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[New structures] Observatory Arrays and Gates

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2015-03-23 19:31:43 UTC
afkalt wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Less safe, not more was what I said.

And as I said, was promptly jumped on. Who did the jumping and as to their reasons is nothing I can influence however so I'll kindly ask for the removal of the conspiracy/bias/"agenda" tinfoil hattery you all have got going in here

it is not a good idea to use the number of how many people pointed out the obvious flaws in your reasoning as support for that reasoning


Except they've not. It's just been a giant circle jerk of how to make their space safer. Of course expecting anything else is like turkeys voting for Christmas...

Nah, that's just the way you see it. You continue to refuse to believe that our vignettes pivot around the fulcrum of traditional local, perfect and free, going away. This is a marked reduction in safety and requires significant effort and cost to restore (at least, the way we'd like to see it.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Awulf
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2015-03-23 19:44:43 UTC
Quote:
Yeah. I'm sure all wspace entities would consider their gameplay enhanced if, say, SSC, HK and LH permanently connected their home systems...

Pretty sure such an idea would only ever let a system connect to another single system like jump bridges currently work.
Alexis Nightwish
#83 - 2015-03-23 19:47:57 UTC
Feedback:
Anything the Observatory Arrays disrupt in game must also disrupt at the API level or they will be useless.

I'm not wholly opposed to a form of cloak detection, but I think an active player in a cloaky ship should still be able to perform his role of intelligence gathering without being totally screwed by this. This should be very effective against someone who AFKs or isn't paying attention, but not very effective against an active, observant player.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Gates focus on movement, like warp speeds, agility and mass in the system they're deployed, affect jump capabilities, alter ship movement inside a solar system, allow vessels to travel to other solar system and modify wormhole behaviors.


I really don't like the whole concept of gates, and here's why:

They seem like they will basically undo all the good work that Phoebe did to limit power projection, allowing instantaneous travel of massive (numbers and/or ship size) fleets across great distances.

The proposed effects look very powerful, and should really be something given to a new type of W-space systems. Add a Neutron Star effect or something for this. Not only that, but the ability to turn them on, off, or adjust how powerful they are with simple reconfiguration sounds pretty damn broken to me.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#84 - 2015-03-23 19:55:30 UTC
I would suggest some warm up time before a deployed OA takes effect to stop a group from dropping the required number to hide kills so that they don't scare travelers to avoid their camp.
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2015-03-23 19:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayod Physulem
Observation Arrays:
Some people say 0.0 is too safe - some people say it should be easier to defend. So I would say it has at least some balance now since both partys complain about it.
So changes should keep that balance - maybe make it sometimes better sometimes worse for the attacker/defender.

To clear the table first I will start from the point of a removed local. CCP wants those structures to be fitted so what about that:

(I think I better show what I mean rather than trying to explain it - See it as an example no numbers are fixed)

An observation Array has two stats:
- Scan range (Start with 5AU for example)
- Scan Resolution (Start with being able to lock on to super-capitals)
Additonal:
- Cloak detecting module OR Ship identifying system (not possible to fit both)

Fitting examples
(1) with Cloak detecting module:
You only know the signature size of the ships out there - so be careful where you warp to!

- LongRange (local): If you fit it for range you would be able to scan the entire system. But basically have no resolution. Add a cloak detecting module and you would have that thing, that is called 'local'. So you would only know how many there are but not where they are. (besides Supers since they are that big)
- ShortRange: You fit a lot of Scan resoultion modules and a cloak detecting module. You would be able to warp to everything within the starting 5 AU Range. Even cloaked ships!
- Hybrid: You fit scan res and scan range with a cloak detector. You won't be able to cover the entire system but you can cover more than the tiny starting range, you can get warp-ins on bigger ships but not on small ships.

(2) With a Ship identifying system
You can't see cloaked ships but can identify uncloaked ships and their pilots. (Act as d-scan)

-LongRange gives information about every ship and pilot in the system - you just don't know where
-ShortRange You know what you are warping into...
- ...

