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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance Part 2

First post First post First post
Author
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#141 - 2015-04-02 19:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Talvorian Dex
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Some quick questions for clarification:

CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • The first cycle of the module is always a "warmup cycle" and has no impact. If you lose lock or the module is disabled for any reason, you'll need to go through that warmup cycle again before you can continue exerting any influence over the structure
  • Other than that warmup cycle, the cycle time of the module does not impact how long it takes to capture a structure. Once you're past the warmup cycle all that matters is that your module stays active

  • Does this mean that if multiple ships are trading Entosis Links on a structure that each ship needs to run its own warm-up cycle? Like, if the structure is capturing right now, and I activate my module 10 seconds before my allies de-activates, do I need to go through a full cycle before I start progressing the capture timer or do I start capturing right away because my side already had an active capture going on when I activated my module?


    Quote:

    • +250,000 mass when online
    • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
    • ...
    • +1,000,000 mass when online
    • 100 PWG, 10 CPU


    Can you share the process behind picking these numbers? They seem to roughly match up to Meta 4 400mm and 800mm plates respectively but that still seems like a significant amount of weight in any sort of speed reliant fit.

    Also the power-grid requirements are pretty high for anything not at least the size of a Cruiser (ignoring T3 Destroyers for the moment) so does this mean you guys feel that's about the minimum bar that's likely to be relevant in Sov as a fleet composition?



    That's kind of the point... the big complaint was in having a speed-reliant fit using it. CCP clearly wants us to focus on grid control, not running faster than the enemy can catch you, while entosising. I'd rather prefer the same rules as a cyno... it brings you to a stop. But this is better, and overcomes the objections about a "flee-fit" ship using it.

    Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com

    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #142 - 2015-04-02 20:26:18 UTC
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    What about size and tech differences? There's enough new stats to add some extra trade-offs.

    Small Entosis Link I:

    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 1
    • +250,000 mass when online
    • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range
    • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
    • 50 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 10 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~20m

    • Small Entosis Link II:
    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
    • +225,000 mass when online
    • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 35km range
    • 12 PWG, 1 CPU
    • 45 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 8 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~50m


    Standard Entosis Link I:

    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 2
    • +1,000,000 mass when online
    • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 200km range
    • 100 PWG, 10 CPU
    • 500 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 4 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~80m

    • Standard Entosis Link II:
    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
    • +900,000 mass when online
    • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range
    • 120 PWG, 10 CPU
    • 450 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 3 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~120m


    I like this. Wouldn't mind 3 sizes small mid large maybe even xl for caps. What would be interesting too is if a capture event caused small medium large and xl sized targets that can only be hacked by tge corresponding elink size. So only
    A small link can capture a small capture tower and so on... maybe it could be linear so first ypu have to capture small tgen mid tgen large and the 10th capture can only be done with an xl link from a capital ship.

    That goes against the idea of this new sov system not requiring specific ships or fits to work.


    Perhaps... i just like the idea of 1. Making capitals integration into the new system and requirements of all ship classes to do a full capture. That way to conquer something it needs more than just one ship type. I am thinking something similar to fw plexes but with elinks instead and since no jump gates need different ship sizes... i am good either way i think though my idea would provide more diversity

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    Jenshae Chiroptera
    #143 - 2015-04-02 20:45:42 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:
    . I am thinking something similar to fw plexes
    You and Fozzie both. Ugh

    CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

    Not even once

    EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #144 - 2015-04-02 20:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    MeBiatch wrote:
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    What about size and tech differences? There's enough new stats to add some extra trade-offs.

    Small Entosis Link I:

    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 1
    • +250,000 mass when online
    • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range
    • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
    • 50 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 10 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~20m

    • Small Entosis Link II:
    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
    • +225,000 mass when online
    • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 35km range
    • 12 PWG, 1 CPU
    • 45 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 8 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~50m


    Standard Entosis Link I:

    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 2
    • +1,000,000 mass when online
    • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 200km range
    • 100 PWG, 10 CPU
    • 500 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 4 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~80m

    • Standard Entosis Link II:
    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
    • +900,000 mass when online
    • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range
    • 120 PWG, 10 CPU
    • 450 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 3 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~120m


    I like this. Wouldn't mind 3 sizes small mid large maybe even xl for caps. What would be interesting too is if a capture event caused small medium large and xl sized targets that can only be hacked by tge corresponding elink size. So only
    A small link can capture a small capture tower and so on... maybe it could be linear so first ypu have to capture small tgen mid tgen large and the 10th capture can only be done with an xl link from a capital ship.

