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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

First post
Author
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#321 - 2015-04-22 08:24:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Its people like you who are killing Eve.

The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left.


This despite the verified fact that the people who get ganked or killed in a war are by far the most likely to resub and play for a longer time. Meanwhile, the people who just mine or shoot red crosses all day quit of boredom at a far higher rate. Looks like it's the exact opposite of what you're claiming, hmm?

But hey, the truth doesn't matter to carebears, I learned that a long time ago. Gotta advance that narrative, even if God himself comes down to tell you that it's a lie.


Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort.

Carebear ho hum, one who has done more PvP than you sarge...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#322 - 2015-04-22 08:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
You sir are not very good at dickfencing


Was that an echo I heard there...

I see that you were in that battle with Absolute Defiance, was that fun?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#323 - 2015-04-22 08:25:43 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort.


WIth what? Your Star Citizen anecdote? Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Danalee
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#324 - 2015-04-22 08:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Wrong thread... This is the alt/trollbait one.

/ignore or delete please.

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#325 - 2015-04-22 08:28:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort.


WIth what? Your Star Citizen anecdote? Roll


Small sample yes, but still and interesting result, personally I found doing that analysis on 15 day old trial accounts only relevant to 15 day trial accounts, but as I used to do statistical analysis at a very professional level you can ignore me...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#326 - 2015-04-22 08:31:43 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Oh god you are not quoting that again, it has already been proved that it is a very shallow analysis of 15 day old toons, this is why engaging with you is a waste of time and effort.


WIth what? Your Star Citizen anecdote? Roll


Small sample yes, but still and interesting result, personally I found doing that analysis on 15 day old trial accounts only relevant to 15 day trial accounts, but as I used to do statistical analysis at a very professional level you can ignore me...


Forgive me if I put less credence in your complete lack of facts, than I do actual studies done by CCP themselves.

I know you deny their veracity because you don't want them to be true, but that does not make them any less the truth.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#327 - 2015-04-22 08:33:16 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The agents will be available in certain structures, which I hope CCP do for hisec.

I think your not so far apart from me, apart from the fact I feel that there is a place in Eve for people who just want to do their own thing and want them to stay in the game to keep the money rolling in for CCP.

I am 100% against anyone being able to avoid the game's standard forms of interaction. I don't care how many millions of dollars CCP can pull from the LCDs by giving them a pvp toggle; it's bad for the game. If they want to make a new game in which the meek don't have to worry about getting their stuff blown up, by all means they should. But EVE should stay it is, because it is the only such game out there.

That, or give me a different game based on the principles that EVE was founded on. Then they can do whatever they want to this one.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#328 - 2015-04-22 08:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Danalee wrote:
I think it's broken in a way that it lacks meaning.

The way forward should in my opinion be a combination of things;
- Having a CORP/Alliance shouldn't be as empty as it is.
-> maybe each corp should have a structure by default? A home base of sorts?
-> maybe the system where the structure resides could have a form of boosts of the cop's chosing?
-> maybe destroying/entosising (is that a word?) this structure would mean defeat for the corp?
-> maybe defeat would result in bad stuff happening to the corp? A fixed tax that goes to the winner untill the warfees are covered? dunno... ideas welcome.

- NPC corps should be a thing for newbies only. Real newbies.

- Wars should have goals for both parties and the fees should be adapted to those goals.

D.

Bear


The new structures as long as they do not get nerfed by the Grrr hisec brigade should result in people wanting to own them, however on the flip side those that cannot defend them should not bother, as people say in Eve, if you cannot defend it you do not deserve to have it.

Those structures will have benefits including their own market, their own agents, maybe some boosts if the grrr hisec don't get in the way of that

Losing an expensive structure is already a major defeat.

NPC corps should continue as they are, because the game needs subs.

The goal aspect will come with the structures, I was thinking that the a corp might setup a hub which can only be traded with by blues, if that hub gets attacked via a war dec then they pull in all their allies to defend it.

I can see you're thinking things through, good.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Black Pedro
Mine.
#329 - 2015-04-22 08:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Dracvlad wrote:
Its people like you who are killing Eve.

The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you.

I don't want to get dragged down into the standard mud-slingling match that this thread has descended into, but I am curious why you believe this. For the last 5 years, CCP has dropped nerf after nerf onto highsec making it increasingly safe. Certainly it has never been safer, yet you claim that only now, when highsec is at peak safety that people are getting tired of being prey and leaving the game? Should they not have done that years ago?

