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State of T2 Production?

Author
Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-01-05 00:58:47 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/lighting-the-invention-bulb/
"Meta Item removal: Meta Item consumption to affect success chance is messy. It only affects modules, not ships and has a formula that is full of exceptions. Those will not be reimbursed as they can be used independently from Invention.

Introduction of Teams to replace Meta Items: we are going to extend the role of Teams to Invention, just like it works right now for other industry activities."

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=389425&find=unread
"Given this, we believe the right thing for EVE and it’s players is to remove the Teams feature from the game over the next few months"

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=395392&find=unread
So with the removal of Meta Item consumption to affect success chance. And now the removal of of Teams to replace Meta Items.
And the removal of meta altogether. How has T2 production and invention not been made harder?

And did T2 BPOs ever get the big Nerf that was promised?
http://www.evemanufacturing.co.uk/invention-vs-t2-bpos/
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#2 - 2015-01-05 01:33:08 UTC
T2 production is a complete mess, don't try it or run your own figures, it's a guaranteed loss.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-01-05 12:01:52 UTC
I haven't built anything since Crius. I still run my fingers over those spreadsheets occasionally, but the margins I see on most things make it not worth my time to bother. It seems "the minerals I mine are free" is the only way to make a good solid profit building things in Eve these days. If you want to run your operation as a business, you're better off doing it for love, not margin.
Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-01-05 21:10:57 UTC
Can any one please break it down for a low skill lvl guy? It all looks very complicated on paper. But with the exploration indi loots being next to worthless, and the use of meta4 for invention nixed, and the removal of invention teams that were going to replace it. And lastly with the all metas 1-4 (better than T2 meta4s) being removed 10 at a time in each patch. T2 will be the only non faction or higher option.

The query I put forth is 'are T2 BPO owners are the only players in this game who are going win from all this?'

CCP is all about the 'trust us this seems like a major nurf , but we will revisit it/ adjust at a later date' that never happens.

I am just flabbergasted that they are taking fitting options that are as old as the game it's self, and T2 production is such a mess. Maybe that's the plan? We can't have the T2 makers profit off all this too much kind of thing? Any subject matter experts opinions are welcome. How can T2 production be improved? What would you all suggest? This should be that huge boost to player manufacturing that the game has needed for a long time. But to my limited understanding, if even high skilled indie guys can not make a profit, the only winners will be the Owners of T2 BPOs.

Thanks for your time.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-01-05 22:39:33 UTC
T2 production of final products is generally not too profitable because most builders also build their own t2 components and/or have reaction towers and vertically integrate.

If you are inventing, buying t2 components, and building the t2 final item from those components, you are probably not making very much unless you're doing it at a POS.

The main function of t2 production now is a method to offload bulk reaction outputs.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-01-05 22:46:11 UTC
meanwhile, i'm making billions per week with T1 stuff
Paynus Maiassus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2015-01-06 01:17:10 UTC
T2 is not a guaranteed loss. However, if you use a simple model of buying parts at Jita, building stuff, and selling in Jita, there margins won't be any better than T1, and worse in a lot of cases, especially ships. T2 BPOs still exist and got nerfed a bit as invention got a bit of a buff, but they still dominate products where they are available and are responsible for low margins in a number of cases.

Since the margins are equal to or worse than T1 and take more work, why build it? Getting cheap sources of goo and making the construction components and the T1 modules can make the margins considerably good, but only in some cases. So you do a ton more work for a tiny bit of an increase. T2 is still worth making in some cases but the value in it is not margins in most cases but sales volume. There really is no reason to sell it in Jita because the margins will be low. Sales volume in Jita will be high for anything you make. So make T1 for Jita. However, since a lot of T2 modules are used more than T1 you can make T2 to sell in local hubs and it will sell better than T1. Try making Ballistic Control System Is and selling them in Rens. You'll never sell any and those that sell will be dirt cheap. Not worth the time. But Ballistic Control System IIs will sell there, and your margins will be higher than selling at jita.

Yeah T2 is worth making but it needs to be integrated into a trading and market scene. Those that say it's not worth doing have built a camp in the forge and haul to Jita.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#8 - 2015-01-06 08:12:37 UTC
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:
the only winners will be the Owners of T2 BPOs.

No, we got the shaft too.
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#9 - 2015-01-06 08:23:17 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
meanwhile, i'm making billions per week with T1 stuff


I'm making hundreds of millions per day with... well, something Twisted
But yeah, the T2 market is quite a mess, especially drones and modules. Haven't found much worth building since Crius...
Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-01-06 10:25:53 UTC
Some things used to be worth building if only because of the skill requirements, materials and length of time it took to copy the BPO to make the BPC to invent the T2. Covert Ops Cloak for example. But since Crius even that totally bankable profit, if you had the patience, no longer has a margin that makes it worthwhile.

As I say, industry in Eve is now about transforming some stuff you got for free into some other stuff and selling it.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-01-06 11:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
at least it's easily fixable

build and invention times need to be raised across the board, so people have a harder time flooding the market without even trying to
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#12 - 2015-01-06 11:50:44 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
at least it's easily fixable

build and invention times need to be raised across the board, so people have a harder time flooding the market without even trying to

+1
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#13 - 2015-01-06 13:23:33 UTC
It takes less than 3 days to cap out advanced component BPO's they cost 5 mill each, 9 in total per nation.

