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Intaki Liberation
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Dailar Toralen
Toralen Industries
#121 - 2015-03-27 19:10:42 UTC
Okay look, everyone forget about Caldari Prime and the war unless it relates to the Intaki. This conversation turned from controversy over Intaki Freedom to accusations and I will not have the Intaki (even if I am one of the accusing ones, just not on this disccusion:Lol) disgraced by this.

We are Toralen Industries. It doesn't matter if you fight for money, idealogies, or because it's what you are good at and it doesn't matter if you fight threw trade, combat, or diplomacy. No matter what or how you fight, there's a place for you.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#122 - 2015-03-27 19:59:38 UTC
Dailar Toralen wrote:
I apologize, I understand where you are coming from. I just can't stand a member of the Villore Accord pretending to represent Caldari Prime.


*rolls his eyes* Here we go again.

Pilot Vero, a member of GMVA is from Caldari Prime, that would make it her HOME WORLD.

Multitudes of ethnic Gallenteans for several generations have been born on Caldari Prime. That would make it their HOME WORLD.

Luminaire VII - Caldari Prime is a temperate planet located in the system Luminaire which is sovereign system of The Federation.

Villore Accords amongst many other organizations are allied to one extend or another to The Federation.

Do I need to draw pictures to explain how all of this works?

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#123 - 2015-03-27 20:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Ugh. What's disgraceful is how utterly you are mischaracterizing what I've said here. Not once did I claim either on behalf of my Alliance or in my own Person to "represent" Caldari Prime. Never. I'm just tired of hearing you and those like you speak for people who's lives you know nothing about. Maybe instead of running your mouth you should actually listen to someone who lived in the place you would make your battlefield.

Maybe you should listen to someone who's already seen their childhood home devastated by war. Who grew up among her Caldari family who passed on the memory of the war fought before that.

You don't know me. You haven't fought me. You have no idea what I represent, so don't pretend you do.

Dailar Toralen wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:

Spare me the "my suffering home world" lament. I grew up on Caldari Prime. You don't speak for that planet any more than you do Intaki, boy.



I however do speak for Caldari Prime. Caldari Prime is our homeworld, and it is ours. This is the very proof required that the Federation's lies of freedom is just that, lies.

Rinai Vero wrote:
No. You don't. Caldari Prime isn't "yours." It belongs to the people who live there. You don't live there. Nor do I after all these years, but at least once upon a time I did. Your right to any sort of heritage from that Planet ends where the much abused peace and tranquility of those who live there now begins.

By all means visit. Light a candle, listen to the wind, remember your ancestors. Then get the frak out if you can't keep the peace.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2015-03-27 20:33:16 UTC
I'm beginning to believe that there is too much priority into the material aspect of Caldari Prime and the benign sense of ownership. How does one claim ownership of a planet..? A birthright..? What I am seeing is the absence of equity in favor of the simple value of a homestead that many of you no longer call home. Is it worth the injustice?

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#125 - 2015-03-27 22:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Nomistrav wrote:
I'm beginning to believe that there is too much priority into the material aspect of Caldari Prime and the benign sense of ownership. How does one claim ownership of a planet..? A birthright..? What I am seeing is the absence of equity in favor of the simple value of a homestead that many of you no longer call home. Is it worth the injustice?

We believe so. That's our decision to make, isn't it?

I truly believe that it is only contentious because we have the incredibly poor fortune to share our system of origin with the Gallente - a curse we first thought a blessing. Nobody else is routinely told that their claim to their homeworld is specious and, personally speaking, I am sick and tired of hearing the accusation made by those who have absolutely no idea how much psychic damage having ones home stolen inflicts on a people. Let's hear again how theft is ownership shall we - because that's what it's called when you take something from it's owner by force with no intention to return it. Theft.

So, yes, well done. The whole fragging smug parcel of you managed to make me upset by taunting me about the Homeworld again. What's next? Going to pick on me because I don't have any parents? Because I'm too tall? How proud you must all be.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#126 - 2015-03-27 22:32:02 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

So, yes, well done. The whole fragging smug parcel of you managed to make me upset by taunting me about the Homeworld again. What's next? Going to pick on me because I don't have any parents? Because I'm too tall? How proud you must all be.

