing the PVE content in this game.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2015-05-04 03:29:29 UTC
And for the record I am not advocating changes to the skill system nor do I dislike it compared to other games. I just take issue with people who criticize/advise other players from a perspective that pretends SP disparity has no bearing on engagements.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2015-05-04 03:32:56 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.




Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

If the answer is no, then you prove that the "SP wall" you keep frothing at the mouth about is just a construct of your mind and not a real in-game limiting factor when it comes to being useful.


A pilots ability, or lack there-of, comes from what that pilot is willing to do not how many SP that person has.


Hell, PVE has a harder SP wall than PVP ever will. I can find a place in my fleet for anyone of any skill and SP lvl when going on a roam as long as that person will listen to orders. And any person can find some PVP at any size ship that they can fly. But what you WILL NOT see happen is people taking "sub optimal" skills when it comes to group PVE and even most solo PVE has a form of "SP wall" when it comes to what type of fits/ships do best.

And even the PVE "SP wall" is mostly bull when it comes down to it because there are always different, tho less efficient, ways of doing the PVE content in this game.


You're still missing the point. It's been said about 5 times now that flying with a blob is the best way to mitigate a skill gap. That gap becomes alot more noticeable in smaller engagements and locks a new pilot out of doing things on his own.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#227 - 2015-05-04 03:39:40 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
[quote=Demerius Xenocratus][quote=Kashadin]After all this I have a question.


I'm not an idiot man. I'm not asking people to stand and fight in their PvE ship or suicide into a blob. You are missing my point if that's what you think I am saying. I'm talking about players that when presented with a relatively even situation which we will call "potential gudfite," decide they need to undock their logi alts or summon their blob because the risk of losing their ship exceeds 10%. That just makes me want to avoid engaging in pvp unless I can completely control the situation because I know my opposition is utterly terrible or they're horribly outnumbered.

I'm not talking about PvE players wanting to be left alone. I'm talking about a competent player in a pvp fit that rather than engaging my comparable hull would prefer to bring his friends for a gank or drop a logi 50 off. That just makes me adopt their playstyle of never engaging without near certain advantage and enough people playing that way makes for a rather boring time.





At the end of the day, this comes down to how we as a community decide to go about changing (or not changing) this style of play. Do we keep with the current power creep of getting bigger and bigger blobs? Or do we decide that we each want a larger piece of a smaller pie as it was and start tearing down the current power blocks and spreading the player base around and getting into more fights together.

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself do you want to 1v1 someone or do you want "real pvps" with "real" consequences? Both of these have a different mentality to them and both have a place in EVE.

If you want small scale PVP with people fielding (similar) numbers then go to FW or WHs (and a few places in LS) that the only real outcome of the fight is bragging rights and the ability to say you bested your opponent.

If you want "real pvps" you can try going out to null and becoming a part of the blob, or even try and break up the blob mentality by trying to get the meta to change (good luck to you if you try this)

At the end of the day tho, no one has any reason to give you a "gud fight" if they have the ability to bring out a bigger gun.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#228 - 2015-05-04 03:41:20 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.




Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

If the answer is no, then you prove that the "SP wall" you keep frothing at the mouth about is just a construct of your mind and not a real in-game limiting factor when it comes to being useful.


A pilots ability, or lack there-of, comes from what that pilot is willing to do not how many SP that person has.


Hell, PVE has a harder SP wall than PVP ever will. I can find a place in my fleet for anyone of any skill and SP lvl when going on a roam as long as that person will listen to orders. And any person can find some PVP at any size ship that they can fly. But what you WILL NOT see happen is people taking "sub optimal" skills when it comes to group PVE and even most solo PVE has a form of "SP wall" when it comes to what type of fits/ships do best.

And even the PVE "SP wall" is mostly bull when it comes down to it because there are always different, tho less efficient, ways of doing the PVE content in this game.


You're still missing the point. It's been said about 5 times now that flying with a blob is the best way to mitigate a skill gap. That gap becomes alot more noticeable in smaller engagements and locks a new pilot out of doing things on his own.



And I'm telling you that even at small scale engagements the fact that ships can only have a certain number of skills used at any given time means that the gap between a newer player and a older player is not nearly as big as you would like to make it seem like.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#229 - 2015-05-04 03:48:06 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.