So basically: Scan resolution gives warp ins. And Scan range gives - well - range.
If you are really a carebare you could spam those arrays with minimum distance but maximum scan res in your system - giving you a warp-in on everything.

As a cloaky scout you want to avoid the arrays. Keep your distance and try to fly around them.
I don't know if the scan range should be displayed in the map for enemys or if they should just get a message that they are detected if they enter the range.

But since people can spam these OAs I would propose some countermessures. Like a module you can fit that makes you invisible for ONE Observation Array. You would have to choose then, which you want to deactivate. Then you should be able to hack these Arrays with the hacking minigame (results in not showing you permanent without your deactivation module)

So a strategy for a intruder would be. First deactivate the long range OA try to hack it and then deactivate the others.
So as a defender you would need to make the areas your OAs cover overlap so that you recognize someone at an OA.

I think this would be balanced, as you can still be undetected if you fly carefully through the hostile system. But you are always in danger of tripping into an alarm. If you are good you stay undetected. If you mess up you will get discovered. Seems fair.
A good layout of OAs would also require skill - so both partys can influence the outcome.

EDIT: I don't think that OAs should disrupt any intel. If you do not have local as an intruder but the defender has you already have a huge disadvantage. If you don't have d-scan either you are basically blind. You can't see anything.
And thinking of smaller gangs that need to be able to avoid larger threats - this would be basically a death sentence.
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#86 - 2015-03-23 20:17:41 UTC
Gates:

I like the idea of all gates being player owned and all gates being destructible. This would make the connections really dynamic. But there is a problem. If there are chokepoint everywhere you can't roam anymore. Because you are stuck everywhere. Only really large fleets would be able to break through those blockades. This would destroy anything smaller than a invasion force.

So to balance this:
- Gates are ALWAYS public.
-
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Sharing an idea I heard on the Fanfest pub crawl Bear

A one way directional jump bridge module.

1. You fuel it up and get everyone within range
2. Pick a rough destination on the map, no cyno required
3. Click the button and launch the fleet into the unknown
4. Based on the distance travelling the fleet does not necessarily land in the system they were aiming for
5. The fleet itself may also be scattered out over a system or even constellation
6. Everyone gets some amount of jump fatigue of course
7. You have to slow boat / pod express back

Could be an interesting day tripping mechanic.
this
needs to be reasonable cheap that you can afford that and use it regularly and do not need a titan for it or something.

Together with wormholes this would make travel somewhat possible again - but I am still not 100% sure if this would work out or if it would result in dead systems. And only the large alliances being able to move.

As for systems effects (warpspeed,...) - as long as they affect both... dunno.
Anonymous Forumposter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2015-03-23 20:19:31 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Because of course, a roaming gang hunting 'bears TOTALLY bring enough power to the field to start blapping structures Roll


Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to the changes to "Structure blaping" have they...
Black Canary Jnr
Higher Than Everest
#88 - 2015-03-23 20:48:12 UTC
Are there going to be Index limits so people can't just spam OAs? Ie. Military level 3?

Being able to put one up for free in every system would be incredibly overpowered. Structure spam shouldn't be the thing to replace eHP grinds.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#89 - 2015-03-23 21:13:52 UTC
-Will these new gates be able to link w-space systems together?

-Will these new gates be able to link w-space and k-space systems together?

-What will be the range(s) for the gate to be able to reach out to?

-Will these gates work in lowsec, i.e. in factional warfare space?

-What kind of ownership restrictions will they have?
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#90 - 2015-03-23 21:19:37 UTC
I think people like afkalt are looking at this from the wrong point of view.

Null needs to be safe to attract the people that make the space worth living (or worth roaming to), at least to some degree. If miners and industrialists don't want to come to null because it's not safe enough for them, it's going to remain as desolate as it is. That's bad.

On the other hand, I've had the problem on multiple occasions that random gank fleets, 5 ppl or less are just uncatchable by 50 ppl +, just by bouncing safe spots and waiting out the safe log off timer.