Do you at least think it is plausible that the trend to towards safety over recent years has made the game a less interesting place which is why subscriptions/players online has flatlined or decreased? Because from the direction CCP has taken lately (and CCP Seagull all but saying that) it is clear that CCP has concluded this and have been busy making nullsec and wormholes more dangerous places. It is only logical that they will continue this and highsec (and lowsec) is about to become at least a little more dangerous.

I am not as pessimistic as Destiny Corrupted. CCP will not pass up on the opportunity to drive conflict with these new structures and they (or at least the most lucrative of them) will be like POCOs unable to be taken down during a war. Pure industrial corps will have a harder time than ever competing while hiding behind the protection of CONCORD and this will be a boon for balanced corps with PvPers and to the mercenary marketplace who will accept the risk of a wardec for the increased rewards these structures will provide.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#330 - 2015-04-22 08:38:37 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The agents will be available in certain structures, which I hope CCP do for hisec.

I think your not so far apart from me, apart from the fact I feel that there is a place in Eve for people who just want to do their own thing and want them to stay in the game to keep the money rolling in for CCP.

I am 100% against anyone being able to avoid the game's standard forms of interaction. I don't care how many millions of dollars CCP can pull from the LCDs by giving them a pvp toggle; it's bad for the game. If they want to make a new game in which the meek don't have to worry about getting their stuff blown up, by all means they should. But EVE should stay it is, because it is the only such game out there.

That, or give me a different game based on the principles that EVE was founded on. Then they can do whatever they want to this one.


Did I say that I wanted to nerf ganking, nope, the only thing I want to see is a few more meaningful penalties, like losing docking rights... The meek still need a place to have some peace, but you can still gank them.

Well a lot of them are going to play Star Citizen, with their PvP bar set to 0, which is what I am going to do to, originally I was not, but decided to keep playing Eve to play against player killers and play Star Citizen for immersion only.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#331 - 2015-04-22 08:41:48 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Did I say that I wanted to nerf ganking, nope, the only thing I want to see is a few more meaningful penalties


Roll

I love how those are both in the same sentence, even. It's not enough that a full third of the potential risk of highsec disappeared in the past year, he wants even more nerfs.

Quote:
The meek still need a place to have some peace


Never.

Quote:

Well a lot of them are going to play Star Citizen, with their PvP bar set to 0


Good. They don't belong, and they never have.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#332 - 2015-04-22 08:49:49 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Its people like you who are killing Eve.

The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you.

I don't want to get dragged down into the standard mud-slingling match that this thread has descended into, but I am curious why you believe this. For the last 5 years, CCP has dropped nerf after nerf onto highsec making it increasingly safe. Certainly it has never been safer, yet you claim that only now, when highsec is at peak safety that people are getting tired of being prey and leaving the game? Should they not have done that years ago?

Do you at least think it is plausible that the trend to towards safety over recent years has made the game a less interesting place which is why subscruptions/players online has flatlined or decreased? Because from the direction CCP has taken lately (and CCP Seagull all but saying that) it is clear that CCP has concluded this and have been busy making nullsec and wormholes more dangerous places. It is only logical that they will continue this and highsec (and lowsec) is about to become at least a little more dangerous.

I am not a pessimistic as Destiny Corrupted. CCP will not pass up on the opportunity to drive conflict with these new structures and they (or at least the most lucrative of them) will be like POCOs unable to be taken down during a war. Pure industrial corps will have a harder time then ever competing while hiding behind the protection of CONCORD and this will be a boon for balanced corps with PvPers and to the mercenary marketplace who will accept the risk of a wardec for the increased rewards these structures will provide.


I won't do that with you, because even though we have different views, you are open minded having read your posts quite often, you might notice I liked a number of your posts.

The nerfing of hisec combat, its more like nerfing unexpected combat, can baiting has been replaced by suspect baiting, which means that instead of having fun blowing up a mining ship or hauler, you have fun blowing up a PvP fit ship. Thats a nerf I guess. When I hear people come on and rage about the loss of ways to trick defenceless people into getting blown up I laugh and feel a certain amount of contempt, I can't help it, the changes are easier to understand and now make it so people can risk having a fight, some people do suspect baiting very well, I watched a fun one develop in Kaap earlier. For certain players that is a nerf, the defenceless prey is harder to trick, on the flip side real reasons to avoid hisec fighting has been removed. For many years I did not bother with hisec wars because of the legions of RR alts that you could not touch, when that changed my attitude changed. Those same people see that as a nerf, but Destiny to her credit did not.