Dude, train reading level 1. Roll

I said that the titan pilot was initially captured by a player/character with a fraction of the SP of the titan pilot. Yeah, he'd never solo the titan.

Stop acting like a complete blithering moron. Its quite unbecoming.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#230 - 2015-05-04 03:48:58 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

SP wall leaping mechanic was used, which is an exception. In which case, literally anyone could be in his place. High SP or low SP just didn't matter in this situation anymore, thus negating the point of usefullness of any certain person, because it could've been anyone, and just being there with a tackle is not attributed to skill or any other factor.

Kashadin wrote:
If the answer is no, then you prove that the "SP wall" you keep frothing at the mouth about is just a construct of your mind and not a real in-game limiting factor when it comes to being useful.

The answer is "SP wall is not related to your example, because an exception was used".

Kashadin wrote:
A pilots ability, or lack there-of, comes from what that pilot is willing to do not how many SP that person has.

I'm willing to pilot a carrier... oh wait not enough SP.
Sarcasm aside, a pilot's ability is hard-limited by what he has SP for.

Kashadin wrote:
Hell, PVE has a harder SP wall than PVP ever will. I can find a place in my fleet for anyone of any skill and SP lvl when going on a roam as long as that person will listen to orders. And any person can find some PVP at any size ship that they can fly. But what you WILL NOT see happen is people taking "sub optimal" skills when it comes to group PVE and even most solo PVE has a form of "SP wall" when it comes to what type of fits/ships do best.

And even the PVE "SP wall" is mostly bull when it comes down to it because there are always different, tho less efficient, ways of doing the PVE content in this game.

PvE has almost no SP wall at all. You can still "win" a relatively high level PvE content like L4 in a faction cruiser with far imperfect skills. In PvP, this will NEVER happen, thus is why it's a wall there, and not a wall in PvE, as in PvE it doesn't prevent "win", it just makes it take longer. Top level PvE content requires a lot of SP as well, of course, but it's not like PvP where you can't do anything at all until you made it to 50 million starting point. Not to mention that, unlike in PvP, specializing in PvE actually works - there is no enemy who counters you with more SP there.
Place in your fleet is an SP wall leaping mechanic, which indeed allows anyone to be 5th wheel in your fleet and still feel not useless. This exception does not change the general rule.
Finding some PvP at any ship size is a lie so obvious I'm not even going to comment on it. Talk to gatecampers about it.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2015-05-04 03:49:58 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.




Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

If the answer is no, then you prove that the "SP wall" you keep frothing at the mouth about is just a construct of your mind and not a real in-game limiting factor when it comes to being useful.


A pilots ability, or lack there-of, comes from what that pilot is willing to do not how many SP that person has.


Hell, PVE has a harder SP wall than PVP ever will. I can find a place in my fleet for anyone of any skill and SP lvl when going on a roam as long as that person will listen to orders. And any person can find some PVP at any size ship that they can fly. But what you WILL NOT see happen is people taking "sub optimal" skills when it comes to group PVE and even most solo PVE has a form of "SP wall" when it comes to what type of fits/ships do best.

And even the PVE "SP wall" is mostly bull when it comes down to it because there are always different, tho less efficient, ways of doing the PVE content in this game.


You're still missing the point. It's been said about 5 times now that flying with a blob is the best way to mitigate a skill gap. That gap becomes alot more noticeable in smaller engagements and locks a new pilot out of doing things on his own.


And you are missing the point that without the hero tackle, who may have a fraction of the SP of the pilot being tackled, is crucial. Jumping in 50 dreads after the titan jumped out is freaking pointless.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#232 - 2015-05-04 03:50:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.


Dude, train reading level 1. Roll

I said that the titan pilot was initially captured by a player/character with a fraction of the SP of the titan pilot. Yeah, he'd never solo the titan.

Stop acting like a complete blithering moron. Its quite unbecoming.


Dude, train reading level 1. Roll

The word "unless" means exactly that the case going after it is out of scope.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#233 - 2015-05-04 03:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

SP wall leaping mechanic was used, which is an exception. In which case, literally anyone could be in his place. High SP or low SP just didn't matter in this situation anymore, thus negating the point of usefullness of any certain person, because it could've been anyone, and just being there with a tackle is not attributed to skill or any other factor.