Do you need a hug? Because I can give you a hug if you want.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2015-03-27 22:42:29 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
I'm beginning to believe that there is too much priority into the material aspect of Caldari Prime and the benign sense of ownership. How does one claim ownership of a planet..? A birthright..? What I am seeing is the absence of equity in favor of the simple value of a homestead that many of you no longer call home. Is it worth the injustice?

We believe so. That's our decision to make, isn't it?

I truly believe that it is only contentious because we have the incredibly poor fortune to share our system of origin with the Gallente - a curse we first thought a blessing. Nobody else is routinely told that their claim to their homeworld is specious and, personally speaking, I am sick and tired of hearing the accusation made by those who have absolutely no idea how much psychic damage having ones home stolen inflicts on a people. Let's hear again how theft is ownership shall we - because that's what it's called when you take something from it's owner by force with no intention to return it. Theft.

So, yes, well done. The whole fragging smug parcel of you managed to make me upset by taunting me about the Homeworld again. What's next? Going to pick on me because I don't have any parents? Because I'm too tall? How proud you must all be.


Interesting response. Out of curiosity, how did I, specifically, manage to make you upset regarding this..? Because I merely brought to question why the material ownership and titular birthright of your "homeworld", both consequently Caldari and Gallente, is worth so much hate..?

Can you answer why that is? Why it matters so much that either side should be granted that title? It seems that neither are worthy of it, honestly.. Neither are willing to compromise, to put aside petty violence of something so superficial..

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#128 - 2015-03-27 23:01:25 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
I'm beginning to believe that there is too much priority into the material aspect of Caldari Prime and the benign sense of ownership. How does one claim ownership of a planet..? A birthright..? What I am seeing is the absence of equity in favor of the simple value of a homestead that many of you no longer call home. Is it worth the injustice?

We believe so. That's our decision to make, isn't it?

I truly believe that it is only contentious because we have the incredibly poor fortune to share our system of origin with the Gallente - a curse we first thought a blessing. Nobody else is routinely told that their claim to their homeworld is specious and, personally speaking, I am sick and tired of hearing the accusation made by those who have absolutely no idea how much psychic damage having ones home stolen inflicts on a people. Let's hear again how theft is ownership shall we - because that's what it's called when you take something from it's owner by force with no intention to return it. Theft.

So, yes, well done. The whole fragging smug parcel of you managed to make me upset by taunting me about the Homeworld again. What's next? Going to pick on me because I don't have any parents? Because I'm too tall? How proud you must all be.


Monsieur Tuulinen,

It should be stated that I have not taunted you in any way. I called you out on using supposition in place of fact but that is not something I have done out of personal spite or ire, merely to point out the error of your argument.

I have time and again stated that I sympathize with your situation even though I cannot fully comprehend it because, as you've stated, I've never had something akin to my homeland taken from me.

However, Caldari Prime is not just the home of your people, it is also the home of many others and no matter what paths were tread to make it so, two wrongs do not make a right. They never have. The fact that our two peoples have gone back and forth inflicting wrongs to one another and still have not settled it should stand testament to that truth.

Cries of "there can be no peace until..." and "...our actions were completely justified because of..." will not bring us any closer to a resolution and healing, they will only serve to widen an already festering wound.

I am sorry you are upset but your people are not innocent in this affair anymore than we are. The debate is tired and worn in this venue, so if you really wish to debate it then feel free to contact me in person or over the FTL.

Either way, this thread has been sufficiently derailed and I will refrain from further off-topic input.



"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#129 - 2015-03-27 23:11:23 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

So, yes, well done. The whole fragging smug parcel of you managed to make me upset by taunting me about the Homeworld again. What's next? Going to pick on me because I don't have any parents? Because I'm too tall? How proud you must all be.

Do you need a hug? Because I can give you a hug if you want.


Yes, I need a hug.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#130 - 2015-03-27 23:56:40 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

So, yes, well done. The whole fragging smug parcel of you managed to make me upset by taunting me about the Homeworld again. What's next? Going to pick on me because I don't have any parents? Because I'm too tall? How proud you must all be.

