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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1461 - 2011-12-21 11:08:04 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Armor plates and shield extenders seems fine to me - The problem is armor repairers and shield boosters doesn't repair/boost enough hitpoints even in small scale pvp as well as. A straight 25-50% boost applied to cycle time and hitpoints pr cycle at the same time changing the bonus on Slave and Crystal implant sets... This means the average active tanks will be much better, but without the implants people no longer have the super insane active shield tanks or monster buffered ships.

About the speed of shield boats the problem is mostly minmatar. Tbh the minmatar and angel cartel ships are too generous with the fitting. Look at the Hurricane easily being able to field biggest autocannons, 2 T2 medium energy neutralizers, mwd, 2 extenders and all the lowslots with gyrostabilizers and tracking enhancers - And still having spare powergrid and especially cpu without any fittting mods or implants. Some minmatar ships need a more balanced aproach to cpu/pg (Hurricane could easily lose 160 powergrid and 65 cpu while the fits stay almost the same as now).

Also it is a shame to have minmatar not only the fastest, but also the most agile, lightest and having plenty capacitor for MWD'ing. As I said before I think a lot of issues would be sorted by reducing the agility and mass on specific gallente blaster ships making them faster accelerating and benefitting well from MWDs, and while minmatar will still be the fastest ships they should have mass added and agility decreased. Also the armor rig penalties should definately have another drawback.

TL;DR =
  • I agree last blaster changes should be made primarily on ammunition and ships
  • Plates and extenders are fine
  • Boost active repairing a lot but nerf slave/crystal implants to prevent monster tanks
  • Review and decrease powergrid/cpu on Hurricane + other minmatar ships
  • Make blaster ships more agile and reduce mass equal to 1 plate
  • Make minmatar ships less agile and increase their mass - but they will still be the fastest
  • Change armor rig penalty

Pinky


this one
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1462 - 2011-12-21 11:54:17 UTC
There's nothing wrong with current values active tanks provide. Boosting these values will just ruin the joy of proper PvP.

There's nothing with admitting the necessity of shield extenders to slow ship down. Active tanks need a clear advantage to become viable and the only logical advantage is mobility. Since very few will justify giving repairers a speed bonus, we just have to introduce speed penalty for passive tank mods.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1463 - 2011-12-21 12:03:13 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
There's nothing wrong with current values active tanks provide. Boosting these values will just ruin the joy of proper PvP.

There's nothing with admitting the necessity of shield extenders to slow ship down. Active tanks need a clear advantage to become viable and the only logical advantage is mobility. Since very few will justify giving repairers a speed bonus, we just have to introduce speed penalty for passive tank mods.

especially for winmatar ,why those ships have comarable ehp to the other races while flying 20-30% faster , it makes no sense
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1464 - 2011-12-21 12:20:08 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
There's nothing wrong with current values active tanks provide. Boosting these values will just ruin the joy of proper PvP.

There's nothing with admitting the necessity of shield extenders to slow ship down. Active tanks need a clear advantage to become viable and the only logical advantage is mobility. Since very few will justify giving repairers a speed bonus, we just have to introduce speed penalty for passive tank mods.


if u take a look at the current fleet tactics its all about applying as mutch dps as possible to 1 target and shield/armor reppers dont give u more EHP to survive a few seconds longer but u need to fit a buffer as big as possible and hope u will survive untill a logistics ship can remote rep u

and if u wont some real pvp go to the ideas forum and ask for some sorts of an arena system where u can fight 1 on 1 with any specific shipclass u wish cuz it wont happen in actuall gameplay
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1465 - 2011-12-21 12:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Real pvp ?

The only "ideal" enviroment for that is the eve alliance tournament. This is a pretty good indicator for ballance in a regulated and limited enviroment.


I bet in the next alliance tournament we will see not many gallente ships.
My prediction is: catalyst, ranis and vindicator might be used but not much more.
A lot of Machs, Sleipnirs and Thrasers will be present.


A lot of games struggled with the balance between health amount vs. damage reduction vs. health repair.
The tools we got in eve are well known to most palyers as EHP vs. Ewar vs. active tank/logis.

