Science & Industry

A couple of things I can think up:

1) Industry slots were a limited resource. While factories have always been abundant, lab slots have been a rare commodity ever since Eve's inception. Back in the day (2004) labs were like offices that you'd rent and use. That got changed to the reasonably well working queuing system ages ago to the no-queue-but-extra-tax system we have now. It basically means that the playing field is leveled for everyone and that gaining an edge by flying your 1bil+ Capital BPO's to lowsec for lower or no queue times has disappeared. The new system also punishes you for producing a lot of stuff in one place. Which is obnoxious.

2) Inventing was very different. Today, you can just plug in a single-run drone BPC and get a 10-run copy out of an invention job. You can also queue up, say, 100 invention runs. Before Crius, you needed max-run BPCs to get 10-run copies. That meant more time your BPO's spent in labslots copying and less free queue time for inventions. Also, for ships it was even more complicated as the required BPC depended on which decryptor you used. You also couldn't queue jobs: 1 BPC, no matter how many runs, resulted in 1 t2-BPC with an amount of runs depending on how many runs the BPC had and which decryptor you used. Basically, you can now get a ton more t2-runs than before in the same amount of time.

3) As a result of #1 and #2, lab time and research slots were the bottleneck in t2 production. As the skill requirements for t2 invention were quite high, requiring multiple lvl 4's and 5's in high-ranked skills training a research-alt was a hefty skillpoint and thus monotary investment.

4) The skill requirements for t2 production have been signifcantly lowered. Where the removal of Production Efficiency destroyed the t1 market (which was already a niche industry), the reworking of the t2 related skills did that for the t2 market. Skills that were required to build stuff, merely got changed so that they make you build faster (which leads to more flooding). Before Crius, for example, you needed Advanced Frigate Construction lvl 5 to build an AF. Not only did they totally change the requirements to build, they also significantly lowered the impact of good skills on invention jobs. Before Crius, training the rank 5 Science Skills to lvl 5 gave you a not-insignificant edge when inventin, especially when you were using 7 million costing decryptors. Nowadays, the difference is so small that an 8 hour traintime lvl III can basically get the same profit a the lvl V.

5) Build times got significantly lowered, especially for modules and ammo. I'm not sure what the thought behind this was, as one character (yes one character not person) can reasonably supply the ENTIRE DAILY DEMAND in Jita on his own now. For example, I can, on one alt with 9 million skillpoints, invent and build enough Heavy Missile Launchers II to satisfy the Jita market. Alone. It's no surprise HML's sell at a loss.

6) System tax is a major factor in the production cost. System tax cannot be avoided, not be smarted around nor be reduced by skills. System tax punishes you for having a ton of production in one place and punishes you for having a streamlined and well organized factory. The only way to avoid said tax is by relocating your entire operation every ~10 days and for large producers that's just not going to happen. For example, I run my own little production line with 2 alts and moving their operation would mean moving about 12 freighters of goods. Now imagine what big production corps would have to move. System tax is a stupid idea and needs to be reworked asap.

That's just a few reasons.

I could go on and on, but this poster has no clue. Don't listen to a word he says.

One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.

[quote=Shayla Sh'inlux]A couple of things I can think up:

There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. T1 was not a niche industry, as it is not a niche industry now. T1 industry has not been destroyed.

I never had frig, cruiser, or battleship construction at 5 but made marauders, cruisers, and I think frigs. Maybe some of the frigs required frig construction (now advanced small ship construction) 5, but I was never unable to build anything for the longest time that I wanted to build.

One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.

The difference in having all your invention skills at 1 vs. having all of them at 5 is about 12%. Basically about like it was.

An unused system will have about a .1 system index for the cost. Using the system will quickly get it up to about a 2. It's really hard to get a system beyond that and only major industrial hubs get very high. Even there, the job cost is not a margin killer.

I could go on and on, but this poster has no clue. Don't listen to a word he says.

There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. T1 was not a niche industry, as it is not a niche industry now. T1 industry has not been destroyed.

I never had frig, cruiser, or battleship construction at 5 but made marauders, cruisers, and I think frigs. Maybe some of the frigs required frig construction (now advanced small ship construction) 5, but I was never unable to build anything for the longest time that I wanted to build.

One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.

The difference in having all your invention skills at 1 vs. having all of them at 5 is about 12%. Basically about like it was.

Paynus, Bad Bobby and Shayla: Thanks for your insights!

It's nice to hear the perspective from older players on the changes and relate them to my current experience.