Do you need a hug? Because I can give you a hug if you want.


Yes, I need a hug.

*hugs Pieter*

It will be ok....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#131 - 2015-03-28 00:16:54 UTC
Whatever. Pieter, you can play the wounded animal as you please. I've no sympathy when you're throwing scorn on so called "revisionist idiots" who simply have a different view of history than yours.

That's where the failure is in this too common, I'll call it "Dominionist" vein of Caldari thinking. It goes to the origin of conflict between our two peoples as well, and its founded in the concept of how a society should deal with rights of a minority. There will be no Intaki Morning of Reasoning. No Separatists forcing their Federation aligned brothers to drink poisoned tea. Even during the War there was no such day for those Intaki who sympathized with your Secession. Indeed, their ancestors are alive, even in exile. Their idea of Intaki "Liberty" from the Federation is tolerated today as a minority opinion, even as it was persecuted then.

And even despite the purge of CEOs who dissented against Secession, still there are other Caldari viewpoints than yours about Home. Some of them never left. Some of them will never leave, and you'll have to kill them to have your Dominion over Caldari Prime.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2015-03-28 00:58:01 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Whatever. Pieter, you can play the wounded animal as you please. I've no sympathy when you're throwing scorn on so called "revisionist idiots" who simply have a different view of history than yours.

That's where the failure is in this too common, I'll call it "Dominionist" vein of Caldari thinking. It goes to the origin of conflict between our two peoples as well, and its founded in the concept of how a society should deal with rights of a minority. There will be no Intaki Morning of Reasoning. No Separatists forcing their Federation aligned brothers to drink poisoned tea. Even during the War there was no such day for those Intaki who sympathized with your Secession. Indeed, their ancestors are alive, even in exile. Their idea of Intaki "Liberty" from the Federation is tolerated today as a minority opinion, even as it was persecuted then.

And even despite the purge of CEOs who dissented against Secession, still there are other Caldari viewpoints than yours about Home. Some of them never left. Some of them will never leave, and you'll have to kill them to have your Dominion over Caldari Prime.


A great man once said that, "In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher". Know that tolerance also goes both ways.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#133 - 2015-03-28 01:59:12 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
Whatever. Pieter, you can play the wounded animal as you please. I've no sympathy when you're throwing scorn on so called "revisionist idiots" who simply have a different view of history than yours.

That's where the failure is in this too common, I'll call it "Dominionist" vein of Caldari thinking. It goes to the origin of conflict between our two peoples as well, and its founded in the concept of how a society should deal with rights of a minority. There will be no Intaki Morning of Reasoning. No Separatists forcing their Federation aligned brothers to drink poisoned tea. Even during the War there was no such day for those Intaki who sympathized with your Secession. Indeed, their ancestors are alive, even in exile. Their idea of Intaki "Liberty" from the Federation is tolerated today as a minority opinion, even as it was persecuted then.

And even despite the purge of CEOs who dissented against Secession, still there are other Caldari viewpoints than yours about Home. Some of them never left. Some of them will never leave, and you'll have to kill them to have your Dominion over Caldari Prime.


A great man once said that, "In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher". Know that tolerance also goes both ways.


And sometimes those who preach tolerance are the most intolerant of all.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#134 - 2015-03-28 06:03:31 UTC
I want a cupcake.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#135 - 2015-03-28 08:36:54 UTC
Intaki Liberation was better back in my day.

**Vherokior **
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2015-03-28 13:42:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
But the man is right - the Federation burned our homeworld twice and settled occupiers on it. I really don't give a Damon about what they think are their rights - save where it is important for settling on a negotiated settlement.



Heh, see, its funny. I seem to recall that the only thing "burned" that day was a Leviathan class titan that had been in orbit holding the planet hostage. Or did you forget that there were Gallente citizens on Caldari Prime as well? See, seems to me that if the State had acquiesced to diplomatic relations then military intervention would never have been necessary in the system and nothing would have burned.