What Lucas has described has been the impact on high sec indy corps and the structure he has laid out is what they have developed into, many of those left are now feeling the strain of suicide ganking of their freighters, which is why I was doing my bit to stop that.

If structures give a benefit then people will stick their head up and perhaps try it, but they need to have allies, there are some groups that might gang together and join in war decs as defenders, but it will take time to develop that thinking, the issue is that there are so many bored people looking for easy kills that they descend on anyone before they have a chance to build anything.



When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#333 - 2015-04-22 08:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Did I say that I wanted to nerf ganking, nope, the only thing I want to see is a few more meaningful penalties


Roll

I love how those are both in the same sentence, even. It's not enough that a full third of the potential risk of highsec disappeared in the past year, he wants even more nerfs.

Quote:
The meek still need a place to have some peace


Never.

Quote:

Well a lot of them are going to play Star Citizen, with their PvP bar set to 0


Good. They don't belong, and they never have.


Balance is what is needed sarge, the balance is out of kilter in terms of consequences for ganking, thats my opinion, and its not yours.

Well as for the word Never, get out and gank someone then instead of skulking in Uedama station.

EDIT: Those people have already largely left, you only have the die hards now...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#334 - 2015-04-22 08:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Its people like you who are killing Eve.

The reason why there is less and less getting blown up in hisec is that so many hisec people who don't follow your ideas have left or hardly play, most of the prey have left. Excuse me for pointing out a truth but your last kill was last year, you are currently sitting in a station in Uedama, the only special snowflake who is not playing is you.

I don't want to get dragged down into the standard mud-slingling match that this thread has descended into, but I am curious why you believe this. For the last 5 years, CCP has dropped nerf after nerf onto highsec making it increasingly safe. Certainly it has never been safer, yet you claim that only now, when highsec is at peak safety that people are getting tired of being prey and leaving the game? Should they not have done that years ago?

Do you at least think it is plausible that the trend to towards safety over recent years has made the game a less interesting place which is why subscruptions/players online has flatlined or decreased? Because from the direction CCP has taken lately (and CCP Seagull all but saying that) it is clear that CCP has concluded this and have been busy making nullsec and wormholes more dangerous places. It is only logical that they will continue this and highsec (and lowsec) is about to become at least a little more dangerous.

I am not a pessimistic as Destiny Corrupted. CCP will not pass up on the opportunity to drive conflict with these new structures and they (or at least the most lucrative of them) will be like POCOs unable to be taken down during a war. Pure industrial corps will have a harder time then ever competing while hiding behind the protection of CONCORD and this will be a boon for balanced corps with PvPers and to the mercenary marketplace who will accept the risk of a wardec for the increased rewards these structures will provide.

It's that psychological effect where the easier something is to do, the less a person wants to bother doing it. It's like when you have a full day ahead of you, you just kind of man up and do it, but when your only chore is to walk half a block to buy some bread, you don't even want to bother putting on your pants.

See, I can make a nice analogy here. Imagine a river that flows in one direction. Some people have to paddle really hard against the current, while the others take it nice and easy going downstream, only occasionally having to steer a little bit. And every year, that river speeds up. The people going upstream have to work harder and harder with the paddles, growing ever stronger and more skillful at navigating the current. The people going downstream, on the other hand, spend less and less time in the river, because they reach their destination quicker every year, resulting in ever-decreasing labor requirements.

And then one day, the river is blocked off by a hydroelectric dam that's built to power a system of rails and carts alongside the river. Now the people who spent their entire lives paddling no longer have anything to do, and their skills and fitness are wasted. They have to leave for better opportunities somewhere else. Meanwhile, the ones who always went downstream can now sleep through the entire trip.

Call me a pessimist. Someday, CCP will remove wars. They've already set the precedent for it. They'll keep implementing their "conflict drivers" until they finally reach a point where there's no conflict left.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#335 - 2015-04-22 08:57:05 UTC
I think that it would be a major mistake to remove wars, and I think you are being pessimistic.