    That goes against the idea of this new sov system not requiring specific ships or fits to work.


    Perhaps... i just like the idea of 1. Making capitals integration into the new system and requirements of all ship classes to do a full capture. That way to conquer something it needs more than just one ship type. I am thinking something similar to fw plexes but with elinks instead and since no jump gates need different ship sizes... i am good either way i think though my idea would provide more diversity


    Hold on, so to capture some backwater, -0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 sec almost-abandoned system in the middle of nowhere, which has, lets say two belts, no good moons at all - An Official Ceremony must be Conducted, involving HIS MAJESTY the CAPITAL SHIP with a magic wand sitting at some structure for X minutes, with tumbleweed rolling around all the while.

    People say, "Get rekt" in such cases, but that wouldn't be korrekt. vOv Yeah, that will bring out real dynamic content and more players into Niul and throughout the game, surely.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #145 - 2015-04-02 21:07:01 UTC
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    What about size and tech differences? There's enough new stats to add some extra trade-offs.

    Small Entosis Link I:

    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 1
    • +250,000 mass when online
    • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 25km range
    • 10 PWG, 1 CPU
    • 50 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 10 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~20m

    • Small Entosis Link II:
    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
    • +225,000 mass when online
    • 5 Minute Cycle Time, 35km range
    • 12 PWG, 1 CPU
    • 45 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 8 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~50m


    Standard Entosis Link I:

    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 2
    • +1,000,000 mass when online
    • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 200km range
    • 100 PWG, 10 CPU
    • 500 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 4 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~80m

    • Standard Entosis Link II:
    • Requires Infomorph Psychology 4
    • +900,000 mass when online
    • 2 Minute Cycle Time, 250km range
    • 120 PWG, 10 CPU
    • 450 Capacitor per cycle
    • Consumes 3 Stront per cycle
    • Cost ~120m


    I like this. Wouldn't mind 3 sizes small mid large maybe even xl for caps. What would be interesting too is if a capture event caused small medium large and xl sized targets that can only be hacked by tge corresponding elink size. So only
    A small link can capture a small capture tower and so on... maybe it could be linear so first ypu have to capture small tgen mid tgen large and the 10th capture can only be done with an xl link from a capital ship.

    That goes against the idea of this new sov system not requiring specific ships or fits to work.


    Perhaps... i just like the idea of 1. Making capitals integration into the new system and requirements of all ship classes to do a full capture. That way to conquer something it needs more than just one ship type. I am thinking something similar to fw plexes but with elinks instead and since no jump gates need different ship sizes... i am good either way i think though my idea would provide more diversity


    Hold on, so to capture some backwater, -0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 sec almost-abandoned system in the middle of nowhere, which has, lets say two belts, no good moons at all - An Official Ceremony must be Conducted, involving HIS MAJESTY the CAPITAL SHIP with a magic wand sitting at some structure for X minutes, with tumbleweed rolling around all the while.

    People say, "Get rekt" in such cases, but that wouldn't be korrekt. vOv Yeah, that will bring out real dynamic content and more players into Niul and throughout the game, surely.


    Hmm well caprure annoms size couod be based on tge occupancy index. So a system like you suggested might only end up needing medium sized e link to capture. But a systemthat has full occupancy index would go all tge way to capital elinks.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #146 - 2015-04-02 21:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    MeBiatch wrote:

    Hmm well caprure annoms size couod be based on tge occupancy index. So a system like you suggested might only end up needing medium sized e link to capture. But a systemthat has full occupancy index would go all tge way to capital elinks.


    Now, it does make sense. Let the people who want those V V V core system entertain their Capital Phantasies, allowing the majority of Eve engage in competitive, ruthless and unpredictable* PvP in the mid-tier developed... Shall we say - lucrative pieces of pie? Yes.

