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State of T2 Production?
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Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#81 - 2015-01-23 16:21:23 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Almost all the industrial content is now entry level or low end. Most of the old mid range stuff has been removed or simplified to become entry level or low end. The amount of high end content remains laughably small. Many of the interesting sandbox elements have been undermined or removed. It's all very un-eve.
This.

In removing barriers to entry CCP is unwittingly removing accomplishments. Sure, grinding standings for a POS wasn't the most fun, but when you finished it you had accomplished something - and gained an advantage. Likewise, spending the time to train skills that gave you a cost advantage was an accomplishment - and gave you a reason to stay in the game.

Maybe it's worth it to CCP to nerf industry income potential in order to more easily feed the war machines, but I think CCP needs to be careful because they seem to be removing accomplishments/rewards in a lot of areas of the game (high end exploration sites being an exception).



Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-01-23 19:04:11 UTC
Hoohnzy wrote:
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.

It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit.


Absolutely 100% true.

And if you do this, you'll find that a significant amount of t1 items are not profitable to build and those that are profitable either have very low trade volumes or come with an atrociously low isk/hr for an occupied factory slot.

Can you turn 100mil into 200mil building nothing but tech 1? You absolutely can. The "issue" is that you can turn the same 100m into a lot more than 200m by investing it in something else and if you spend the time you used to turn that profit into, say, blitzing lvl 4's, the difference is even larger.



Hell yeah! Please calculate prices with Jita sell orders (doesnt matter you are doing your stuff 30 jumps away with much cheaper minerals market prices and much more expensive ships, modules and other stuff on region market without needing to haul or just few jumps). Please hate manufactoring and quit it. At least there will be room for people which are manufactoring because they want to and not just for grinding isks.

I really like the feeling when a miner fullfil my mineral buy order (the guy which i meet in local often) and then someone buy stuff from my sell order and I see him flying (probably with my stuff fitted or in cargo) to a combat site.

And yea, I can haul cheap minerals to Jita and do .01 click fest or sell to buy orders to have worse profit then manufactoring and having fun!


Still easier to just buy in jita and sell there. Trust me, Iive in c9n right now, and pretty much everything is bought in jita. The only exceptions are capital ships, capital mods and battleships, which are made locally from compressed ore bought in ... Jita
Bobb Bobbington
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#83 - 2015-01-23 22:50:05 UTC
Okay, just an idea, but if they wanted to fix industry, why not change bounty hunting and FW? Just hear me out.

1. CCP changes FW to be more PvP centered- now the main income from FW is PvP instead of sitting in plexes farming LP
2. CCP changes bounty hunting so that it's profitable and is a valid profession used by players

3. The effects of #1 and #2 lead to an increase of PvP in New Eden.

4. Because of more PvP more modules are being destroyed and there is a higher upwards pressure on the price of modules

5. With higher prices industry as a whole becomes more profitable


There are probably better ways to fix it, and maybe there are many ideas like this one, but this one is mine.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#84 - 2015-01-24 00:24:52 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Okay, just an idea, but if they wanted to fix industry, why not change bounty hunting and FW? Just hear me out.

1. CCP changes FW to be more PvP centered- now the main income from FW is PvP instead of sitting in plexes farming LP
2. CCP changes bounty hunting so that it's profitable and is a valid profession used by players

3. The effects of #1 and #2 lead to an increase of PvP in New Eden.

4. Because of more PvP more modules are being destroyed and there is a higher upwards pressure on the price of modules

5. With higher prices industry as a whole becomes more profitable


There are probably better ways to fix it, and maybe there are many ideas like this one, but this one is mine.



been tried got exploited. As a game that has ship insurance and encourages alts there's really no way to make pvp a main income source. Note: I would love it (have an alt in in all 4 FW)
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-01-24 00:47:00 UTC
you can make plenty ISK by killing expensive ships.
Phoenix Pryde
3-I Area 42
#86 - 2015-02-08 14:59:11 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

Almost all the industrial content is now entry level or low end. Most of the old mid range stuff has been removed or simplified to become entry level or low end. The amount of high end content remains laughably small. Many of the interesting sandbox elements have been undermined or removed. It's all very un-eve.


indeed Cry
Nathan Shepert
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-02-17 11:55:20 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
Okay, just an idea, but if they wanted to fix industry, why not change bounty hunting and FW? Just hear me out.

1. CCP changes FW to be more PvP centered- now the main income from FW is PvP instead of sitting in plexes farming LP
2. CCP changes bounty hunting so that it's profitable and is a valid profession used by players

3. The effects of #1 and #2 lead to an increase of PvP in New Eden.

4. Because of more PvP more modules are being destroyed and there is a higher upwards pressure on the price of modules

5. With higher prices industry as a whole becomes more profitable


There are probably better ways to fix it, and maybe there are many ideas like this one, but this one is mine.