As mentioned earlier I previously played EvE in small doses, but only doing PvP or mission running. I looked into industry now when I resubbed to set up a low effort income and got stuck because it was fun.

So far it has taken a significant amount of time learning how everything works in-game, learning out of game tools to help with calculations and most of all learn to actually check the profitability in-game (spotting scams, inflated prices etc.). Most of the time have gone to learn tools enough to trust them give me BPOs to investigate further.

So the time investment, at least for me, to get a hang of everything was rather significant. But now when I’ve got the basic down I can rather easily go through the motions. It takes me about 10-15 minutes to log in, setup new jobs (manufacturing/research), set up/update sell orders and be done. I operate in a trade hub, working from sell order to sell order, nu hauling.

I’ve had no problem turning a profit, but it is low ISK/h. I’ve added an extra zero to my starting capital while still being able to invest in implants (for indy-main and indy-alt), BPOs, Skillbooks etc I would guess I’m averaging about 75k-100k in ISK/h per slot. Investing in more expensive BPOs I hope to be able to push this to a 200 000 ISK/h average.

The things I’m noticing is that the profitability of items changes rather quick. Probably because more players them me are using the same tools. So my strategy is to build a simple BPO portfolio that has a rather low ROI time so I can be agile in the market, manufacturing in24h batches what seems to be the most profitable right now.

Unloading my stock is also starting to be a problem, mainly due to .01 ISKing. The volume is there but the “log in once a day” approach doesn’t work for selling my stock. If I babysit for an hour or three stuff move quickly.

So my view on your comments above is that T1 really has a low barrier of entry, low profit potential and a volatile market. I don’t know if this is the best for the game but it seems rather appropriate compared to other carrers in EvE if industry is supposed to be viable for new players. I would like the ability to specialize a bit more in T1 with skills, but then you would lose the low barrier of entry for new players.

The changes to Invention seems significant, I’m currently looking into T2 production and I’m even unsure I should factor invention/copy time into my ISK/H calculations (the cost, of course, are included) as it doesn’t seem to be a bottle neck at all.

I can see how flooding would be a problem now. Low skill requirements and short build times makes demand easy to satisfy. I guess longer build times would create the need for the industrial collective to differentiate more in what they produce. What was most surprising to me when I started to do indy was how small some of the market segments actually is compared with the ability to produce. When I played for PvP I imagined the silent masses of indy-players working an mass to satisfy the war machine of EvE.

When it comes to the UI, I like it. We will see if I still do when I start doing it on 3+ characters

It actually has been and has been for a long, long while. Likely, the thing you are calling "T1 Industry" is actually called trading. And trading is very profitable. It's not industry, however.

I understand that very few people can actually tell the difference and think they are building at profit while they are actually trading at less profit than they would have had when they skipped the build step. It appears you are one of them.



I specifically mentioned requiring Advanced Frig Construction lvl V for Assault Frigs. Which was the case and the reason I have it at V on two characters. I think dictors also required it, but I never built those.

You also needed Advanced Cruisers lvl V for hictors and various lvl 4's for other ships.



For all items= No. I never said that. I also concur HML II was a bad example as you can only meet about 1/3 of the demand on your own for that item.

But let´s do some math. Let's take a small module. A railgun, a Pulse laser, just any semi-popular frigate gun. Or any lowslot item that fits on a small ship. In a PoS, with good skills, these modules take 19 minutes to build.

Let's round to 3 per hour. A character has 11 building slots. At least, mine have. That means I can, alone, produce almost 800 of them per day one one character. And another 800 on the second.

A 125mm railgun II trades about 500 units a day, some of which is traders buying and relisting.
A 150mm railgun II trades about 1000 a day, some of which is traders buying and relisting.

There are dozens of modules that trade less than 1000 a day in Jita and dozens and dozens more that trade less than 1500 a day. And I'm just one guy with two accounts. Not some mega-multi industrial that have up to 10-20 characters building stuff.



You need to compare 4's to 5's. Not 1's to 5's. The difference between 4 and 5 is signifcantly smaller than before. Also this is before decryptor multipliers.

Besides, since the input of invention jobs has been cheapened by a ton (especially for ships) the BPC makes up a lesser percentage of the end product and thus the result of training rank 5 skills to V is to maybe safe 150k on a t2 frigate.

Or do you calculate your BPC's as having a cost of 0?

Well if they make good on the hints they were dropping about getting rid of T2 BPOs, things will be fine.

Let's hope they do that.