These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

State of T2 Production?

Author
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2015-01-14 14:25:41 UTC
Quote:
Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials.


Thank you for proofing my point. You are a trader.

What you do is buy materials at below their sell price through the use of buy orders. You could then choose to sell said minerals at their actual value and make a good profit. Instead you choose to build something with it to add a rather insignificant amount of extra value to said materials, or in many cases even a reduce their value. That's ok, thousands of people do that and thousands of people don't get it which is why the market for t1 is in such a sad state in the first place.

Let me make it clearer for you, because I actually DO get it and I'd love others to understand too.

Let's assume we have an imaginary friend. Our imaginary friend LOVES to mine and he sells all his minerals to us. In fact, he is even so nice, he sells every mineral to us for 1 isk, regardless of what type it is AND he brings them to our facory station too. On a day, he sells both of us *exactly* enough minerals to build a Dominix at ME 10. Given that a Dominix at ME 10 requires 13,833,502 minerals to build, it costs us 13,833,502 isk. Lucky us!

You immediately pull out your max researched Dominix BPO, fork out 5,9 million industry tax to start a job, for a total cost of just over 19,7 million for a Dominix. You rush it to Jita and quickly sell it for 192 million isk for a hefty profit of 172,3 million isk (let's ignore market tax for now). Excellent job! Unfortunately for you, you just destroyed 3 million isk by building the Dominix.

See, I, actually getting it, put my Dominix BPO in a lab to make a copy. I put the copy on contracts for whatever they sell for nowadays (250k?) and I sell the minerals in Jita by placing a sell order. The value of the minerals is 189,25 million, making my net profit 175,5 million.

These numbers are live from Jita.

Building a Dominix, and about 75% of all the other t1 items costs more than the value of the minerals. It's irrelevant what you paid for the materials. Minerals you mine are not free. For the remaining 25% the effective isk/hr you gain (over selling) from building is not worth your clicks, character and blueprint time.

If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.

Holgrak Blacksmith
Prophets of Motav
#62 - 2015-01-14 21:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Holgrak Blacksmith
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
Quote:
Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials.


Thank you for proofing my point. You are a trader.

What you do is buy materials at below their sell price through the use of buy orders. You could then choose to sell said minerals at their actual value and make a good profit. Instead you choose to build something with it to add a rather insignificant amount of extra value to said materials, or in many cases even a reduce their value. That's ok, thousands of people do that and thousands of people don't get it which is why the market for t1 is in such a sad state in the first place.

Let me make it clearer for you, because I actually DO get it and I'd love others to understand too.

Let's assume we have an imaginary friend. Our imaginary friend LOVES to mine and he sells all his minerals to us. In fact, he is even so nice, he sells every mineral to us for 1 isk, regardless of what type it is AND he brings them to our facory station too. On a day, he sells both of us *exactly* enough minerals to build a Dominix at ME 10. Given that a Dominix at ME 10 requires 13,833,502 minerals to build, it costs us 13,833,502 isk. Lucky us!

You immediately pull out your max researched Dominix BPO, fork out 5,9 million industry tax to start a job, for a total cost of just over 19,7 million for a Dominix. You rush it to Jita and quickly sell it for 192 million isk for a hefty profit of 172,3 million isk (let's ignore market tax for now). Excellent job! Unfortunately for you, you just destroyed 3 million isk by building the Dominix.

See, I, actually getting it, put my Dominix BPO in a lab to make a copy. I put the copy on contracts for whatever they sell for nowadays (250k?) and I sell the minerals in Jita by placing a sell order. The value of the minerals is 189,25 million, making my net profit 175,5 million.

These numbers are live from Jita.

Building a Dominix, and about 75% of all the other t1 items costs more than the value of the minerals. It's irrelevant what you paid for the materials. Minerals you mine are not free. For the remaining 25% the effective isk/hr you gain (over selling) from building is not worth your clicks, character and blueprint time.

If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.




For someone who claims to have gotten it, you absolutely don't got it.

I will take the minerals generously provided for 1 ISK each, and I will manufacture t1 ships and mods that are worth significantly more than their mineral value. You go sell the minerals and your domi bpo for 190mil, I'll be selling my manufactured goods for 300mil.

It's nice that you got it though.
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-01-14 22:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Shayla Sh'inlux
You keep dreaming that you can do that.
Paynus Maiassus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#64 - 2015-01-15 05:27:29 UTC
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
You keep dreaming that you can do that.


I think you need to learn to play.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-01-15 06:51:47 UTC
I will also build some t1 goods that sell for 300m, but I will consider 175.5 m of that trade profit, and 124,5m of that manufacturing profit.

I don't think there are enough items with a profit margin that high, but I can consistently get 220-250m out of those 175m in minerals if you want a more realistic picture.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#66 - 2015-01-15 06:53:36 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
You keep dreaming that you can do that.


I think you need to learn to play.

You both need to get on topic or take your pissing contest elsewhere tbh.
Echo Gengod
MaxGen Biotechnology
#67 - 2015-01-16 05:02:02 UTC
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:
"the minerals I mine are free issue." Can someone please explain this catch praise. I am not sure what it implies. TY


Look up "Opportunity Costs" in economics.

Yes, EVE will teach you economics and then some.

Also the largest hint I can give is eventually you need to train market skills. Buyers (and immediate sells) are usually for pirates who think "these items I stole are free".
Paynus Maiassus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2015-01-16 11:01:17 UTC
Echo Gengod wrote:
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:
"the minerals I mine are free issue." Can someone please explain this catch praise. I am not sure what it implies. TY


Look up "Opportunity Costs" in economics.

Yes, EVE will teach you economics and then some.

Also the largest hint I can give is eventually you need to train market skills. Buyers (and immediate sells) are usually for pirates who think "these items I stole are free".


No, once you train market skills you're no longer a manufacturer. You're a trader.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#69 - 2015-01-16 11:24:57 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
No, once you train market skills you're no longer a manufacturer. You're a trader.

No, it's fine as long as the balls don't touch.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#70 - 2015-01-17 19:58:06 UTC
Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.

It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit.
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-01-18 18:24:10 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.

It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit.


Absolutely 100% true.

And if you do this, you'll find that a significant amount of t1 items are not profitable to build and those that are profitable either have very low trade volumes or come with an atrociously low isk/hr for an occupied factory slot.

Can you turn 100mil into 200mil building nothing but tech 1? You absolutely can. The "issue" is that you can turn the same 100m into a lot more than 200m by investing it in something else and if you spend the time you used to turn that profit into, say, blitzing lvl 4's, the difference is even larger.

Hoohnzy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2015-01-21 15:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoohnzy
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.

It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit.


Absolutely 100% true.

And if you do this, you'll find that a significant amount of t1 items are not profitable to build and those that are profitable either have very low trade volumes or come with an atrociously low isk/hr for an occupied factory slot.

Can you turn 100mil into 200mil building nothing but tech 1? You absolutely can. The "issue" is that you can turn the same 100m into a lot more than 200m by investing it in something else and if you spend the time you used to turn that profit into, say, blitzing lvl 4's, the difference is even larger.



Hell yeah! Please calculate prices with Jita sell orders (doesnt matter you are doing your stuff 30 jumps away with much cheaper minerals market prices and much more expensive ships, modules and other stuff on region market without needing to haul or just few jumps). Please hate manufactoring and quit it. At least there will be room for people which are manufactoring because they want to and not just for grinding isks.

I really like the feeling when a miner fullfil my mineral buy order (the guy which i meet in local often) and then someone buy stuff from my sell order and I see him flying (probably with my stuff fitted or in cargo) to a combat site.

And yea, I can haul cheap minerals to Jita and do .01 click fest or sell to buy orders to have worse profit then manufactoring and having fun!
RonPaul Rox
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-01-21 19:44:40 UTC
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
Quote:
Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials.


Thank you for proofing my point. You are a trader.

What you do is buy materials at below their sell price through the use of buy orders. You could then choose to sell said minerals at their actual value and make a good profit. Instead you choose to build something with it to add a rather insignificant amount of extra value to said materials, or in many cases even a reduce their value. That's ok, thousands of people do that and thousands of people don't get it which is why the market for t1 is in such a sad state in the first place.

Let me make it clearer for you, because I actually DO get it and I'd love others to understand too.

Let's assume we have an imaginary friend. Our imaginary friend LOVES to mine and he sells all his minerals to us. In fact, he is even so nice, he sells every mineral to us for 1 isk, regardless of what type it is AND he brings them to our facory station too. On a day, he sells both of us *exactly* enough minerals to build a Dominix at ME 10. Given that a Dominix at ME 10 requires 13,833,502 minerals to build, it costs us 13,833,502 isk. Lucky us!

You immediately pull out your max researched Dominix BPO, fork out 5,9 million industry tax to start a job, for a total cost of just over 19,7 million for a Dominix. You rush it to Jita and quickly sell it for 192 million isk for a hefty profit of 172,3 million isk (let's ignore market tax for now). Excellent job! Unfortunately for you, you just destroyed 3 million isk by building the Dominix.

See, I, actually getting it, put my Dominix BPO in a lab to make a copy. I put the copy on contracts for whatever they sell for nowadays (250k?) and I sell the minerals in Jita by placing a sell order. The value of the minerals is 189,25 million, making my net profit 175,5 million.

These numbers are live from Jita.

Building a Dominix, and about 75% of all the other t1 items costs more than the value of the minerals. It's irrelevant what you paid for the materials. Minerals you mine are not free. For the remaining 25% the effective isk/hr you gain (over selling) from building is not worth your clicks, character and blueprint time.

If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.



using a dominix as an example is a straw man argument.

thousands of domis were produced before their inputs were "rebalanced"

they haven't been profitable since.


give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable

http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#74 - 2015-01-21 20:13:39 UTC
RonPaul Rox wrote:
give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable

Almost anything can be profitable during a demand spike.
Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-01-21 21:01:09 UTC
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.



What does match your definition of industry then? Can you provide an example?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#76 - 2015-01-22 10:59:31 UTC
Hippinse wrote:
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.

What does match your definition of industry then? Can you provide an example?

It's probably more helpful to categorize the profits generated, rather than the activity itself.

Industrial activities generally go hand in hand with trade anyway, so separating the two may not be straightforward or greatly relevant.

Instead of saying that this activity doesn't qualify as industry because it generates no industrial profit (or is an industrial loss), you would do better to look at each stage in the activity and calculate the profit/loss made there.

This enables you to see your activities for what they are. Profits that you previously believed to come from manufacturing will often turn out to come from trade or hauling. It's worth knowing this, because sometimes this knowledge will unlock optimisations and improvements to your process that will increase your profit or reduce your workload.

Still, if you just want to be a casual industrialist, none of this need matter to you.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#77 - 2015-01-22 16:44:59 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
RonPaul Rox wrote:
give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable

Almost anything can be profitable during a demand spike.



Also T1 can be profitable when a decent trade hub is along way away.
Argent Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2015-01-22 17:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Argent Rotineque
Hippinse wrote:
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.



What does match your definition of industry then? Can you provide an example?


I believe they are calling industry only the step in the process where one thing or group of things is converted to another, done entirely at Jita sell prices (ie 26 Noxium into 1 Veldspar Mining Crystal--which takes 16,000 isk worth of inputs and results in a product worth 13,000 isk).

The best way to see their point is to consider each action to be a separate economic decision:

1. Buy order for pyroxers in a mining region (trade income is the difference between buy order and sell order price for pyroxers either at the mining hub or in jita less red frog hauling costs).
2. Refining at POS (refining income is difference between mineral value and ore value--with the opportunity cost of compressing and selling compressed pyroxers)
3. Manufacturing veldspar mining crystal I, for simplicity's sake lets keep this at the same POS (industry income is difference between sell order nocxium price at Jita and Veldspar mining Crystal I price at Jita).
4. Selling VMC I at mining hub (trade income is the difference between sell order price in Jita and Mining hub).

Step 3 is the only one that's industry (since you always have the alternative to buy from sell orders in Jita and sell via sell order in Jita). Steps 1, 2, and 4 generate most of the income in most manufacturing outfits (2 rarely makes much over it's opportunity cost).
Clair Bear
Perkone
Caldari State
#79 - 2015-01-22 21:32:59 UTC
RonPaul Rox wrote:
[quote=Shayla Sh'inlux]


give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable



It's not profitable if you have any assets worth mentioning you'd like to put to work. How many frigates per day would you need to move to make to even hit 1B ISK profit / day? I'll be generous and make that a month. Either way, it'll be many times existing volumes.

That's a 1% monthly ROI if you have 100B to put to work.

I have 90 t2 production pipelines (copying, invention, production -- the works) which took months to skill for but earned me a ton of ISK back in 2009-2010. They're completely idle since I've re-subbed at the tail end of 2014. Yes, I can make a few things with a decent margin, but with either sales volume problems OR a low cost per item limiting the amount if return I can receive. So now my wallet is somewhat huge, but income potential on it is rather slim.

Manufacturing is now 100% trading. In many instances I'm far better off just margin trading the materials.

And absolutely all cost of production should be done with your local trading hub's buy/sell prices. If you're doing anything else you're doing virtual hauling. Instead of manufacturing you could simply courier contract your materials to Jita, and return with finished goods.

Like Bad Bobby I'm moving my production alts to within a jump or two of Jita. Will likely queue up a T1 job per slot for a month, then forget about it.



Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#80 - 2015-01-23 05:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
Clair Bear wrote:
Manufacturing is now 100% trading. In many instances I'm far better off just margin trading the materials.

I think part of the issue is that CCP removed everything else.

I used to get paid for:

  • Product selection
  • Setting up a POS, including gaining the standings and finding/clearing a suitable site
  • Fueling, maintaining and defending the POS
  • Blueprint research
  • Buying inputs
  • Hauling fuel and materials to the POS
  • Making products
  • Hauling products to the market
  • Selling products
  • Raising money on the forums to fund all the above

Now I just buy inputs low and sell them high. Occasionally I make something. Undocking is never required. Everything else is automated, unnecessary or trivial.

I am however making a lot of money, because I'm spending nearly 100% of my time on one efficient activity that makes a lot of scaleable isk. It's not exactly the varied life of the industrialist that I used to enjoy.

Almost all the industrial content is now entry level or low end. Most of the old mid range stuff has been removed or simplified to become entry level or low end. The amount of high end content remains laughably small. Many of the interesting sandbox elements have been undermined or removed. It's all very un-eve.