Exactly my opinion.

Hell, I stopped T2-Production and started Lvl3-Missioning, because gives more money....

People buy things they don´t need, with money they don´t have, to impress people they don´t like !

Walter Slezak
Darin Raltin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2015-02-17 22:44:20 UTC
Am I doing it wrong by using buy order prices as a build cost?

1) Its the liquid price
2) Selling a few raw materials vs. Several finished goods takes me out of competing on minerals.
3) The game theory if everyone sold minerals is that no one sells minerals - there would be so many orders on the market that the time you were the active sell order would be tiny.
4) The bid/ask spread in real life is a liquidity, which in eve is reflected by logistics and time spent trade warring

The bid/ask spread is usually 5-10% and many manufacturing items return 8% on buy orders. Seems like that is the free market at work.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#89 - 2015-02-18 03:33:08 UTC
Darin Raltin wrote:
Am I doing it wrong by using buy order prices as a build cost?

Yes.

1 ISK buy orders for jump freighters don't mean the build cost is 1 ISK.

Buy order prices are the prices people hope to pay.
Darin Raltin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2015-02-18 15:40:05 UTC
The jump freighter is not a mineral.

Made up numbers - Trit 1.00 / 1.05: Py 4.00 / 4.20

Your item is 1000 trit and 250 py for a price of 2,000 / 2,100

Buy orders for the item are 1,900 (scam) and sell orders are 2,080. You have to ask yourself if the 20 isk in cost is worth competing in a different market channel (widgets instead of trit and pyerite). One order vs. Two, less participants so you are exposed to the market for longer each day.

If I could move 100 widgets in a day, but I could only move 60 widgets worth of minerals due to competition I would come out ahead.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#91 - 2015-02-18 23:29:11 UTC
So now finally you all see greyscale's final troll and his impact on industry was disastrous as predicted! ccp allowed him to screw up a major part of the game..

they've almost guaranteed a CRIUS II patch coming to fix this mess, but we all know the others absolutely hate industry and this hole is dug and will stay deep until someone decides to fix it... which I strongly doubt will be anytime soon

he said it.. he didn't want anyone to be "the best crafter".. so now he allowed everyone to catch up with real time long endure skill training times.. just so that ccp can rip it a new one.

I doubt they fix this guys.. I doubt they even discuss it at fan fest..

I can not wait for their competition to come and take my money!.

and that is all.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#92 - 2015-02-19 09:39:06 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
they've almost guaranteed a CRIUS II patch coming to fix this mess
I haven't seen any sign of CCP acknowledging the issues, let alone preparing patches to correct them.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
I doubt they fix this guys.. I doubt they even discuss it at fan fest.
It will probably come up at industry related round tables and maybe we'll get a question or two asked, but I doubt it'll get much exposure beyond that.

Things getting discussed on the main stage at fanfest isn't really any indication of progress or priority anyway. If you recall CCP Seagull said she wanted to relive the glory of the last really good expansion (Apocrypha - March 2009) by making expansions that hit many areas of the game simultaneously while being linked by an over-arching theme. We haven't seen any sign of that since, not a peep has been heard on the subject and the nature of expansions since that speech was made have been the opposite of that intention. In fact what we've been seeing in each release is a small collection of patches, tweaks and revamps, maybe an actual feature if we're lucky and nothing to link them other than a release name.

So here I am, unfortunately an ex-industrialist because some bright spark decided that one of his last acts before exiting the company was to destroy everything that made EVE industry engaging.

We shouldn't complain though, because at least industry is still in a better state that PvE. Apparently in 2015, clicking red crosses is still the best PvE content CCP is willing to deliver.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#93 - 2015-02-19 17:47:49 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
they've almost guaranteed a CRIUS II patch coming to fix this mess
I haven't seen any sign of CCP acknowledging the issues, let alone preparing patches to correct them.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
I doubt they fix this guys.. I doubt they even discuss it at fan fest.
It will probably come up at industry related round tables and maybe we'll get a question or two asked, but I doubt it'll get much exposure beyond that.

Things getting discussed on the main stage at fanfest isn't really any indication of progress or priority anyway. If you recall CCP Seagull said she wanted to relive the glory of the last really good expansion (Apocrypha - March 2009) by making expansions that hit many areas of the game simultaneously while being linked by an over-arching theme. We haven't seen any sign of that since, not a peep has been heard on the subject and the nature of expansions since that speech was made have been the opposite of that intention. In fact what we've been seeing in each release is a small collection of patches, tweaks and revamps, maybe an actual feature if we're lucky and nothing to link them other than a release name.

So here I am, unfortunately an ex-industrialist because some bright spark decided that one of his last acts before exiting the company was to destroy everything that made EVE industry engaging.

