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[New structures] Observatory Arrays and Gates

First post First post First post
Author
Gramps Pljugi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2015-10-13 17:37:17 UTC
Bouncing an idea:

If null/low/high space gate can/would/coul be connected into wormhole, then make the gate in the wormhole only anchorable next to a station/pos that you plan to put there, like 200-300km off of it.

That way people outside would need to cooperate with people on the inside of the wormhole.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#582 - 2015-10-15 20:24:52 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to focus on Observatory Arrays and Gates.


  • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users

  • Gates focus on movement, like warp speeds, agility and mass in the system they're deployed, affect jump capabilities, alter ship movement inside a solar system, allow vessels to travel to other solar system and modify wormhole behaviors.


This all sounds great and I find it hard to knock any of it. it is a home field advantage, but after the three day storm, it seems liek this would move SOV warfare in the appropriate direction.

This also has some major implication again AFK cloakers mentioned in another thread.

The multiple jump gate idea would also add a new mechanic as a single chokepoint, or perhaps not if it does not limit existing gates. How would the disruption come into play on Local in null sec and how would it play out in wormholes?

would affecting D-scan also affect probing? or is the intention the forced probes? Lots of interesting possibilities. I love it!
Zockhandra
Deadspace Unlimited
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#583 - 2015-10-20 15:05:21 UTC
[list]
  • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users


  • The only real issue i have with this part is cloak users. I'm becoming more and more aware that the changes you are instigating are making life for solo blops even more difficult. The jump fatigue reduction on the battleships was nice, but not enough for battleships that need to keep moving or die from extreme stargate camping. It is HARD enough trying to catch people who actually have common sense. Now your going to give them a tool that actively shows up the people hunting them?
    If that really is the case, what was the point of that keynote a while back about nullsec ratters making too much money and getting security status?

    On top of this, you screwed us hard with an earlier change to wormhole connections to nullsec, to prevent force projection (fair enough) But i dont suppose it occurred to you to limit the maximum jumpable mass of null connections so that subcapital ships can still roam and make null dangerous. As opposed to the iron fortress you seem to want it to become.

    Having a module that briefly charges up then detonates in a 100km radius around the activating ship, causing nearby cloaked ships to decloak would seem to be a much more effective soloution without compromising the people who dont afk camp blockade. We just hunt slowly and safely but we get penalised as if we are afk campers? Not cool.

    The other bonuses however i think are great from a strategic point of view, and could make for some insane mechanical plays..

    Except when you then realise that you can get any of that info from third party (i assume) anyway. In which case, why build these structures when google is so much easier?

    You seem to give alot of tasty stats in the hope of us approving, But as of yet i dont feel like your really selling these structures. Even in the last post, nobody was quite sure why anyone would want to forgo a pos for a structure like this (or those deployable labs) when the cost would be higher and the potential for spam is high.

    Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.

    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #584 - 2015-10-20 21:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
    Zockhandra wrote:
    [list]
  • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users


  • The only real issue i have with this part is cloak users. I'm becoming more and more aware that the changes you are instigating are making life for solo blops even more difficult. The jump fatigue reduction on the battleships was nice, but not enough for battleships that need to keep moving or die from extreme stargate camping. It is HARD enough trying to catch people who actually have common sense. Now your going to give them a tool that actively shows up the people hunting them?
    If that really is the case, what was the point of that keynote a while back about nullsec ratters making too much money and getting security status?

    On top of this, you screwed us hard with an earlier change to wormhole connections to nullsec, to prevent force projection (fair enough) But i dont suppose it occurred to you to limit the maximum jumpable mass of null connections so that subcapital ships can still roam and make null dangerous. As opposed to the iron fortress you seem to want it to become.

    Having a module that briefly charges up then detonates in a 100km radius around the activating ship, causing nearby cloaked ships to decloak would seem to be a much more effective solution without compromising the people who dont afk camp blockade. We just hunt slowly and safely but we get penalised as if we are afk campers? Not cool.

    The other bonuses however i think are great from a strategic point of view, and could make for some insane mechanical plays..

    Except when you then realise that you can get any of that info from third party (i assume) anyway. In which case, why build these structures when google is so much easier?