It's also very, very wrong that the owning side can't force a fight eventually.

I'm ok with gankers blitzing a constellation and killing one or two people, but them being able to bounce for hours on end if they want to is plain OP. Same as cloaky campers.

The Observation Arrays are a part of the solution to that.

The Decloaking should be manual and with a timer, it could even provide a proximity warning like the ESS.

The Observation Arrays COULD also provide warp end point bookmarks or anomaly beacons to the owning party for where said raiding party ends warps after bouncing. After a certain "lock" time if you will.

So like a raider has been in a system for 30 minutes, received 3 warnings that the lock on him is getting more accurate, after that when he warps the OA calculates the end point and creates an anomaly. Interceptors can warp to that and try to catch him and fight.
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#91 - 2015-03-23 21:32:48 UTC
SpaceSaft wrote:
I think people like afkalt are looking at this from the wrong point of view.

Null needs to be safe to attract the people that make the space worth living (or worth roaming to), at least to some degree. If miners and industrialists don't want to come to null because it's not safe enough for them, it's going to remain as desolate as it is. That's bad.

On the other hand, I've had the problem on multiple occasions that random gank fleets, 5 ppl or less are just uncatchable by 50 ppl +, just by bouncing safe spots and waiting out the safe log off timer.

It's also very, very wrong that the owning side can't force a fight eventually.

I'm ok with gankers blitzing a constellation and killing one or two people, but them being able to bounce for hours on end if they want to is plain OP. Same as cloaky campers.

The Observation Arrays are a part of the solution to that.

The Decloaking should be manual and with a timer, it could even provide a proximity warning like the ESS.

The Observation Arrays COULD also provide warp end point bookmarks or anomaly beacons to the owning party for where said raiding party ends warps after bouncing. After a certain "lock" time if you will.

So like a raider has been in a system for 30 minutes, received 3 warnings that the lock on him is getting more accurate, after that when he warps the OA calculates the end point and creates an anomaly. Interceptors can warp to that and try to catch him and fight.


5 people should be able to use guerrilla warfare tactics in a system with 50 enemy players. If 50 players can't figure out how to defend, escort, gate camp and just bait the five hostiles in their system that it on them.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2015-03-23 21:56:01 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Sharing an idea I heard on the Fanfest pub crawl Bear

no cyno required, does not necessarily land in the system they were aiming for

I think this is a concept that could have a much broader application.. Blink

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-03-23 21:56:20 UTC
Would be very difficult to balance ... also is the plan to change the current balance towards defenders or towards attackers or do you want to keep both in check and increase complexity?

I'm concerned about your appeasement towards the nullbears whining about "AFK cloakers" Ugh

I'm my own NPC alt.

handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#94 - 2015-03-23 21:57:48 UTC
I like the idea for the networked OAs (like one per planet and gate for optimal coverage, creating fields like in Ingress), but I don't think it's a good idea to make them output random map filter data. Just have the owners switch the data on or off.

I don't think many of the Gate ideas are that great though:

Being able to affect warp speed in a solar system (positively or negatively).

I don't think this adds much gameplay and ships will have to be balanced around these gates, making balancing the game even harder.

affect jump capabilities for capitals

Alter How? the Jump Range of capitals, or if capitals can take said gates?

alter ship movement inside a solar system

The owner should be able to set it so everyone warps sideways, even in frigates.

allow vessels to travel to other solar systems

I think the end goal should be that players can kill NPC gates and set up their own networks using different sizes of gates. It has to comply to certain rules. (you can't be disconnected from known space for example). These player built gates can be traversed by everyone without the need of payment, but they can be fitted with gateguns and other mods (like having a small gate cover a greater distance than it is supposed to cover with some mods and giving Jump fatigue because of that, while a proper size gate wouldn't give you any fatigue).

and modify wormhole spawning behavior.