First we have to monitor if all 3 are sufficient tactics in most present enviroments.
I won't discuss the results anbd efficiency of such a monitoring but there might be some work to do.


The major issue in all games is there is a max amount of incomming damage /players at which it is impossible to create any balance. Because of that we only can measure battles in certain conditions.

In eve this will be:

- small fleet battles:
passive tank +
active tank -
ewar -

- docking games:
active tank with officer mods +
Ewar +

- Gate games:
passive tank +
active tank -
ewar -

- arena:
active tank +
ewar +
passive tank -

We need new ideas, like
-"combine active tank with damage reduction" or
-"with passive tank no damage reduction possible"

Personal Note on opinion of current state:
- Gallente frigs are awesome. They do not nor have ever had a range issue. They are nice!
- Gallente cruiser sized hulls with rails and blasters are not that nice. Drone boats are still used and cummon in.
- BC/BS SIze: pretty mixed feelings here. I do not feel much difference from before the changes. The situations where vindicators were great before are still the same. No Change in preferences.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1466 - 2011-12-21 13:18:11 UTC
I agree that super fast minmatar ships with lots of dps are really annoying (borderline gamebreaking) and I would like the running capabilities of dickfleets reduced myself. I just think you are blaiming the wrong factor.

Unfortunately I don't find the caldari ships too fast and making shield buffers increase mass you might slow down minmatar a little, but you'll also make caldari go backwards. (Amarr can alse be slow but thats mostly armor rigs armor rigs)

Don't blaim shield tanking for annoying dickfleets - blaim minmatar and angel cartel ships for having too little mass and too much agility. And blaim MWDs for being too fast for their limited drawbacks...

And how can you claim active tanking is fine when Brutix, cyclone, sleipnir, claymore with shield bonuses rarely use active tanking? Myrmidons and Hyperions shield tank as often as they active tank where Im flying too and I'd rather fit an extender on a Hawk rather than even a faction shield booster... The only guys using active tanks to handle much more than a handfull of people for a few minutes are using faction setups with commandships, implants and drugs. And they have to pray on not getting neutralized and blobbed. Make active tanks for everybody and find another role for crystals and slaves.

Pinky

*Dickfleet = super fast fleets dicking around catching stragglers and easily kiting other fleets with suppreme speeds and range with little danger of taking losses because they also get in warp super fast should you get close to them or surprise them on a gate...
Tier 3 BC's are super nice in this role btw. Small signature and faster than hacs easily capable of landing, shooting and warping out almost instantly makes them near impossible to catch once they are in position.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1467 - 2011-12-21 22:31:11 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:

And how can you claim active tanking is fine when Brutix, cyclone, sleipnir, claymore with shield bonuses rarely use active tanking? Myrmidons and Hyperions shield tank as often as they active tank where Im flying too and I'd rather fit an extender on a Hawk rather than even a faction shield booster...

That's why I'm saying buffer tanking is way too good for its cost (there's none actually) and its drawbacks (very insignificant). Fix buffer and active tanking will turn out much more viable.

Matari speed is a whole another story.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1468 - 2011-12-21 23:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
What i really would love to see is some strange design decisions like the "nightmare" a shield tanked laser ship.
This is new, this is fresh and unique.
It shows some out of the box thinking and brings us a new flavor.

whatever you do, be creative :) No matter if you take ship designs, ammo design, weapon design whatever :) Be creative, no stagnation ;)
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1469 - 2011-12-22 09:55:39 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:

And how can you claim active tanking is fine when Brutix, cyclone, sleipnir, claymore with shield bonuses rarely use active tanking? Myrmidons and Hyperions shield tank as often as they active tank where Im flying too and I'd rather fit an extender on a Hawk rather than even a faction shield booster...

That's why I'm saying buffer tanking is way too good for its cost (there's none actually) and its drawbacks (very insignificant). Fix buffer and active tanking will turn out much more viable.