    You seem to give alot of tasty stats in the hope of us approving, But as of yet i dont feel like your really selling these structures. Even in the last post, nobody was quite sure why anyone would want to forgo a pos for a structure like this (or those deployable labs) when the cost would be higher and the potential for spam is high.


    I agree the nullsec wormhole cut was pretty deep, but your also suggesting a solo hotdropper just has to look at dotlan and look at certain times and can sit and wait uncontested. AT least your actively hunting. Do I agree if your actively playing you should be easily hit up? no. However, those guys that AFk in a system, take off for 3 hours while still logged in that are doing nothing, should they go unpenalized? I disagree with you.
    Most of the posts in here are not for an auto beacon that says "Here is your cloaker!". That also takes out most of the fun as well. The probes should require astrometrics V.

    This can also be added with difficulty because if you are active in a system, you are also probably jumping around, which makes probing that more difficult.

    However, do I feel that if you jump in a system , and you walk away for 30 plus minutes and your doing nothing, should someone have an ability to probe you down and kill you while your afk, not noticing the probes on D-Scan so you can come back at your leisure instead of doing a safelog? Yes. I think so.

    And they already said mines are not ever coming back.
    Zockhandra
    Deadspace Unlimited
    PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
    #585 - 2015-10-25 14:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zockhandra
    Poranius Fisc wrote:
    Zockhandra wrote:
    [list]
  • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users


  • The only real issue i have with this part is cloak users. I'm becoming more and more aware that the changes you are instigating are making life for solo blops even more difficult. The jump fatigue reduction on the battleships was nice, but not enough for battleships that need to keep moving or die from extreme stargate camping. It is HARD enough trying to catch people who actually have common sense. Now your going to give them a tool that actively shows up the people hunting them?
    If that really is the case, what was the point of that keynote a while back about nullsec ratters making too much money and getting security status?

    On top of this, you screwed us hard with an earlier change to wormhole connections to nullsec, to prevent force projection (fair enough) But i dont suppose it occurred to you to limit the maximum jumpable mass of null connections so that subcapital ships can still roam and make null dangerous. As opposed to the iron fortress you seem to want it to become.

    Having a module that briefly charges up then detonates in a 100km radius around the activating ship, causing nearby cloaked ships to decloak would seem to be a much more effective solution without compromising the people who dont afk camp blockade. We just hunt slowly and safely but we get penalised as if we are afk campers? Not cool.

    The other bonuses however i think are great from a strategic point of view, and could make for some insane mechanical plays..

    Except when you then realise that you can get any of that info from third party (i assume) anyway. In which case, why build these structures when google is so much easier?

    You seem to give alot of tasty stats in the hope of us approving, But as of yet i dont feel like your really selling these structures. Even in the last post, nobody was quite sure why anyone would want to forgo a pos for a structure like this (or those deployable labs) when the cost would be higher and the potential for spam is high.


    I agree the nullsec wormhole cut was pretty deep, but your also suggesting a solo hotdropper just has to look at dotlan and look at certain times and can sit and wait uncontested. AT least your actively hunting. Do I agree if your actively playing you should be easily hit up? no. However, those guys that AFk in a system, take off for 3 hours while still logged in that are doing nothing, should they go unpenalized? I disagree with you.
    Most of the posts in here are not for an auto beacon that says "Here is your cloaker!". That also takes out most of the fun as well. The probes should require astrometrics V.

    This can also be added with difficulty because if you are active in a system, you are also probably jumping around, which makes probing that more difficult.

    However, do I feel that if you jump in a system , and you walk away for 30 plus minutes and your doing nothing, should someone have an ability to probe you down and kill you while your afk, not noticing the probes on D-Scan so you can come back at your leisure instead of doing a safelog? Yes. I think so.

    And they already said mines are not ever coming back.


    First off, I never said it wwas a mine, i said it could be a module, similar to ECM burst or smartbombs, just specialised in disrupting cloaks. so that you can atleast check that your not being watched.