Oh baloney. That lone dictor is...a lone tackler until the cavalry arrives. He is crucial. And new players can fill crucial and important roles such as scouting, tackle, or just lighting a damn cyno at just the right damn time.

Do SP matter. Yes.

Are SP all that matter, no...not by a long shot.

So get off your stupid high horse. You look perfectly ridiculous tilting at this windmill.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#234 - 2015-05-04 03:58:18 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.


Dude, train reading level 1. Roll

I said that the titan pilot was initially captured by a player/character with a fraction of the SP of the titan pilot. Yeah, he'd never solo the titan.

Stop acting like a complete blithering moron. Its quite unbecoming.


Dude, train reading level 1. Roll

The word "unless" means exactly that the case going after it is out of scope.


Which was stupid beyond any measure because we both know he would not solo a titan.

The point still stands, when a lone pilot hero tackles a high value target who often has multiple SP of the tackler...suddenly your "SP Wall" becomes much, much less surmountable. Could it have been some other relatively speaking "new guy", sure, but you so what? It would still be a relatively speaking, new guy playing a crucial role.

In other words, even a 6+ year veteran should not take a year old player lightly....depending on the situation. Of course, admitting this undermines your already precarious hypothesis.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#235 - 2015-05-04 03:58:19 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
And you are missing the point that without the hero tackle, who may have a fraction of the SP of the pilot being tackled, is crucial. Jumping in 50 dreads after the titan jumped out is freaking pointless.

And you are missing the point that without 50 dreads, hero tackle is useless.
And if you are in fleet with 50 dreads, it's an SP wall leaping mechanic, in which case even my dog could've been the hero tackle with the same effect.
What I'm saying, the fleet would've been equally effective with 49 dreads and a 50th dread pilot reshipping to hero tackle. It doesn't need the 5th wheel of a newbie in a hero tackle. He just happened to be there, anyone could be there, it's not because of skill or anything other than luck/fate/you-name-it. This only means that without dreads in his fleet he would've been useless.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#236 - 2015-05-04 04:01:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Which was stupid beyond any measure because we both know he would not solo a titan.

The point still stands, when a lone pilot hero tackles a high value target who often has multiple SP of the tackler...suddenly your "SP Wall" becomes much, much less surmountable. Could it have been some other relatively speaking "new guy", sure, but you so what? It would still be a relatively speaking, new guy playing a crucial role.

In other words, even a 6+ year veteran should not take a year old player lightly....depending on the situation. Of course, admitting this undermines your already precarious hypothesis.


Which is why I added the word "damn" to show I perfectly know that this case isn't real, to ease your lack of reading comprehension skills, and it didn't help one bit, because apparently you're too goony to have any.

The point still stands, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic is used, that could be literally everyone, even a bot or a monkey, so SP is not related to this case.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#237 - 2015-05-04 04:05:39 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?


Unless he solo'd the damn titan, he were in a fleet, which means he were using SP wall leaping mechanic. Anyone could be in the dictor in their place, as long as SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet with people who are over SP wall is used, or bringing enough combined SP to out-SP the opposition, it's just reinforcing my point.




Was he useless tho? Would a pilot who can only fly a T1 frig be useless to a PVP scenario if they were the person to hero tackle a high value target?

If the answer is no, then you prove that the "SP wall" you keep frothing at the mouth about is just a construct of your mind and not a real in-game limiting factor when it comes to being useful.


A pilots ability, or lack there-of, comes from what that pilot is willing to do not how many SP that person has.


Hell, PVE has a harder SP wall than PVP ever will. I can find a place in my fleet for anyone of any skill and SP lvl when going on a roam as long as that person will listen to orders. And any person can find some PVP at any size ship that they can fly. But what you WILL NOT see happen is people taking "sub optimal" skills when it comes to group PVE and even most solo PVE has a form of "SP wall" when it comes to what type of fits/ships do best.

And even the PVE "SP wall" is mostly bull when it comes down to it because there are always different, tho less efficient, ways of doing the PVE content in this game.