    *As opposed to, "Will they escalate with 1 mouse click?" FLOWCHART GOES -> Yes/No -> No -> Team 1 Wins. \o/

    Roll

    P.S. When do we deploy to NOL-? Ohhhhh... is it the wrong timeline? X Actors may change, but the concept of a full circle stays the same. You know who you are. Cool
    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #147 - 2015-04-02 21:19:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
    I have a question, on behalf of the smaller WH corps - what is there to stop a large nullsec alliance, coming in through some opportunistic door, kerb-stomping all over the locals (who CAN'T face down a 250-man fleet of harpies, sorry), then capturing the local tower for lols and loot, then leaving the system

    previously WH occupation (for the smaller corps) was a matter of who could out-guerrilla the other, the side that lasted the longest in the face of constant enemy harassment, won

    previously, the 24 hr window of WHs stopped nullsec (and the larger WH corps) stomping small WH corps for lolz, as they would merely reinforce a tower at best/worst, as they would (almost) certainly be unable to reach the same system the following day.
    (urgh that's unclear, basically - reinforcement timers, combined with shifting WH's, stopped nullsec alliances and big WH corps destroying a tower without serious reason to commit x people into a WH for a sustained period of time)

    or are you hoping to drastically reduce the number of small corps living out of WH's?

    if you could find some way to ensure that someone needs to commit to the takeover for longer than most WH's will be open, that'd be muchly appreciated, otherwise it's far to easy to blob in W-space

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Garnoo
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #148 - 2015-04-02 21:26:53 UTC
    iam probably missing something, but whats the point of having 1stront activation cost? smalles ships will be able to run it 30-50 or more times, so its as goot as no cost at all...

    People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back -  EvE

    Wanda Fayne
    #149 - 2015-04-02 22:11:01 UTC
    Garnoo wrote:
    iam probably missing something, but whats the point of having 1stront activation cost? smalles ships will be able to run it 30-50 or more times, so its as goot as no cost at all...


    It means you have to refuel every 150-250 minutes for T1 link use, 60-100 minutes for T2 link use (based on your numbers).

    Reasons should be obvious.

    "your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

    • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
    SFM Hobb3s
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #150 - 2015-04-02 22:29:29 UTC
    GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
    cause of course being in black legion a sovless entity that has always been thwarted by powerful sov owning entities, your view isnt coloured at all.

    You have no interests in sov or the mechanics of sov being balanced. and of course would like to see sov entities burn because of what you fail to do as an organisation; why the hell not push on the forums to achieve the objective through game mechanics right?


    You missed the part where I lived for years in Eve's shittiest corner of Sov space (Cobalt Edge) as part of IRC. But don't let your failure to check character history stop you from making baseless accusations.
    Manfred Sideous
    H A V O C
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #151 - 2015-04-02 23:08:10 UTC
    The Banking Clan will sign your treaty.

    @EveManny

    https://twitter.com/EveManny

    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #152 - 2015-04-02 23:27:14 UTC
    SFM Hobb3s wrote:
    GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
    cause of course being in black legion a sovless entity that has always been thwarted by powerful sov owning entities, your view isnt coloured at all.

    You have no interests in sov or the mechanics of sov being balanced. and of course would like to see sov entities burn because of what you fail to do as an organisation; why the hell not push on the forums to achieve the objective through game mechanics right?


    You missed the part where I lived for years in Eve's shittiest corner of Sov space (Cobalt Edge) as part of IRC. But don't let your failure to check character history stop you from making baseless accusations.


    Only thing better than old sckool irc was classic frege. Man do i miss those days

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #153 - 2015-04-02 23:36:55 UTC
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:

    Hmm well caprure annoms size couod be based on tge occupancy index. So a system like you suggested might only end up needing medium sized e link to capture. But a systemthat has full occupancy index would go all tge way to capital elinks.


    Now, it does make sense. Let the people who want those V V V core system entertain their Capital Phantasies, allowing the majority of Eve engage in competitive, ruthless and unpredictable* PvP in the mid-tier developed... Shall we say - lucrative pieces of pie? Yes.

    *As opposed to, "Will they escalate with 1 mouse click?" FLOWCHART GOES -> Yes/No -> No -> Team 1 Wins. \o/

    Roll

    P.S. When do we deploy to NOL-? Ohhhhh... is it the wrong timeline? X Actors may change, but the concept of a full circle stays the same. You know who you are. Cool



    So does this mean you support mu concept?

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    GeeShizzle MacCloud
    #154 - 2015-04-03 00:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
    SFM Hobb3s wrote:
    GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
    cause of course being in black legion a sovless entity that has always been thwarted by powerful sov owning entities, your view isnt coloured at all.

    You have no interests in sov or the mechanics of sov being balanced. and of course would like to see sov entities burn because of what you fail to do as an organisation; why the hell not push on the forums to achieve the objective through game mechanics right?