    Second, i actually do agree with you on your statement regarding the "30m" rule, perhaps cloaks being on grid for a prolongued amount of time slowly start building up some kind of scan signiture. My issue is that regardless of how it is put, it takes long expeditions into nullsec to get results allready. now im not saying that you should get kills round every corner (thats not healthy gameplay or fun)

    However i am saying that from a risk/reward perspective, the sheet has gone from (Travel to null> move around region> check locals>gank>leave) to (go to null on the odd chance you find a wormhole going through a much more dangerous chain, only to get "possibly" instantly detected and destoyed) whilst the 3 month old characters are sat farming some officer spawn merrily without concern. Now if black ops battleships were immune to this scan, i wouldnt have a problem. (because the main threat of afk cloakers is that afk bomber/t3 with cyno) where as if the blops pilot is in system, its likely that people are setting traps up anyway

    So lets try an alternative, lets make scan inhibitors able to Block this scan, until they either expire or are destroyed by defending forces, that was there is atleast some kind of defense against it without it not being counterable

    Shield are red, Armor is too, i slapped my heavy neut, all over you. Fingers crossed, broken shattered and burned, across from the bubble and into your hull.

    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #586 - 2015-10-26 23:14:58 UTC
    Zockhandra wrote:
    Poranius Fisc wrote:
    Zockhandra wrote:
    [list]
  • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users


  • The only real issue i have with this part is cloak users. I'm becoming more and more aware that the changes you are instigating are making life for solo blops even more difficult. The jump fatigue reduction on the battleships was nice, but not enough for battleships that need to keep moving or die from extreme stargate camping. It is HARD enough trying to catch people who actually have common sense. Now your going to give them a tool that actively shows up the people hunting them?
    If that really is the case, what was the point of that keynote a while back about nullsec ratters making too much money and getting security status?

    On top of this, you screwed us hard with an earlier change to wormhole connections to nullsec, to prevent force projection (fair enough) But i dont suppose it occurred to you to limit the maximum jumpable mass of null connections so that subcapital ships can still roam and make null dangerous. As opposed to the iron fortress you seem to want it to become.

    Having a module that briefly charges up then detonates in a 100km radius around the activating ship, causing nearby cloaked ships to decloak would seem to be a much more effective solution without compromising the people who dont afk camp blockade. We just hunt slowly and safely but we get penalised as if we are afk campers? Not cool.

    The other bonuses however i think are great from a strategic point of view, and could make for some insane mechanical plays..

    Except when you then realise that you can get any of that info from third party (i assume) anyway. In which case, why build these structures when google is so much easier?

    You seem to give alot of tasty stats in the hope of us approving, But as of yet i dont feel like your really selling these structures. Even in the last post, nobody was quite sure why anyone would want to forgo a pos for a structure like this (or those deployable labs) when the cost would be higher and the potential for spam is high.


    I agree the nullsec wormhole cut was pretty deep, but your also suggesting a solo hotdropper just has to look at dotlan and look at certain times and can sit and wait uncontested. AT least your actively hunting. Do I agree if your actively playing you should be easily hit up? no. However, those guys that AFk in a system, take off for 3 hours while still logged in that are doing nothing, should they go unpenalized? I disagree with you.
    Most of the posts in here are not for an auto beacon that says "Here is your cloaker!". That also takes out most of the fun as well. The probes should require astrometrics V.

    This can also be added with difficulty because if you are active in a system, you are also probably jumping around, which makes probing that more difficult.

    However, do I feel that if you jump in a system , and you walk away for 30 plus minutes and your doing nothing, should someone have an ability to probe you down and kill you while your afk, not noticing the probes on D-Scan so you can come back at your leisure instead of doing a safelog? Yes. I think so.

    And they already said mines are not ever coming back.


    First off, I never said it wwas a mine, i said it could be a module, similar to ECM burst or smartbombs, just specialised in disrupting cloaks. so that you can atleast check that your not being watched.

    Second, i actually do agree with you on your statement regarding the "30m" rule, perhaps cloaks being on grid for a prolongued amount of time slowly start building up some kind of scan signiture. My issue is that regardless of how it is put, it takes long expeditions into nullsec to get results allready. now im not saying that you should get kills round every corner (thats not healthy gameplay or fun)

    However i am saying that from a risk/reward perspective, the sheet has gone from (Travel to null> move around region> check locals>gank>leave) to (go to null on the odd chance you find a wormhole going through a much more dangerous chain, only to get "possibly" instantly detected and destoyed) whilst the 3 month old characters are sat farming some officer spawn merrily without concern. Now if black ops battleships were immune to this scan, i wouldnt have a problem. (because the main threat of afk cloakers is that afk bomber/t3 with cyno) where as if the blops pilot is in system, its likely that people are setting traps up anyway

    So lets try an alternative, lets make scan inhibitors able to Block this scan, until they either expire or are destroyed by defending forces, that was there is atleast some kind of defense against it without it not being counterable


    Well, a "deep space ping" would be an interesting concept., but it would have to be the grid and all ships, including friendlies. :)
    Poranius Fisc
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #587 - 2015-10-27 16:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello people,

    We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

    This particular thread is going to focus on Observatory Arrays and Gates.


    • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users

    • Gates focus on movement, like warp speeds, agility and mass in the system they're deployed, affect jump capabilities, alter ship movement inside a solar system, allow vessels to travel to other solar system and modify wormhole behaviors.


    With the observatory array's is this just towards hostiles, or is this anyone not in the carp/alliance?

    What about wormhole usage?
    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #588 - 2015-10-28 14:12:19 UTC
    Removing sticky. Still want your feedback but we need room for other thread in this subforum. New pinned thread will be pointing to this one.
    DrysonBennington
    Eagle's Talon's
    #589 - 2015-10-31 09:32:13 UTC
    http://millionthvector.blogspot.com/

    The image above is from Millionth Vectors blog.

    The structure could be used for what I am hoping CCP will do to the game is to open up unexplored space. Well space that hasn't been discovered yet. Similar to W-Space but would require the structure above to built in any known sector of New Eden except for W-Space.

    The station would then lock onto coordinates from the outside of New Eden known territory and allow a constructor ship to jump to the coordinates and then build another such gate to complete the link allowing ships to explore the unknowns outside of New Eden.

    Or the structure could be used as personally created gate much larger though.

    The ships would enter in through the docking extension and then be held in a hangar waiting bay until it was their time to be transported to the connecting structure. Larger facilities would have more Jump Arrays and could process ships at a much faster rate but would expensive to support an maintain.
    Chance Ravinne
    WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
    WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
    #590 - 2015-10-31 15:33:10 UTC
    I'd love to see observatories give owners control over the state of local chat in the system. Normal, delayed, even something like Scrambled would be interesting.

    You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

    Vailen Sere
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #591 - 2015-10-31 19:17:51 UTC
    Chance Ravinne wrote:
    I'd love to see observatories give owners control over the state of local chat in the system. Normal, delayed, even something like Scrambled would be interesting.

    This could be a very interesting concept.. if it's possible.

    But is this something you would have to configure, or would it just block anyone not in the alliance? would alliance still see local?

    More of this goes into previous discussions in relation to the sov holder not having the upper hand and something like this could shift it in a positive way.

    If you still left it open for blues,, you'd have the upper hand over the enemy who instead of getting a local heads up and jumping to the first belt/anom, they now have to take a few seconds and run the D-scan, and they may or may not pick up anyone on the first shot.

    Definitely could make for some fun game play.
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #592 - 2015-11-04 15:25:35 UTC
    Chance Ravinne wrote:
    I'd love to see observatories give owners control over the state of local chat in the system. Normal, delayed, even something like Scrambled would be interesting.


    Supported. Been asking for changes to local chat for years.

    Woudl also be interesting if one could build a fluid router network to enable immediate local mode in w-space.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

    Justin Cody
    War Firm
    #593 - 2015-11-06 03:21:14 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello people,

    We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

    This particular thread is going to focus on Observatory Arrays and Gates.


    • Observatory Arrays focus on intelligence gathering and disruption tools, like tampering with Star Map filters, D-scan disruption, ship intelligence disruption, player tracking capabilities or being able to pinpoint cloak users

    • Gates focus on movement, like warp speeds, agility and mass in the system they're deployed, affect jump capabilities, alter ship movement inside a solar system, allow vessels to travel to other solar system and modify wormhole behaviors.


    Observatory Arrays - regarding pinpointing cloaked ships
    Yes - Improved/Prototype Cloaks
    No - Covert Ops

    If and only If they are using a non-covert ops cloak. Covert Ops cloaks should have an advantage of being undetectable
    Regarding combat recons - they should be highly resistant to being observed or at least get a notification that they are being scanned.
    Iterate on Black Ops Battleships - allow covert ops cloaks or give them a massive sig reduction while cloaked to allow for their role to be maintained.