Matari speed is a whole another story.


myrmidon and hyperion is being used for pve and in pve active shield tank is twice as good as active armor tank. and u cant buffer tank in pve cuz u will pop :).
and as for passive shield tank in pve there is only a handfull that u can consider viable.

so u are now flaming about passive shield tanks in pvp, but just consider that there are alot more solo pve players then active pvp players. and if u change the way shield tanking works for alot of people lvl 4 and lvl 5 missions might become imposible to complete.

another option would be to boost active armor tanking

btw this forum is for hybrid guns not for shield/armor tanking :)
M1AU
Zappenduster Inc.
#1470 - 2011-12-22 10:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: M1AU
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:

And how can you claim active tanking is fine when Brutix, cyclone, sleipnir, claymore with shield bonuses rarely use active tanking? Myrmidons and Hyperions shield tank as often as they active tank where Im flying too and I'd rather fit an extender on a Hawk rather than even a faction shield booster...

That's why I'm saying buffer tanking is way too good for its cost (there's none actually) and its drawbacks (very insignificant). Fix buffer and active tanking will turn out much more viable.

Matari speed is a whole another story.


myrmidon and hyperion is being used for pve and in pve active shield tank is twice as good as active armor tank. and u cant buffer tank in pve cuz u will pop :).
and as for passive shield tank in pve there is only a handfull that u can consider viable.

so u are now flaming about passive shield tanks in pvp, but just consider that there are alot more solo pve players then active pvp players. and if u change the way shield tanking works for alot of people lvl 4 and lvl 5 missions might become imposible to complete.

another option would be to boost active armor tanking

btw this forum is for hybrid guns not for shield/armor tanking :)


Well I'm doing quite a few lvl 4's in empire space but I rather see NPCs getting balanced around different weapon systems and tanks, so that not a single weapon system or tank is preferable against pretty much all of them.
If it makes sense to change the way how active armor or shield tanks work in a PVP environment, do it.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1471 - 2011-12-22 10:59:41 UTC
Whatever you do plz dont touch the balance between shield and armor... Shield boosting does have some advantages that are very usefull for PvE, but shield and armor are very, very accurately balanced except for the slave/crystal sets.

Armor tanks generate the most HP pr. cap used in return for not getting armor until the end of the cycle. Armor also have a higher base resistance.
Shield boosters can fit x-large shield boosters with a huge instant burst tank (tanking a lot of dps for a short duration) but will be burning cap in huge amounts, and shield resistance is lower compared to armor.

The real reasons why shield tanks are so much better than armor tanks for PvE these days are the Capacitor Control Circuit rigs each giving a huge regeneration of cap without any penalties making permanent shield boosting much, much easier than was originally intended. CCP really should look at the energy rigs where ccc rigs and acr rigs in my opinion should only give out half their current bonus and get a penalty like reduced sensor strength, signature or similar.

The way PvE are designed with MANY npc's doing LITTLE dps on their own makes burst tanking nice because you can then tank what you need until you have killed enough npc's to decrease their dps. In my npc ships should have more hitpoints, more dps and bigger bounties in return for less numbers - It'll be a lot of work but making PvE combat closer to PvP is a good thing in my world and if the CCC rigs gets sorted to a non-game breaking level armor tanking should definately be in it's right place.

And about the buffer tanks I don't think they're overpowered considered the amount of dps in space these days - The problem as I was trying to explain you is active tanks just not keeping up. Not only compared to extenders, but the experience I have is even burst tanking pvp shield ships like cyclone or Hawk will MELT in the face of even light resistance unless you are a pilot with maxed skills, faction modules, drugs, commandship bonus and picking your targets very carefully... Thats why I'd rather extender fit a hawk and a cyclone. Don't nerf buffertanks - boost active tanks and balance NPC's accordingly.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1472 - 2011-12-22 11:43:10 UTC
You guys wrote much !!! But what about CCP ? ANY info from their side ? Or they just ignores you ???
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1473 - 2011-12-22 12:01:13 UTC
They're taking a holiday vacation with their families while pondering about their next move...
Tallest promised a dev blog on further hybrid changes estimated to arrive in january.

Pinky
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#1474 - 2011-12-22 12:04:18 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
They're taking a holiday vacation with their families while pondering about their next move...
Tallest promised a dev blog on further hybrid changes estimated to arrive in january.

Pinky

good

DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1475 - 2011-12-22 15:01:16 UTC
A lot of crap posted by both sides...