If you buy 2 plate, one of the rest it's 50 Mill X 4 = 200 mill and you will be M.E. capped in less than 2 weeks. We can pretend it's a big secret but we all know, deep down that everyone and their dog is now or soon will be T2 capable and will make their own on demand. The only required skill is Metallurgy 5 and every industrial had that for the now defunked crap metal processing skill. I have it multiple times, completed my BPO set in under a week.

Short version, T2 production for market purpose is **** up. I can't really say if it's bad or good for EVE that everyone can stockpile T2 everything now but from a build for profit aspect, it's extinction. Given enough time it won't even be about price, the asset volumes of stuff are going to murder demand. You won't be able to give it away.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

EMT Holding
EMT Holding Corporation
#14 - 2015-01-06 14:58:23 UTC
Since the removal of teams, the possible margins have dropped considerably if you want to be in Caldari space with 10+ builders. Moving further afield should allow for margins of 10-15% on T2 ships assuming you're building the components.

The removal of teams was a huge nerf to the possible profits on T2 ships. I can't comment on the effect it may have on modules but those have always been thin on margin from my research.
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#15 - 2015-01-06 15:36:51 UTC
EMT Holding wrote:
Since the removal of teams, the possible margins have dropped considerably if you want to be in Caldari space with 10+ builders. Moving further afield should allow for margins of 10-15% on T2 ships assuming you're building the components.

The removal of teams was a huge nerf to the possible profits on T2 ships. I can't comment on the effect it may have on modules but those have always been thin on margin from my research.


Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#16 - 2015-01-06 16:28:46 UTC
We need an industry themed expansion to fix all the problems caused by the industry themed expansion.
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#17 - 2015-01-07 09:05:46 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
We need an industry themed expansion to fix all the problems caused by the industry themed expansion.


Yes, it looks that way Blink As long as we don't end up in a doom loop, all is well.
I mean, CCP did a good job with the UI, you have to give them credits for that. But there was no need to change the production times the way they did. Hopefully they will take another look at that soon.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#18 - 2015-01-07 11:22:49 UTC
Selaria Unbertable wrote:
I mean, CCP did a good job with the UI, you have to give them credits for that.

I'm not that keen on it myself. To me they just replaced one bad UI with a different bad UI.

But 10+ years of playing EVE has trained me to see past such things. It's the underlying functionality that matters most to me.

Unfortunately they also gutted POSes, botched teams and broke the production output on low "rank" blueprints... so the functionality took a massive kick to the balls too.
Sam Spock
The Arnold Connection
#19 - 2015-01-07 18:01:36 UTC
I had an idea that I posted in the features and ideas section about limiting the number of jobs you could have at a station based on the system cost index. Basically bringing back the "slots" idea but on a personal rather than general level.

The idea is that T2 invention in particular has become so easy at an npc station that there is little need to do it anywhere else and it creates a huge flood of T2 stuff. If you were limited by the activity in the system by more than just cost, which was really not a huge factor on modules anyway, then it might introduce a slowdown effect so the market would have time to absorb the production.

You would not be lock out from doing things. You would always be able to have at least one job in a system (maybe two) even in Jita.

POS's, outposts and other sov owned stations would not be limited. Only npc ones. This would push people back to using POS's for industry.

The old slots system acted as a brake on the industry system due to it being very hard to find any invention slots in high sec. The other was invention times. I don't have any experience on that since I did not do any invention pre-crius. I love that you are not locked out from invention by this anymore but the free-for-all has really messed things up.

Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!

Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#20 - 2015-01-08 08:52:31 UTC
Sam Spock wrote:
I had an idea that I posted in the features and ideas section about limiting the number of jobs you could have at a station based on the system cost index. Basically bringing back the "slots" idea but on a personal rather than general level.

The idea is that T2 invention in particular has become so easy at an npc station that there is little need to do it anywhere else and it creates a huge flood of T2 stuff. If you were limited by the activity in the system by more than just cost, which was really not a huge factor on modules anyway, then it might introduce a slowdown effect so the market would have time to absorb the production.

You would not be lock out from doing things. You would always be able to have at least one job in a system (maybe two) even in Jita.

POS's, outposts and other sov owned stations would not be limited. Only npc ones. This would push people back to using POS's for industry.

The old slots system acted as a brake on the industry system due to it being very hard to find any invention slots in high sec. The other was invention times. I don't have any experience on that since I did not do any invention pre-crius. I love that you are not locked out from invention by this anymore but the free-for-all has really messed things up.


Bad idea, since your the skills determining your total jobs would be useless if you choose the wrong system. And traveling around with BPCs and datacores, despite their volume reduction, is a pita, you have to get back to fetch the invented bpcs and bring them to your production facility... And if you can't use up all your slots there, you have to move again, this time the bpcs and the materials... I doubt many people would do that, not the large scale industrialist, maybe not even the small scale ones. I try keep hauling at a minimum, cause it's the most annoying step along the way.
I'm using a POS, just to be clear, still I think this is not the way to fix this mess. Just increase the production and invention times back to the level they were and the market won't be as flooded as it currently is.
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