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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1441 - 2014-12-21 23:15:59 UTC
Ehud Gera wrote:

Wait.... you can rat while cloaked? Teach me this Voodoo!

So what you are saying is MORE people might be ratting in WH's now. Since anyone who already Rats in WH's won't leave because they are already used to cloakies hunting them
So..... This is actually a boost to WH population if people will use Recons to rat, not a nerf.

Follow your thoughts through to their actual conclusion. Not simply try to score points.
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1442 - 2014-12-21 23:26:22 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.

Just remove D-SCAN for everyone all together then. At least then it justifies your notion for ALL ships. As in surprises everywhere and for everyone.


Why stop there? Remove D-scan AND local! More fights everywhere for everyone all the time!
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1443 - 2014-12-21 23:30:37 UTC
Cartheron Crust wrote:
Why stop there? Remove D-scan AND local! More fights everywhere for everyone all the time!

And Conncord. And common sense.
Happy Ganksmas

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
Hardcore Pwnography Inc.
#1444 - 2014-12-21 23:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
my 2 cents/ ( for those that can't read or looking for tldr, I will be releasing my audio book of all my eve posts soon, stay tuned )

When I started playing EVE I wanted to get into Covert ops and follow that chain of ships through to black ops.
My idea of the pilot I would become in EVE, for various reasons was much different from reality. ( insert your troll here )

One of my biggest disappointments was the similarity between the two Recon ships. Where Covert ops for example the two ships are both in the same category but very different. In fact most classes of ships that have two or more ships in them are different, even if its just down to weapons used or range.

Yes they ( recons ) have some differences but my suggestion, or at least what I would like to see would be for each of them to be forced into fulfilling a different role but both using cloaks rather than not being detectable on scan.

It seems to me they are the natural progression from covert ops and EA frigates so why not have them use those bonuses in quite different ways.
Both use cloaks No targeting delay on the combat recon but a 15 sec reactivation and two bonuses to damage output and one to ecm
The force recon would be the opposite, two bonuses to ecm and one to damage or even none to damage and three to ecm.
Note: This is similar to how it is now but not across the board so the change wouldn't be so drastic.

The not detectable by d-scan is quite a cool feature on its own and the bonus would go both ways, but the problem I see with it is that it's juts a gimmick to make the recon ship flyable because that's what CCP is working on. We will see heaps of them within the first few months until they buff some other ship and make another one irrelevant.

It will also just force care bears into being even more care bears while making it easier again for gankers. And although I don't understand that gank mentality. ( which is basically, oh look a cat, kick the cat and proclaim, how superior you are to the cat )
I do understand it's importance to the game, I just think they have it pretty easy.

TLDR: Give combat recons a cloak instead and change how it uses that cloak and the bonuses it gets.

/2 cents
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
#1445 - 2014-12-21 23:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
I'd like to reiterate the biggest flaw with this change being that there is no downside to the bonus and it renders force recons almost 100% useless.

In low-sec the most common use for force recons is sitting on the inside of a plex, cloaked, with a bait frig. However, getting caught by this is 100% avoidable by taking advantage of said downsides. For instance, when you land on a medium just wait a few seconds and spam dscan. Many of them will decloak preemptively in order to avoid the locking delay. If they wait until you come inside to decloak then all you have to do is break point (they'll be 30km away because of cloak) range/kill their bait/warp away before either lock you and you're good.

With the new change the force recon will be replaced with a combat recon, that for whatever reason suffer none of these downsides and have better stats/fitting. All this on top of not losing a high slot to the cloak. How in the hell is this balanced? It's not.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1446 - 2014-12-21 23:42:10 UTC
Make sure those combat recon ships can't fit a cyno or cov ops cyno...

Been around since the beginning.
MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1447 - 2014-12-21 23:46:15 UTC
Tryaz wrote:
If you want good solo pvp why are you diving FW plexes? Sounds like those people weren't after a gf and you are probably just a nuisance to them. Get out of the nursery and take your frigate for a roam in Null. Catch is on fire at the moment with great targets for a solo pvper.


Oh I think they were after good fights, just my and their definition of this fights were not exactly the same.

I'm in low because I have no idea how to do logistics in null, am scared of bubbles, and am too casual at the moment to become more that much invested. I'm quite happy with doing some frig PVP in this game and not get completely slaughtered every fight. Can't expect a all-green killboard this way, I'm fine with that.

I was just trying to make the point that forcing fights on players with game mechanics won't change their view of the game. People will get frustrated and feel cheated, and I'm not sure that's a good thing to aim for, even in EVE.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#1448 - 2014-12-21 23:57:42 UTC
I'm sure this has already been suggested, and I apologize for not plowing through 70+ pages of posts.... :)

I think it makes more sense to make Recon ships immune to Local, rather than d-scan. It has never made sense to me why your ship would always automatically announce its presense to everyone in a low- or null-sec system anyways.