Proper pvp?

Make tier 3 BC's slower and less agile?

What the **** is this ****.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rebirth Mining Director
#1476 - 2011-12-22 15:23:49 UTC
Holy crap.

Tallest, please stop listening to the EFT warriors in this thread. I don't think many of them actually play the game.

Hybrids are very good now. Very much balanced with lasers and projectiles. The only imbalance I see in the 3 main turrets right now is the ability for projectiles to use any damage type. Restrict them to kinetic / explosive, and everything is peachy.

In your next wave of balancing, please address ship bonuses that have become obsolete. You know the ones I'm talking about: armor rep bonuses on gallente hulls and laser capacitor bonuses on amarr hulls. Change them to a different bonus. Maybe change the armor rep bonus to a resist bonus or something. Give all Amarr laser boats a 20-25% cap reduction on lasers and replace the cap bonuses with something useful like damage, rate of fire, optimal, tracking or armor resist. Then you won't see people flying around in laser boats with autocannons fitted.

That is all. Go on everyone, hate on this post if you want because I didn't call for a 40% damage increase and 200% range increase for hybrids. Hate all you want. I'm not wrong.

Director of The God Squad's mining division. Now recruiting Orca pilots!
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1477 - 2011-12-22 16:30:06 UTC
Rebirth Mining Director wrote:
Holy crap.

Tallest, please stop listening to the EFT warriors in this thread. I don't think many of them actually play the game.

Hybrids are very good now. Very much balanced with lasers and projectiles. The only imbalance I see in the 3 main turrets right now is the ability for projectiles to use any damage type. Restrict them to kinetic / explosive, and everything is peachy.

In your next wave of balancing, please address ship bonuses that have become obsolete. You know the ones I'm talking about: armor rep bonuses on gallente hulls and laser capacitor bonuses on amarr hulls. Change them to a different bonus. Maybe change the armor rep bonus to a resist bonus or something. Give all Amarr laser boats a 20-25% cap reduction on lasers and replace the cap bonuses with something useful like damage, rate of fire, optimal, tracking or armor resist. Then you won't see people flying around in laser boats with autocannons fitted.

That is all. Go on everyone, hate on this post if you want because I didn't call for a 40% damage increase and 200% range increase for hybrids. Hate all you want. I'm not wrong.



alt troll post
Rebirth Mining Director
#1478 - 2011-12-22 16:53:19 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
alt troll post

Alt? Yes. I don't need you morons sending hate mail to my main.

Troll? Hardly. I meant every word of what I said. Preceding my post is 70+ pages of game breaking suggestions from people who think their hybrid boat should win any engagement against any possible opponent 10 out of 10 times. It's time for people to wake up. Hybrids are very good now. In some specific situations they are weak, in others they are ******* outstanding. That's the mark of a balanced weapon system. If you're too stupid to figure out how to use them to their advantages, that's your problem, not the weapon system's.

Director of The God Squad's mining division. Now recruiting Orca pilots!
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1479 - 2011-12-22 16:58:24 UTC
i maintain my troll post position. your words are carefully chosen to illicit emotional posts from folks who have been discussing things in this thread. go back under your bridge, troll
Rebirth Mining Director
#1480 - 2011-12-22 17:04:50 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
i maintain my troll post position. your words are carefully chosen to illicit emotional posts from folks who have been discussing things in this thread. go back under your bridge, troll

If I was troll posting I would say something like:

You sound emotional. My words were chosen to illicit responses from fools like you.

But, for once, I'm serious. The only people still asking for hybrid changes are people who will NEVER be satisfied. Let's cross hybrids off the list. It's time to move on to other things that actually could use some improvement. You know, like ship bonuses.

Also, an addition to what I was saying above about limiting projectiles to kin / explosive: It's time. If a fleet scouts an incoming enemy fleet of abaddons and switches to armor ships with em / hardeners, that's good game play. If a fleet scouts incoming enemies in malestroms and switches to shield ships with kinetic / explosive hardeners only to have the maels load EMP, that's broken. Homogenization is bad. Anything that encourages diverse fleet compositions is good.

Director of The God Squad's mining division. Now recruiting Orca pilots!