I am looking forward to seeing just how these structures develop in hisec and hope that CCP make them so they have real benefits.

The balance in terms of war dec's seem about right, both sides moan equally about them, always a good sign...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#336 - 2015-04-22 09:02:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Balance is what is needed sarge, the balance is out of kilter in terms of consequences for ganking, thats my opinion, and its not yours.


You don't want balance. You might claim you do, but it's already so grossly in your favor already that it's plain to see the truth of the matter.

When balance does come, and I suspect that it will, you and your kind will be crying loud enough to throw the moon off it's orbit. When balance does come, it will be a big net loss of safety in highsec. Because if they don't start promoting accessible and meaningful conflict, they may as well just shut the servers off.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#337 - 2015-04-22 09:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
They're going to do something insane like implement a system wherein it's only possible to declare war on entities that launch/own public-use property, while at the same time marginalizing the benefits of said property to inconsequential levels, or giving players alternative, maybe slightly less-efficient (think the difference between NPC tax and owning a player corporation today) solutions without opening them up to war. They're already doing something very similar with "social corps."

Anyone who doesn't see this is either too naive, or doesn't want to face the truth staring them in the eyes.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#338 - 2015-04-22 09:09:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Balance is what is needed sarge, the balance is out of kilter in terms of consequences for ganking, thats my opinion, and its not yours.


You don't want balance. You might claim you do, but it's already so grossly in your favor already that it's plain to see the truth of the matter.

When balance does come, and I suspect that it will, you and your kind will be crying loud enough to throw the moon off it's orbit. When balance does come, it will be a big net loss of safety in highsec. Because if they don't start promoting accessible and meaningful conflict, they may as well just shut the servers off.


You really believe its in the favour of who?

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have been out there trying to save freighters, I have seen how much the mechanics make it easy to loot scoop with no consequences, I have seen how the mechanics get skilfully manipulated, I respect the people who do ganking because they are so damn efficient at it, and yet the mechanics really get n the way of the anti-gankers too.

The ganking of freighters in hisec is a high level strategic aim of the Goons, so the people doing it have no skin in the game, its all funded by mother Goon.

There are some fun fights occurring around all of this, but you of course are sitting in a station with no ganks, get out and do one so I can shoot you...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#339 - 2015-04-22 09:17:53 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They're going to do something insane like implement a system wherein it's only possible to declare war on entities that launch/own public-use property, while at the same time marginalizing the benefits of said property to inconsequential levels, or giving players alternative, maybe slightly less-efficient (think the difference between NPC tax and owning a player corporation today) solutions without opening them up to war. They're already doing something very similar with "social corps."

Anyone who doesn't see this is either too naive, or doesn't want to face the truth staring them in the eyes.


That is a good post, yeah you might be right in terms of limiting the war dec to people who have such skin in the game, it might not be such a bad thing, but the nerf in this is that its more difficult to attack people who are not ready and willing to fight, all you have left is ganking, which of course should at that point have the removal of concord and a more realistic Empire navy reaction and consequences like loss of docking, I hate Concord to be blunt.

But one of the reasons why the war dec system is a destructive mess is that there are no benefits to either side, well only the aggressors in terms of green killboards of cheap ships shuttles and pods. And I get the chance to go after a GTFO ship, wow...

I can hardly stir myself to go kill a Marmite for example, chasing GTFO ships I had my fill off in 0.0, in the end I used to just Falcon them, which was amusing to see them whine in local about a good fight until Falcon, and I would reply a bit rich from someone in a GTFO ship, lol, you should have seen the rage.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#340 - 2015-04-22 09:20:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They are a way for certain war groups to switch off concord
That's what it's for.

See, even CCP can't really deny that highsec is bad for the game, and that Concord's present state was a mistake. But since they also, more than almost anything else, cave in to whining, they can't just savagely nerf Concord like they should. So we have wars, where at the cost of contributing to the isk sink, you can make Concord go away against certain people.

Wars exist to mitigate the mechanics that never should have existed in the first place.
Concord works as intended, as a consequence for violence in high security space. You need to get used to the fact that concord will always exist in highsec. You complain because highsec isn't lowsec, yet refuse to live in lowsec.

When they were limited wars were used for people wanting to attack certain groups of people. Now that you can have hundreds of wars without issues they are purely used for farming the bottom rung players. The problem isn't concord, it's overly simplistic wardec mechanics.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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