Local defeats the purpose of "stealth". In both RL and fiction, you don't have many instances where your covert or recon team makes a public announcement or shoots off a flare when making a quiet incursion into a hostile area. Nor would you have your ATC transponder turned on in your B-2 bomber while flying a combat mission.

In addition to Recons, I also think that Cov Ops, Black Ops, and BRs should also be immune to local. Maybe SBs, as well, but they would need to be nerfed somewhat. This would make covert operations much more interesting.

Besides, thanks to WH space, we already know how immunity to Local affects gameplay - it is not an unknown which may have game-breaking side-effects.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1449 - 2014-12-22 00:17:30 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Esmanpir wrote:
The delay between you seeing him on grid and him being able to lock you is as long as cloak targeting delay.

I have no idea what you talking about. When he's coming out of warp? Deceleration?
Aiyshimin wrote:
So after Proteus you just have to make sure to burn >80km from warp-in point when doing PVE. If you are in a ship that can PVE aligned, that's even better.

You have no idea what you talking about. Perfect conditions? In PvE? I cannot dictate where i will be on site, i go where loot cans are. Sometimes they are close sometimes more than 80 km.
Esmanpir wrote:
What chages is that you may land on grid with sebod/reseboed recons that you coudn't see on dscan. Combat probes are mandatory equipment for every ship in null and lowsec, if you are not in gang with a prober.

Sure everybody will be using combat probes now, that will create even more content. Everybody in the system will be jumping into safe spots/stations every time i want to find explo site. Ppl are risk awerse. How many stories did you hear about players want to do some pew pew and nobody wanted to engage them?


Combat recon warps to you, unseen on dscan. He arrives to your grid, you see him on your overview. From this moment it takes him as long to lock you as it would take if he was flying a force recon, and decloaked. No change here.

If you are in a frigate running relics / datas, just warp out or cloak, he can't lock you fast enough.



Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1450 - 2014-12-22 00:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of 'Information Warfare' abilities being built into covert and recon ships.

- A module or mode that allowed you to turn off local detection would be great. You could fool people into thinking you had left local while still being in system.

- The trade off would be the introduction of a new probe which detects cloaked ships. There would have to be some careful balancing to make sure it didn't just become the default probe type.

In combination with d-scan immune ships this would reduce the reliance on local and d-scan as perfect intel sources which I think would be good for the meta as a whole.

It has become too calculated.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Prince Amygdala
Helping Our Men Orgasm
#1451 - 2014-12-22 01:12:00 UTC
Krystyn wrote:
New Ratting/Plex plan: Immediately dock the second anyone enters local who isn't a blue.

New PVP plan fly unscannable fleets and gank people or fly lots of cheap suicide atrons.

Lame


Love the tears. The crybaby is strong in this thread.

The changes to Recon seem interesting, looking forward to trying them out. If the risk averse want to dock up and avoid playing the game because they can't be 100% safe in space anymore, good riddance. Go sit in captains quarters, lol.

But please, don't stop your ragetear posts. The rest of us are entertained.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#1452 - 2014-12-22 01:24:18 UTC
Prince Amygdala wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
New Ratting/Plex plan: Immediately dock the second anyone enters local who isn't a blue.

New PVP plan fly unscannable fleets and gank people or fly lots of cheap suicide atrons.

Lame


Love the tears. The crybaby is strong in this thread.

The changes to Recon seem interesting, looking forward to trying them out. If the risk averse want to dock up and avoid playing the game because they can't be 100% safe in space anymore, good riddance. Go sit in captains quarters, lol.

But please, don't stop your ragetear posts. The rest of us are entertained.


The criticism has few to do with risk aversion. The proposed changes support a gank culture (as opposed to "gud fight" culture) and make it harder yet for smaller groups and solo pvp pilots to use skill and knowledge to prevail against bigger groups.

This is just not something EVE needs right now, and I'm disappointed that CCP Rise blatantly ignores the concerns of what would seem to be a majority of players.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1453 - 2014-12-22 01:26:11 UTC
Kmelx wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
I can only guess that due to his own playstyle he somehow doesn't understand the reality of playing eve apart from big fleet fights. CCP should consider that this is a big part of their playerbase though because obviously they don't which is sad because they will lose subs with these players which is sad because Eve is generally an awesome game.


Actually he was a pretty prominent solo pvper called Kil2.

He and a corp mate of mine called Kovorix used to run a podcast and an in game channel called Bringing Solo Back, dedicated like the name says reinvigorating Solo pvp as a thing within eve and he was quite successful at doing this. His PVP videos are still up on Youtube, there are some genuinely good fights in there. Solo in BS and BCs, with some cruisers in there as well.

I used to listen to his podcast a lot, and though I was already a solo PVPer, he and Kovorix inspired me to go out and solo PVP, I used to roam from one end of lowsec to the other looking for goodfights, in all sorts of hulls, but I don't view that playstyle as viable anymore due to the changes to the meta, the increased blobbyness and the changes that have been introduced since he joined CCP.