I think this would fit better on another structure, unless you can build gates around wormholes or have them spawn inside of said gates. Because implemented as some kind of WH attractor that spawns WH's randomly in system, it should be on the structure which changes the system itself.


The Shotgun into another area of space idea is somewhat nice, as long as it is coupled to the same range of a JB or something. Else it would make moving around large distances really simple. If it's implemented like it's stated there it wayy to easily exploited for simple travelling opportunities. (Travelling from deep nullsec to empire, just blasting yourself near Jita or Amarr. Logging off for the night after your done with your business so you can shoot yourself back again the next day)

Baddest poster ever

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2015-03-23 22:07:53 UTC
I love the idea of making "fast lanes" that have accelerated warp speed between them as a way to move people (and industrial goods) more quickly between systems.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#96 - 2015-03-23 22:11:50 UTC
idea for the observatory array:
- counter information agents: will notify you if someone uses a locator agent to find you

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2015-03-23 22:23:20 UTC
Querns wrote:
I love the idea of making "fast lanes" that have accelerated warp speed between them as a way to move people (and industrial goods) more quickly between systems.


Remind anyone of Freelancer?
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-03-23 22:28:28 UTC
I see this thread as a brainstorming about what these structures could provide, rather than discussing exact mechanics. Yet, I won't put forward any new proposals – I don't have any – but would like to spell out a feasibility test that, I believe, any new proposal should pass.

So I believe that under new mechanics a manned(*) covops ship should be able to perform at the level it is able to perform now.
For example, it should be possible to use the covops cloak to reliably warp on the grid and then take position without giving advance warning to the target(**). Another example: a manned covops ship should be able to stay in an hostile space for hours on end waiting for an opportunity. Or: it shouldn't be possible to reliably outlast red in a system by just docking. This last one implies that new mechanics should be accompanied by changes to local chat, so that denying intel from local doesn't require afk cloaking/camping.

If this test isn't met by the new structures, then covops game will be substantially diminished. And I don't believe that revamp of structures should mean disruption to some of the professions in the game.

(*) as opposed to afk; i.e. manned = there's someone behind the keyboard paying attention,
(**) of course this doesn't cover cases like being noticed while dropping gate cloak, while having probes in space, etc.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-03-23 22:42:11 UTC
Now I would like to comment a bit from the j-space perspective.

J-space is currently one of the better part of Eve. You won't see a lot of complaining from the residents about the current state of affairs. So please consider carefully whether any of this structures fit wormholes, and if you believe some do, please, consult wh groups extensively before committing on a design. The reason I write this is that there is a significant potential for disruption. For example, a lot of unknown in the “unknown” space come from randomness in connections. If suddenly there are gates between j-systems, we are living in a vastly different space. One way more similar to k-space, for example by facilitating massive multi-hole alliances. I'm not certain you would find support for that from wh residents. Or d-scan disruption – indeed somewhat radical idea if it's anything more than current mobile scan inhibitor. Or changes to cloaks – cloaks see massive use in j-space.
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#100 - 2015-03-23 23:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzar Sinak
Some interesting ideas here. I would like to add on to a few already posted.

First, ship modules to help counter an OA. We already have one, ECCM.

Second, I think the OA should be hackable. A failed hack notifies the owners of the attempt. A successful hack allows the hacker to do something to the OA and the owner NOT notified; steal the modules? Put their own in? Cause a self destruct. Owners may want to check in on their OA once and awhile.

Finally, Cov Ops. Cov Ops with a Cov Op cloak (why you would not have one installed I am not sure) should be able to exist in system undetectable for the longest period of time. These would be the tool for preparing a system for BLOPs attack for example. Please note, the Cov Ops cloak and ship skill and can also be linked to OA detection chance with lvl 5 making if very difficult and a supporting fit making it tougher still.

Existing mods and skills to counter an OA forces pilot choice on fitting (to be changed with a mobile depot if required), hacking an OA to do nefarious things and Cov Ops to be an instrument of long term manned observation if fitted correctly. The OA owners may want to check in of their OA just to make sure all is well.

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