    You missed the part where I lived for years in Eve's shittiest corner of Sov space (Cobalt Edge) as part of IRC. But don't let your failure to check character history stop you from making baseless accusations.


    well i apologise that i didnt recognise that you spent from the 19th of feb 2011 to the 10th of september 2012 in sov nullsec space. if you consider that time period to be years (plural) then i guess you can when rounding the time up to 1 significant figure. but from my understanding you've spent far more time out of sov nullsec then inside it, especially in terms of your most recent time in the game.

    if you feel your views are more applicable because you view your time in IRC was akin to being enslaved in the worst part of nullsec and doing such penance means you feel entitled that your view is worth more than others dealing with sov nullsec currently then theres nothing much i can say to change how you feel, but i hope some objectivity might give you perspective.

    Consider that although dominion sov hasn't changed much at all in the years it had been introduced, the strategic game and the tools and techniques both mechanically in game and psychologically outside and running parallel to the game have advanced tenfold, it is essential to consider all aspects of these when thinking critically about the mechanics of the entosis links. Striking a balance so that it is challenging for both sides of equal mass skill and resources is i believe where ccp wants it to be.

    basically please try to be objective if you want to add to the debate, cause saying things like "i dont care, let all sov nullsec burn" is not helpful in trying to shape a good balanced system, and people like myself will retort in kind.
    Petrified
    Old and Petrified Syndication
    TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
    #155 - 2015-04-03 00:43:43 UTC
    I assume a ship using an entosis link can activate a cyno and, if capable, covert cyno?

    Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

    Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #156 - 2015-04-03 00:45:28 UTC
    Petrified wrote:
    I assume a ship using an entosis link can activate a cyno and, if capable, covert cyno?

    Best bait ever, the kind you can't ignore.
    Cade Windstalker
    #157 - 2015-04-03 03:37:28 UTC
    Rowells wrote:
    Petrified wrote:
    I assume a ship using an entosis link can activate a cyno and, if capable, covert cyno?

    Best bait ever, the kind you can't ignore.


    Okay, that's the best troll ever. Start using the Link on someone's stuff and then light a Cyno as soon as the warm-up cycle is over. Locals are left wondering if they should warp in or not because there's an open cyno but no local spike yet.
    Cade Windstalker
    #158 - 2015-04-03 03:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
    Alexandros T'dra wrote:
    "Consumes 1 Stront per cycle"

    Seems a rather low amount at just a mere 3 cubic meters. To prevent trolllogoffs behind the lines, increase this amount 10 fold. 30 cubic meters would give a frigate at least 8 to 10 cycles.


    Except the same applies to any BS with a decent ammo loadout and 10 cycles is, with a T2 link, 18 minutes of capture assuming you aren't interrupted in any way, and for the actual contest over the structure (as opposed to the initial reinforcement) you're looking at *at least* 10 of these timers to burn down.

    The fuel shouldn't be a significant impediment to capturing a system, but it should be there and be something you have to deal with because it mitigates some potentially problematic tactics, and if a fight goes on long enough then supply chains and other factors come into play in a big way.
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #159 - 2015-04-03 04:35:07 UTC
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Rowells wrote:
    Petrified wrote:
    I assume a ship using an entosis link can activate a cyno and, if capable, covert cyno?

    Best bait ever, the kind you can't ignore.


    Okay, that's the best troll ever. Start using the Link on someone's stuff and then light a Cyno as soon as the warm-up cycle is over. Locals are left wondering if they should warp in or not because there's an open cyno but no local spike yet.

    So you're consuming stront for the link and LO for the cyno, sounds balanced

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #160 - 2015-04-03 04:45:58 UTC
    Alavaria Fera wrote:
    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Rowells wrote:
    Petrified wrote:
    I assume a ship using an entosis link can activate a cyno and, if capable, covert cyno?

    Best bait ever, the kind you can't ignore.


    Okay, that's the best troll ever. Start using the Link on someone's stuff and then light a Cyno as soon as the warm-up cycle is over. Locals are left wondering if they should warp in or not because there's an open cyno but no local spike yet.

    So you're consuming stront for the link and LO for the cyno, sounds balanced

    Hope the cargo crew is up to game.

    "which container has the Strontium, we need it ASAP!"
    "Uhhhh, I think this one. Here, take it quick."
    *empties container into module fuel port*
    "Wait does that say 'Exotic Dancers' on the side?"