We shouldn't complain though, because at least industry is still in a better state that PvE. Apparently in 2015, clicking red crosses is still the best PvE content CCP is willing to deliver.



rofl.. if they removed teams, its vital now for a crius II patch cause greyscales entire work around the bpo's/bpc's/invention was centered on teams.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2015-02-19 20:07:29 UTC
What exactly did you consider engaging that is no longer there?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#95 - 2015-02-20 04:59:13 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
What exactly did you consider engaging that is no longer there?

POSes, for a start. Prior to Crius I had a large network of industrial POSes that were essential to my operations.

You can say what you like about how bad POSes are and have been, but they are vehicles for content. I had to gain standings to anchor my POSes, I had to clear previous residents off the moons I wished to use, I had to raise money for, acquire, ship, design and assemble those POSes. Once the POSes were up I had to fuel, maintain and defend them. There were many things for me to consider with respect to risk, reward, investment and efficiency.

Now it is difficult to justify having one industrial POS, let alone a large network of them. Standings are not needed. Moons are plentiful because supply was increased and demand dropped massively, so there isn't much call for clearing them or defending them. The current state of POSes means that you don't have to think much about setting them up and the ideal configurations are often close to bare POSes (if indeed you can justify having one at all). POS functionality is now very lacking, so they don't really do much.

Build location also used to be a more interesting decision, because you had to be able to anchor POSes. This also meant we had to spread out around EVE. The current job cost incentive to spread out is weak, rich with perverse incentives and pretty exploitable.

Now I am better off just producing everything in NPC stations near Jita to reduce workload at the cost of a small fee, or I can go bunny hopping around low-sec with a JF to avoid the fees. Neither is as interesting as building a massive destructible factory complex in space, maintaining it and defending it.

POSes were far from perfect before Crius and even further from perfect after Crius. CCP should have waited until they had a suitable replacement for the old POSes before gutting them. Failing that they should have followed through on Crius with a total POS revamp in a timely manner. Well over six months have passed since Crius and a POS revamp was needed for many years prior to that. Developers being scared of code isn't an excuse I'm going to accept on this, or anything else.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#96 - 2015-02-20 05:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
I also ran a POS rental operation prior to Crius, where I rented out slots and space in my POS network to others. I was, for a long time, part of one of the research alliances that rented out POS slots to alliance members and allowed industrialists to join individually or in corporations.

I also rented out locked down BPOs to people.

BPOs locked down in an NPC station, or in a different corp's hangars, cannot be used in a POS anymore. That functionality was removed in Crius.

Crius snuffed out quite a lot of these kinds of player run businesses.

I also remember that at one time I may have scammed a few people with an investment scheme that revolved around locked down Titan BPOs being copied at a POS. You couldn't do that now, either.

Before Crius, the industry game was like an olympic sized swimming pool. It was a bit scary for the non-swimmers and those just learning to swim, but you could see a lot of people having a whale of a time jumping off high boards, freestyling and splashing eachother. Chribba sat there on his high chair telling people not to run.

With Cirus that was replaced with an inflatable paddling pool. Now those getting their first exposure are much less likely to drown, but with all the people wanting to use the pool, and the restrictive and limited nature of it, we are all pretty much limited to just getting our feet wet.

I'm not really satisfied with getting wrinkly feet.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-02-20 06:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
alright, you definitely got a point with your POS business being gone.

however, a lot of the indu changes that are hopefully still coming massively depend on a structure and sov rework. i see a future for player owned stuff in all areas of eve that can replace NPC owned stuff

the indu framework has a lot of room coded in for improvements and future changes

everything refining can easily be adjusted to make player owned stuff better than NPC stuff (and that's gonna create content)
changes to production times along the lines are trivial to make by increasing the rank (and that's gonna make room for more players in industry)
the indu formula has room for ME and TE boni that can only be achieved in player owned environments

all these things can only be implemented with other changes being made first (corp roles, structures and sov)

add some ways to disrupt another industrials gameplay and remove the anonymity of the business and bam. content
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#98 - 2015-02-20 07:26:39 UTC
So you're giving me "Soon (TM)"?

Great, that's the same answer I've been getting for a long time.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-02-20 07:29:39 UTC
But this time, we have a team working on structures and another team working on Corp roles.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#100 - 2015-02-20 07:41:50 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
the indu framework has a lot of room coded in for improvements and future changes

Yes, there certainly is a lot of room for improvement.

That's not the same as actual improvement though.

Gilbaron wrote:
But this time, we have a team working on structures and another team working on Corp roles.

Not long ago we had a team working on industry, so forgive me if that doesn't fill me with confidence.

But you are right, there are simple things that can be done to correct a lot of these problems. One of them, as you said, is to re-balance the industry ranks so they actually work. Are you telling me that this takes more than six months to do, or are you saying that structures and corp roles are in some way a pre-req to that? Given we're talking about changing some numbers in a table or some such, is this another area where developers are scared to go?