I am beginning to think that maybe, maybe the State doesn't actually want peace with the Federation. Maybe the reason the State hates the Federation so much is because it needs the Feds to be the boogieman, the all encroaching freedom-monster absorbing systems into its dominion like the Empire of old.

...Because if perhaps that wasn't true. If perhaps people like the Intaki for instance joined the Federation willingly, if perhaps things were not so bad in the Federation, then mayhaps the totalitarian rule of the all-knowing State might not be so appealing then. If it wasn't true, if the "frogs" were not all as bad as the corporate news and reports say, then by god, what sort of monster are you?

Liam Antolliere wrote:
Regarding your last two statements: The Intaki Assembly's vote to restrain Federal involvement in their affairs is one of the things that needs to be reassessed to give the Intaki a voice in the current astropolitical climate and decide whether they wish to amend Federal involvement or not, and (more importantly) if so, in what ways. Second, the Federation is hardly "pressuring" the Intaki - I do believe the crux of their plight is rather quite the opposite.


This is a losing prospect. If the Federation sends more military or police then we are oppressors, planting the Federations boot firmly on the back of the Intakis collective neck. Thugs and tyrants who must use brute strength to enforce loyalty. We leave the Intaki to govern their own fate and we are neglectful, ignoring the plight of our most vulnerable. We are doomed to be cast as the villain in either case.



Personally I feel ashamed and sick to my stomach that once again a discussion about the Intaki and Intaki independence has devolved into this. The Intaki people once again used as a political pawn in the conflict between the Caldari and Gallente. Brother, that ain't the way it should be.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#137 - 2015-03-28 14:46:08 UTC
This was never a discussion. It was a "declaration." It also never devolved. It was a fracking political ploy from the first post.
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-03-28 15:17:08 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
This was never a discussion. It was a "declaration." It also never devolved. It was a fracking political ploy from the first post.



And that is all the Intaki are ever treated as. A pawn, a political piece of a chess board to be moved around or captured for one side or another. It is a disgrace, an insult.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2015-03-28 15:57:39 UTC
I have just finished writing a very thoughtful bit on the subject of slavery. It's in another thread and I hope you like it.

Having found this thread immediately after, my brain took an odd turn.

We all know the Federation is not the sterling beacon of light they pretend to be. In some ways, they are like a bad Amarr priest. On the outside, the priest is white and gold and pure. After services, the priest beats his slaves for not cleaning his vestments properly. He lets them starve while they toil in his fields. He rapes them then enslaves the product of his inhumanity. Such people in Amarr are destroyed when they are discovered. And rightfully so!

Looking at past and recent events concerning Caldari Prime (a lovely place, but how do you people breathe there?) and Intaki (a true paradise!), I see two slaves, battered by an abusive master.

Consider that you Federation loyalists. You make excuse after excuse, but you do not see the problem! You have two worlds that are expressing very real sadness and anger at the systemic abuse you've heaped on them yet you fail to even acknowledge that there is a problem!

Such a waste.

God will judge you for your degenerate, abusive ways.

The Caldari will arrange the introduction.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2015-03-28 16:34:07 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Such people in Amarr are destroyed when they are discovered. And rightfully so!


If these people were destroyed you would see a tremendous decline in the amount of holders.

Quote:
Looking at past and recent events concerning Caldari Prime (a lovely place, but how do you people breathe there?) and Intaki (a true paradise!), I see two slaves, battered by an abusive master.


You might have a point if one of these slaves ran away, and the other became the master's master.

Quote:
Consider that you Federation loyalists. You make excuse after excuse, but you do not see the problem! You have two worlds that are expressing very real sadness and anger at the systemic abuse you've heaped on them yet you fail to even acknowledge that there is a problem!


Perhaps we did treat the Caldari unjustly. Perhaps they have every reason to hate us. However, the fact that billions of Intaki are happily living all across the Federation in a myriad of professions suggest that we have learned from our mistakes.

Quote:

Such a waste.

God will judge you for your degenerate, abusive ways.

The Caldari will arrange the introduction.


I've been waiting for your god to judge me my entire life. Still waiting. As for the Caldari, they seem to be really bad at breaking the ice.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!