His roots make it doubly ironic though, that many of the changes he has introduced or failed to object to have made the playstyle he advocated much more difficult, outside of throwaway frigs and destroyers in FW space or nullsec.

Battleship roaming is painful these days, BCs are largely a thing of the past, the meta has changed so that they are rarely used, mostly due to the crazy buffing of cruisers and the warp speed changes which make it painful to roam with these larger ships.

T1 logi is absurdly OP, to the point where you can't break it solo unelss your in a command ship or a BC, most camps or gangs run with multiple T1 logi, larger roaming gangs don't tend to bring T2 logi now, though, where they used to roam with 2 scimis, because they don't want to roam with less reps, so they recruit and bring more people and they bring 4 scythes, it's a change that encouraged blobbing.

Most of the solo and small gang community that I chat with on a regular basis, are deeply dissapointed with him, there are glaring balance issues in the game at the moment, T1 logis, Ishtar's, Geddons, to name just a few, that remain unaddressed despite CCP moving to a release cycle where they could easily take these matters in hand.

Personally I view him as a bit of a hypocrite these days, on the one hand he encouraged solo PVP when he played the game, but now he's working for CCP, he's made the playstyle he promoted something much more difficult. To the point that it is not worth doing in my opinion.


I always joked with blackops buddies that Rise wants to cripple solo PVP so that the **** he did in his videos (as Kil2) can never be topped :P
h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
Hardcore Pwnography Inc.
#1454 - 2014-12-22 01:26:47 UTC  |  Edited by: h3llra1z3r3 Arkaral
Prince Amygdala wrote:
Krystyn wrote:
New Ratting/Plex plan: Immediately dock the second anyone enters local who isn't a blue.

New PVP plan fly unscannable fleets and gank people or fly lots of cheap suicide atrons.

Lame


Love the tears. The crybaby is strong in this thread.

The changes to Recon seem interesting, looking forward to trying them out. If the risk averse want to dock up and avoid playing the game because they can't be 100% safe in space anymore, good riddance. Go sit in captains quarters, lol.

But please, don't stop your ragetear posts. The rest of us are entertained.



Nobody is ever 100% safe in EVE ( unless you station trade ect ) but nobody is ever 100% unsafe either, everybody has a fighting/fleeting chance. The fear is removing that chance completely and swaying it towards the 100 % unsafe.



Ab'del Abu wrote:


The proposed changes support a gank culture (as opposed to "gud fight" culture) and make it harder yet for smaller groups and solo pvp pilots to use skill and knowledge to prevail against bigger groups.

This is just not something EVE needs right now, and I'm disappointed that CCP Rise blatantly ignores the concerns of what would seem to be a majority of players.


+1
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1455 - 2014-12-22 01:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Aiyshimin wrote:
Combat recon warps to you, unseen on dscan. He arrives to your grid, you see him on your overview. From this moment it takes him as long to lock you as it would take if he was flying a force recon, and decloaked. No change here.


Are you a moron? That's a massive change!

Before: ship visible on d-scan for the last 14 au of their warp

Now: ship is just as un-detectable as a force recon

The ENTIRE POINT of distinguishing between combat and force recons was that one was difficult to detect but fairly useless in direct combat, while the other combined the support abilites of the force recon with the damage and tank of a combat hull, but AT THE EXPENSE OF STEALTHINESS.

Giving the combat recon the same element of surprise as the force recon completely steps all over the force recon's role in the game. It's stupid, and if you can't understand why then you're stupid.

On another note, I'm really glad that "COMBAT RECONS WILL BE INVULNERABLE TO D-SCAN" is proudly announced as part of the Proteus featureset in the latest dev blog. What ever happened to consulting the community and getting feedback before unilaterally taking a dump on game mechanics?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1456 - 2014-12-22 01:56:43 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Now: ship is just as un-detectable as a force recon

They are more detectable. Combat probes have much larger radius than d-scan.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1457 - 2014-12-22 03:23:41 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Now: ship is just as un-detectable as a force recon

They are more detectable. Combat probes have much larger radius than d-scan.


How many PVP or PVE ships typically fit combat probes?
Toxic Raioin
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1458 - 2014-12-22 03:39:12 UTC
Do Amarr really need 2 drone/neut ships in the Recon line? i would rather one be bonused for missiles or LASERS. Now is a great time to do this.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1459 - 2014-12-22 03:52:01 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Now: ship is just as un-detectable as a force recon

They are more detectable. Combat probes have much larger radius than d-scan.


How many PVP or PVE ships typically fit combat probes?

Now or after Proteus? I imagine that probing will become more important for both activities. Which is fine.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1460 - 2014-12-22 04:03:17 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Now: ship is just as un-detectable as a force recon

They are more detectable. Combat probes have much larger radius than d-scan.


How many PVP or PVE ships typically fit combat probes?

Now or after Proteus? I imagine that probing will become more important for both activities. Which is fine.


Being forced to gimp your fit to deal with an absurdly broken game mechanic is NOT fine.