    Gates - In W-space:

    Modifying Wormhole behavior
    - More total mass (no increase in max mass/jump) z142 goes from 3B kg hole to 4B kg hole
    - Add another static in C5/C6 to Shattered systems
    Propulsion Modifying
    -As K-space-
    Mass Modifying
    -could be fun?-
    Justin Cody
    War Firm
    #594 - 2015-11-12 05:29:25 UTC
    Chance Ravinne wrote:
    I'd love to see observatories give owners control over the state of local chat in the system. Normal, delayed, even something like Scrambled would be interesting.


    only if local is moderated by default.

    pay heavily for instant local intel
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #595 - 2015-11-12 15:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
    One of our guys in TEST yesterday noted that there are now CREST endpoints for new structures and services that have yet to be released. List below is for Observatory Services.

    • Local Communications Array
    • Stellar Mapping Array
    • Capsuleer Tracking Array
    • Scanner Array
    • Listening Post
    • Cloak Pinpoint Array
    • Cynosural Jammer


    Some of these look very promising, especially the Cloak Pinpointing Array and Capsuleer Tracking Array.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

    DrysonBennington
    Eagle's Talon's
    #596 - 2015-11-14 10:10:08 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    You cannot allow any combination which becomes a carebears paradise - i.e. it needs to be LESS safe than today. Not more.


    Gates cannot be used to undo/udermine fatigue changes either


    Sounds to me like you have a thing for attacking those who don't defend theirselves. Must be a whelp.
    Aivlis Eldelbar
    Foxholers
    Outfoxed
    #597 - 2015-11-14 11:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivlis Eldelbar
    DrysonBennington wrote:
    afkalt wrote:
    You cannot allow any combination which becomes a carebears paradise - i.e. it needs to be LESS safe than today. Not more.


    Gates cannot be used to undo/udermine fatigue changes either


    Sounds to me like you have a thing for attacking those who don't defend theirselves. Must be a whelp.


    To quote another forumite: "Thinking the gankers will leave you alone if you don't defend yourself is like assuming the lions in the savannah will ignore you if you're fat, slow and look helpless."

    This is EVE, there are no rules about not attacking carebears, if fact it's a very necessary part of the ecosystem, one that keeps prices for loot and PLEX in check by curtailing overproduction.
    Xe'Cara'eos
    A Big Enough Lever
    #598 - 2015-11-28 15:45:42 UTC
    I'm presuming that there will be a cost to keep the obs arrays running?
    perhaps that cost could/should scale exponentially with the amount of safety it gives - so an instant local costs 10,000 times more than a delayed local, which costs 100 times more than no local
    local including people who have you red costs 100x more than local including people who have you white/blue which costs 10x more than local who just includes those who have you blue

    For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

    Teckos Pech
    Hogyoku
    Goonswarm Federation
    #599 - 2016-01-09 23:10:28 UTC
    Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
    I'm presuming that there will be a cost to keep the obs arrays running?
    perhaps that cost could/should scale exponentially with the amount of safety it gives - so an instant local costs 10,000 times more than a delayed local, which costs 100 times more than no local
    local including people who have you red costs 100x more than local including people who have you white/blue which costs 10x more than local who just includes those who have you blue


    I can get behind increasing costs to some degree but making 10^n seems a bit steep. After all these are going to be structures, quite likely vulnerable to the entosis link. That should mitigate cost increases, IMO.

    "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

    8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

    Gevlin
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #600 - 2016-02-09 02:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
    I would love to see the removal/jamming of local
    2 edge sword for carebears. Intercepters running through won't know if someone is in the zone without serious scanning, and Carebears won't know if someone arrives. Encouraging the use of scouts for mining ops. Force recons become awesome.

    Removing Items on the over view list like asteroid belts, so that they have to scanned down and visited (for the defender) for the attacker the side effect is the hiding of the combat probes. Force recons become awesome
    Produce ships that may be able to counter the effects of these scientific arrays

    The AFK cloaking - SCI FI array causes the cloaker to show up on the ship scanner and proves after 1 minute of cloak. Using the directional scanner and probes will show the location of the cloaker but not exposing them. So you will be flying around using only your scanner to try and find the cloacker. - I would also have this have the need for hiding local so people will never know if the cloaker is in or our of system.

    Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships