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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#2261 - 2015-01-12 23:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:

this is quite literally my favorite ship in game. please don't ruin it. lest we forget that roden favors MISSILES
The Roden missiles brain-bug has been stupid since the day it appeared. It's only taken like 5 years to get it squashed - now (as per my ancient 'Gallente Mk II' thread) at least there is some sense restored to the Gallente line:

Duvolle - Blasters
Roden - Railguns
Creodron - Drones



an un-damage-bonused rail lachesis is going to be absolute crap. secondly, weapon types are not split like that. it's hybrids, missiles, and drones. for example you don't have amarr ships that are considered to be pulse or beam laser. you have amarr laser ships, drone ships, and missile ships. the roden missile "brain-bug" needs to be expanded upon. give them the option to fit more missiles. I would love to see a missile ares -- it might actually be worth flying if you could missile fit it.
Then re train to fly Caldari...

Edit: weapons were originally split like that in the earliest days of Eve, all that happened was the 'flavours' were ported to T2 ships, hence the likes of Creodron pushing the drone boundary, or Ishukone pushing railguns.

If you want to dig further into the fluff, 'old school' Gallente doctrine revolved around long range bombardment (the drones came later), with more up to date Gallente doctrine involving blasters. So, no - Roden being a railgun 'flavour' makes perfect sense, glad to see CCP are putting things right....


I'm not really interested in all that. The main problem is that they r killing the solo lach. this is the solo lach fit. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20942352
the highs should be 3 heavy launchers and 2 425's (i refit cause i was chasing a frig gang.) and then 3 med drones 2 light.
with recon 5 and heat the scram reaches 27 km. and it's basically impossible to avoid ur dmg. ecm is basically the only way.

the lach is a shield ship and as such you really can't afford to swap it's shield tank for a web and a cap booster to make sure your dmg is applied. I don't care that it's more lore accurate because it's making it a worse ship. missiles you can't really avoid w/ drones you can't rally avoid w/ a scram you can't really avoid is like the perfect storm of awesomeness. why are we messing with this?

also i can fly caldari. unfortunately they don't have any 27km scrams on their ships.
So, are you saying the entire Roden lineup should revolve around missiles, because of one solo fit that ignores one bonus altogether and includes autocannons?....

Don't have an issue with people tinkering with solo fits, but then, that's not really the point of Recon's is it?... What?


Edit: In any case, you're clearly having more fun with the Garmur, which is more suited to the task...

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#2262 - 2015-01-13 00:08:30 UTC
Apocalypse Solar wrote:

Seriously just drop this stupid gimmicky idea, and give them Covert Ops cloaks instead. It literally equates to the same thing.

If it "literally equates to the same thing" then I'm sure you must agree that Dscan immunity is just fine (much like Covert Ops cloaks are fine as is.) Can we move on now?
PastyWhiteDevil
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2263 - 2015-01-13 01:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: PastyWhiteDevil
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

an un-damage-bonused rail lachesis is going to be absolute crap. secondly, weapon types are not split like that. it's hybrids, missiles, and drones. for example you don't have amarr ships that are considered to be pulse or beam laser. you have amarr laser ships, drone ships, and missile ships. the roden missile "brain-bug" needs to be expanded upon. give them the option to fit more missiles. I would love to see a missile ares -- it might actually be worth flying if you could missile fit it.
Then re train to fly Caldari...

Edit: weapons were originally split like that in the earliest days of Eve, all that happened was the 'flavours' were ported to T2 ships, hence the likes of Creodron pushing the drone boundary, or Ishukone pushing railguns.

If you want to dig further into the fluff, 'old school' Gallente doctrine revolved around long range bombardment (the drones came later), with more up to date Gallente doctrine involving blasters. So, no - Roden being a railgun 'flavour' makes perfect sense, glad to see CCP are putting things right....


I'm not really interested in all that. The main problem is that they r killing the solo lach. this is the solo lach fit. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20942352
the highs should be 3 heavy launchers and 2 425's (i refit cause i was chasing a frig gang.) and then 3 med drones 2 light.
with recon 5 and heat the scram reaches 27 km. and it's basically impossible to avoid ur dmg. ecm is basically the only way.

the lach is a shield ship and as such you really can't afford to swap it's shield tank for a web and a cap booster to make sure your dmg is applied. I don't care that it's more lore accurate because it's making it a worse ship. missiles you can't really avoid w/ drones you can't rally avoid w/ a scram you can't really avoid is like the perfect storm of awesomeness. why are we messing with this?

also i can fly caldari. unfortunately they don't have any 27km scrams on their ships.
So, are you saying the entire Roden lineup should revolve around missiles, because of one solo fit that ignores one bonus altogether and includes autocannons?....

Don't have an issue with people tinkering with solo fits, but then, that's not really the point of Recon's is it?... What?


Edit: In any case, you're clearly having more fun with the Garmur, which is more suited to the task...


im not advocating they make roden revolve around missiles. originally i had said rather than force all guns give the option to fit all missiles as well. but, more than anything im saying dont take something thats great the way it is and make it terrible. the only reason i have 425's instead of rails is because of cap issues (and they are better in the event that im capped out).

that lach can dual a curse and win if the curse stays or u get a lucky scram cycle off.

garmur is not more suited to what u can do w/ my lach. u can jump into like 6 frigs, kill them all, and not worry u might get stuck there if some r kite. u can also do this --http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20033503

that kill way on gate. the talos initially took gate fire and had to warp out and back. so, i basically had to take gate guns for a solid minute to minute 30 and i did fine. i was just over a third shield when it popped. we had no links or logi either. it's a wonderful ship as is and i dont feel like they should be messing with it in this manner. not only is it taking a hit in versatility, it's also taking a hit in dps.

on a side note. if u swap one of ur hardeners for an eccm and the cn bcu for a low slot eccm, u can fight under falcon jams

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20772245
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20772296
didn't get a single jam cycle off on me lol.
PastyWhiteDevil
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2264 - 2015-01-13 01:08:26 UTC
also, d-scan immunity is some bs. you could completely alleviate all the worries of abuse in FW by making them only visible on d-scan from 0.5-1 au away. I don't understand why this kind of compromise is not being implemented. can anyone explain to me why it has not been set up this way? is it too hard to code?
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
#2265 - 2015-01-13 05:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CW Itovuo
PastyWhiteDevil wrote:
also, d-scan immunity is some bs. you could completely alleviate all the worries of abuse in FW by making them only visible on d-scan from 0.5-1 au away. I don't understand why this kind of compromise is not being implemented. can anyone explain to me why it has not been set up this way? is it too hard to code?



How bad do you want to know?


What I'm about to show you is top secret, classified CCP work product:



CCP Balancing Philosophy
lexa21
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2266 - 2015-01-13 11:32:01 UTC
"With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure."

NOOOOOOO! Ive been waiting for years unless Piligrim became something more than less than nothing cynoship! You RIPed this ship with your nosf rebalance. All the stuff you should do was transfering one low into med for and reducing mass for Curse and good range bonus for pilligrim! It was like a good bless for a piligrim when you wrote 40% bonus.

Shame on you ccp. Stop killing the game i loved six years ago please.

Also if you didnt notcie - arazu diruptor 60km (98 bonused), rapier web is up to 70, falcon 60, pilligrim - 24 yeah im certanly amazed! Dint you thought that bonuses for pilligrim and curse was counted for ages of nano, nosf and not rigged ships? Ages of 90% webs and useless scramblers! Now we have Curse that can be stopped by any cruser and piligrim that still close ranged but cant avoid death from the scram range.
Lordus Tran
Doomheim
#2267 - 2015-01-13 13:26:35 UTC
Rise, PLEASE give the recons more cargo space to be more solo viable. At least the force recons are supposed to work in enemy space with an extended range of operations, right? Cloaky, self sufficient scouts with some firepower and foxy e-war, right? They NEED more room for cap boosters to fulfil that role and to be viable solo ships. RECON SHIPS which have to run to their base for cap boosters all the time are just fail and pretty much all of them need cap boosters when solo. Sry for the caps, but that 315m2 rapier just makes me sad Sad
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#2268 - 2015-01-13 13:40:59 UTC
Lordus Tran wrote:
Rise, PLEASE give the recons more cargo space to be more solo viable. At least the force recons are supposed to work in enemy space with an extended range of operations, right? Cloaky, self sufficient scouts with some firepower and foxy e-war, right? They NEED more room for cap boosters to fulfil that role and to be viable solo ships. RECON SHIPS which have to run to their base for cap boosters all the time are just fail and pretty much all of them need cap boosters when solo. Sry for the caps, but that 315m2 rapier just makes me sad Sad


This!

Also you might want to look into the pilgrim again. Since many things will kite and point at 28km + in terms of control it is a sitting duck compared to the other recons atm.
Thodir
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2269 - 2015-01-13 14:00:40 UTC
Lordus Tran wrote:
Rise, PLEASE give the recons more cargo space to be more solo viable. At least the force recons are supposed to work in enemy space with an extended range of operations, right? Cloaky, self sufficient scouts with some firepower and foxy e-war, right? They NEED more room for cap boosters to fulfil that role and to be viable solo ships. RECON SHIPS which have to run to their base for cap boosters all the time are just fail and pretty much all of them need cap boosters when solo. Sry for the caps, but that 315m2 rapier just makes me sad Sad


This is a nice idea, and I like it. I also suggest perhaps putting in a separate, larger cargo specifically for either cap booster OR liquid isotopes for the cynos and what-have-you. I know a few who still use them as cynos.

Also, the Falcon needs higher jam bonuses BECAUSE OF FALCON!
(that last bit wasn't meant to be taken seriously. kind of. sorta. it'd be nice though. falconplz)
Marie Orlenard
13.
#2270 - 2015-01-13 14:58:48 UTC
This puts me at a huge advantage as a curse enthusiast living in wormhole space.

D-scan immunity as a role bonus for me is basically covops cloak without the drawbacks (sacrificing a high slot, target locking and inbetween delays between "invisibility", decloaking by getting close to anything nearer than 2 klicks range)

When I first read about this upcoming change, I thought this should have been a role-specific module utilizable only by combat recon ships.

However, this does not make combat recon pilots absolute rulers of wh space. It just gives pacifist/explorer people in wormhole space a reason to actually make use of those combat scanner probes gathering dust in their cargoholds. Because there was simply none until now.

Vadeim Rizen wrote:
this is so hilariously OP. inb4 recon nerf.

ratters now can't even just keep an eye on d-scan and warp out before someone comes in to tackle.... tbh all they needed was a hitpoint and cap buff.

can't wait to sit in a medium plex with an insta-lock arty huginn and blap unsuspecting frigs.


... and if nothing else, "Warp to within x km".
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2271 - 2015-01-13 16:25:01 UTC
I wont go through all 100 pages of comments, I just wont, so I'm sure this has all been said before but here's my 2 cents:

There are people trying to do combat plexes in lowsec or fight sleepers in Wspace.
D-scan is the only thing that gives them a chance (especially the latter) against being brag material in someones killboard.

Now, they stand no chance.
They can easily be caught and killed even by the most casual aggressor with enough money to buy a Curse.
And what about experienced aggressors with the means to field an invisible fleet of, say, ten Curses? What keeps them from sweeping wh after wh and killing everything thats not in a forcefield?

This change feels unfair, it greatly enhances* ganger playstyle in expense of everyone else's.


*"Enhances" as in "makes terribly easy and mindless" and not as in "giving depth and meaning". I am sure there are players that dont just look for easy kills, finding a challenging catch a more rewarding experience.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#2272 - 2015-01-13 17:35:32 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
I wont go through all 100 pages of comments, I just wont, so I'm sure this has all been said before but here's my 2 cents:

There are people trying to do combat plexes in lowsec or fight sleepers in Wspace.
D-scan is the only thing that gives them a chance (especially the latter) against being brag material in someones killboard.

Now, they stand no chance.
They can easily be caught and killed even by the most casual aggressor with enough money to buy a Curse.
And what about experienced aggressors with the means to field an invisible fleet of, say, ten Curses? What keeps them from sweeping wh after wh and killing everything thats not in a forcefield?

This change feels unfair, it greatly enhances* ganger playstyle in expense of everyone else's.


*"Enhances" as in "makes terribly easy and mindless" and not as in "giving depth and meaning". I am sure there are players that dont just look for easy kills, finding a challenging catch a more rewarding experience.


I didn't read your post, I just won't, so I'm sure it's been all said before but here's my 2 euros:

You don't stay at the warp-in point of any PVE site or ore belt or whatever in this game if you want to live.

When a Suddenly Curse (why Curse, who gives a **** about Curses?), I mean Suddenly Lachesis lands in your room, you are 90km away from the warp in point, lol at him in local and warp out.

Thedaius
Repercussus
#2273 - 2015-01-13 17:40:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


ROOK

Role Bonus:
Cannot be detected by directional scanners

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to kinetic missile damage (was 5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire)
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer activation cost



The in-game description still states 5% ROF. Haven't checked the bonuses; but is this not changing?

Thanks.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#2274 - 2015-01-13 19:18:37 UTC
Just logged in today after patching, and I would like to say that the rook didn't get updated. Can anyone tell me if this is a bug, or a mistake of some kind? I seriously hope that update didn't get pulled at the last minute. What?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2275 - 2015-01-13 19:20:38 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Just logged in today after patching, and I would like to say that the rook didn't get updated. Can anyone tell me if this is a bug, or a mistake of some kind? I seriously hope that update didn't get pulled at the last minute. What?


the change has occured .. you can see the dscan immunity, and if you change the ammo you can see the dps difference, they just didnt change the wording on the missile ROF to a damage bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
lachesis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2276 - 2015-01-13 20:18:01 UTC
stop dissing my improvements Cool

mwahahaha ive been sitting on this alt account since 2003 ..I knew one day it would come in handy for something PiratePiratePiratePiratePirate
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2277 - 2015-01-13 22:32:23 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.

Major changes:

  • We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.
  • With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure.
  • We are going to move one high slot on the Lachesis to a low slot, making armor slightly more viable while still preserving room in the mids for damps as well as long range warp disruption. The damage potential for the Lach is still on par with other combat recons even without the fifth high so we feel this fits better than giving up a mid.
  • The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.
  • Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

    • Have a great Christmas o/



    Ok PG for the rook.. but what is the FIT in your mind for the Huggin? witht hatlimtied PG. And do nto tell me you expect a ship with 40 km webs to use medium AC.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Stitch Kaneland
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #2278 - 2015-01-13 22:44:14 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.

    Major changes:

  • We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.
  • With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure.
  • We are going to move one high slot on the Lachesis to a low slot, making armor slightly more viable while still preserving room in the mids for damps as well as long range warp disruption. The damage potential for the Lach is still on par with other combat recons even without the fifth high so we feel this fits better than giving up a mid.
  • The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.
  • Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

    • Have a great Christmas o/



    Ok PG for the rook.. but what is the FIT in your mind for the Huggin? witht hatlimtied PG. And do nto tell me you expect a ship with 40 km webs to use medium AC.


    CCP really just needs to reduce arty fitting. Every ship needs more grid to fit artillery and be viable. If they reduced fitting, then current huginn PG might work with a single PG mod.

    Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

    Make the Muninn great again!
    Lug Muad'Dib
    Funk'in Hole
    #2279 - 2015-01-13 23:11:43 UTC
    Stitch Kaneland wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Okay, first major update just edited into the OP.

    Major changes:

  • We're going to go with a lighter resist profile than originally described, setting all eight recons at the former combat recon resist profile. While we still like the goal of making them more fleet viable, their tank was one of their only stand-out weaknesses and we felt that removing it could make them oppressive at smaller scales. To compensate somewhat we've trimmed 5 more sig radius of each ship.
  • With the Pilgrim we decided to split the difference between neut range and strength by wrapping both into one bonus. The amounts will be smaller than either of the singular bonuses but this should do a nice job of giving more engagement range flexibility while still allowing for plenty of cap pressure.
  • We are going to move one high slot on the Lachesis to a low slot, making armor slightly more viable while still preserving room in the mids for damps as well as long range warp disruption. The damage potential for the Lach is still on par with other combat recons even without the fifth high so we feel this fits better than giving up a mid.
  • The Rook is getting a little more PG fitting room and trading the 5% HAM/HML rate of fire bonus for a 7.5% kinetic missile damage bonus. This is typical Kaalakiota bonus, gives the same number of effective launchers, and favors RLML over the rate of fire bonus.
  • Finally, I will say again that the directional scan immunity is staying, though we are very aware of concerns (especially concerning FW site abuse) and will watch closely to see how this new capability is used and make any necessary adjustments.

    • Have a great Christmas o/



    Ok PG for the rook.. but what is the FIT in your mind for the Huggin? witht hatlimtied PG. And do nto tell me you expect a ship with 40 km webs to use medium AC.


    CCP really just needs to reduce arty fitting. Every ship needs more grid to fit artillery and be viable. If they reduced fitting, then current huginn PG might work with a single PG mod.


    No, recon ship are primary support ship, not solo "lol dscan" pownmobile.
    Celestia Via
    Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
    Ushra'Khan
    #2280 - 2015-01-14 00:02:48 UTC
    Aiyshimin wrote:


    You don't stay at the warp-in point of any PVE site or ore belt or whatever in this game if you want to live.

    When a Suddenly Curse (why Curse, who gives a **** about Curses?), I mean Suddenly Lachesis lands in your room, you are 90km away from the warp in point, lol at him in local and warp out.



    If by PvE site you mean belt rats that could be good advice. On sleeper sites however you kinda have to do it their way, or am I supposed to crack my whip and herd the sleepers to a location of my convenience like a true cowboy?


    Also, Lachesis is a terrible name for a ship who the hell flies such a terribly named ship? I am ashamed for them.

    "We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."