You're still missing the point. It's been said about 5 times now that flying with a blob is the best way to mitigate a skill gap. That gap becomes alot more noticeable in smaller engagements and locks a new pilot out of doing things on his own.



And I'm telling you that even at small scale engagements the fact that ships can only have a certain number of skills used at any given time means that the gap between a newer player and a older player is not nearly as big as you would like to make it seem like.


Exactly. I have 18.5 million SP in gunnery. When I fly in a t2 frig, most of those SP are meaningless. As are all of my nearly 5 million SP in missiles. And if it isn't a drone boat, then my 9 million SP in drones are useless too. So out of my 116 million SP, 24 million become useless. If I'm not in a wing command or squad command position my 4.7 million SP In leadership mean **** all. Now we are closing in on 29 million SP that just don't matter. Oh and all my SP for battleships, carriers, dreads, tactical weapons reconfiguration...meaningless too. Why **** me we are at about what 30...35 million SP that just don't matter. And how important are 3.5 million SP in JDC V and JDO V in such a situation? Useless too. I might as well be a 76 million SP pilot at this point which would mean that so far about 35% of my SP are just plain useless.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#238 - 2015-05-04 04:08:08 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
And you are missing the point that without the hero tackle, who may have a fraction of the SP of the pilot being tackled, is crucial. Jumping in 50 dreads after the titan jumped out is freaking pointless.

And you are missing the point that without 50 dreads, hero tackle is useless.
And if you are in fleet with 50 dreads, it's an SP wall leaping mechanic, in which case even my dog could've been the hero tackle with the same effect.
What I'm saying, the fleet would've been equally effective with 49 dreads and a 50th dread pilot reshipping to hero tackle. It doesn't need the 5th wheel of a newbie in a hero tackle. He just happened to be there, anyone could be there, it's not because of skill or anything other than luck/fate/you-name-it. This only means that without dreads in his fleet he would've been useless.


Yes they need each other. Which is why all your butthurt in this thread is pointless.

BTW, excellent job with hijacking. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#239 - 2015-05-04 04:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Pupkin
Since apparently our goon friend have problems understanding plain english, I will relay the rule and exceptions and underline the problem once more.

The rule (intentionally oversimplified form for the goonie to understand it, some detail have been lost in simplification): "More SP = WIN".

The 3 exceptions (SP wall leaping mechanics):
1) Being 5th wheel in a fleet of people over SP wall - most common scenario, where newbie is added to the fleet and does something which any fleet member could've done if the newbie weren't there.
2) The BRAVE way - bring more collective SP on the field to out-SP the opposition. May require 7x advantage in numbers to outmass the enemy SP blob, but effectively creates a fleet which is over SP wall even if almost everyone in it is under, by sheer mass.
3) The enemy self-destructed by not using his SP properly (brain fart exception).

The problem: Neither of those are wins.

1) It's the fleet's win and your contribution to it is irrelevant.
2) You will lose a lot more than you kill that way, even if it's your side left standing on the field.
3) Enemy have tripped by himself and you were just one of many bumps on the road.

The problem, more outline: There is no way to win in eve combat PvP even within exceptions, until you're over SP wall yourself. You can't bend the rule.

P.S. I totally expect our goon friend to read one line in the end and pick on one word of it without even understanding what it means, but hey, he has a chance to prove me wrong.

ED:

Teckos Pech wrote:


Yes they need each other. Which is why all your butthurt in this thread is pointless.

BTW, excellent job with hijacking. Roll


The hero tackle need the rest of the fleet. The rest of the fleet can just lol and delegate a new hero tackle from its numbers.

The thread has been made by a grief deccer on a topic of being a risk-averse grief deccer advocating his victims to undock and entertain him by losing less ISK while doing it. This is stupid and pointless to begin with and I went great length to explain why to the most thick-headed guys in the lot.

I wonder when some other former "elite hisec peeveepeer" will grab the idea of just giving SRP to his victims for his entertainment?

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Amy Undergood
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
#240 - 2015-05-04 04:27:18 UTC
Basil, once again proving that you don't need a long neck and feathers to be a goose.

Your one-man band of misinformation will never succeed. Luckily, everyone else just sees straight through the rubbish.