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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1341 - 2014-12-20 23:33:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Objections have been repeated hundreds of times in this thread.


And, as has been mentioned, they are ragey, whiny rants without substance, and most of them are tacitly happy with the shape they are in now as largely worthless.

And you still refuse to actually address the topic.


Only you are raging and lashing out right now. The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.

I have no expectation that you have a better capacity to understand now than you did at any other time.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1342 - 2014-12-20 23:36:24 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.


Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1343 - 2014-12-20 23:38:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.


Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists.


You really are well beyond the bounds now my friend. You have exposed your true purpose to simply troll.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1344 - 2014-12-20 23:42:09 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.


Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists.


You really are well beyond the bounds now my friend. You have exposed your true purpose to simply troll.


I'm asking you to get on topic, cease personally attacking me (which is the first thing you did when you quoted any of my posts, for that matter) and actually address the topic with whatever theoretically legitimate arguments that you claim are already here.

And you refuse.

But somehow that makes me the troll.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1345 - 2014-12-20 23:44:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.


Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists.


You really are well beyond the bounds now my friend. You have exposed your true purpose to simply troll.


I'm asking you to get on topic, cease personally attacking me (which is the first thing you did when you quoted any of my posts, for that matter) and actually address the topic with whatever theoretically legitimate arguments that you claim are already here.

And you refuse.

But somehow that makes me the troll.


im sorry if i upset you and that somehow made it impossible for you to comprehend anyones posts.

Doesnt make you, by definition, any less of a troll.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#1346 - 2014-12-20 23:45:13 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
The topic has been addressed. Points have been raised.


Like what? Nevermind that all of them are wrong, but go ahead and give me an example, if one actually exists.


You really are well beyond the bounds now my friend. You have exposed your true purpose to simply troll.


Sorry Bro, you just got Crosi'd.

JUSTK is recruiting
Zemfadel
Hand Trade Society
#1347 - 2014-12-20 23:47:44 UTC
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1348 - 2014-12-20 23:52:40 UTC
Zemfadel wrote:
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...


Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#1349 - 2014-12-20 23:53:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zemfadel wrote:
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...


Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?


Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.

JUSTK is recruiting
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1350 - 2014-12-20 23:54:35 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zemfadel wrote:
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...


Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?


Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.


Im sorry but there are better places than these forums to teach people basic mechanics.

E-UNI springs to mind.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1351 - 2014-12-20 23:55:48 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zemfadel wrote:
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...


Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?


Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.


For about five seconds, I guess. But that's too short of a time window to see without using a d-scan bot anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#1352 - 2014-12-20 23:57:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zemfadel wrote:
So, these changes sound great to me but I can see how they could be problematic. Especially in wh space where ships that are designed to be very heavy tackle will now be undetectable until they land on top of you...


Couldn't you do that with a cloaked T3 anyway?


Nope, will show on DSCAN when it comes through the hole.


For about five seconds, I guess. But that's too short of a time window to see without using a d-scan bot anyway.


rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.

JUSTK is recruiting
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1353 - 2014-12-21 00:00:32 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.


Well, that's what you say, but it's a pretty big coincidence if you can be clicking d-scan literally constantly and spot the guy when he randomly pops in. I honestly doubt that you do that literally once a second, every second. If so I'd like to see your CTS surgery scars, lol.

Now, I would easily believe that wormholers use d-scan bots, however. I've known that to be a thing for a long time, and I suspect having that taken away from them is a large portion of why some are so upset about this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1354 - 2014-12-21 00:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Dude, do you think you guys could rebalance a ship class without introducing a new gimmick attribute that subverts core gameplay mechanics?

I'd strongly encourage you not to make any hull immune to d-scans, but even if you are dead set on doing this, combat recons are the wrong hulls to give it to. Why in the name of all that is holy would you give the steath bonus to the brawl-y hull instead of the sneaky one? The whole point of making a distinction between combat- and force recons is that one gives up combat abilities to evade detection, while the other rolls the same support abilities into a class that's also capable of fighting, but at the cost of not being sneaky.

The force recons could benefit from the d-scan immunity (allowing clever pilots to decloak whilst in warp to a target in order to wait out their recal timer without giving up the element of surprise, can't be seen on d-scan whilst covert-cynoing, etc), but would still have significant detractors (****-poor DPS, reduced tank, poorer slot layouts, etc) which would leave combat recons the superior choice for some usage scenarios. If you give the bonus to the combat recons, suddenly the only reason to use a force recon is if you want to be crossing on and off grids unseen or if you want to light covert cynos. Any time that you don't need to be entering grids, observing, and then leaving again without breaking cloak, a combat recon will be the better choice. You guys keep talking a strong game regarding "meaningful choices": but it doesn't seem like there's much of a choice here.

To reiterate, I think the entire concept of d-scan immunity is an absolutely terrible idea (if you want to move around without being seen on scans, that's what covert cloaking hulls are for). Please don't do this! But if you have to, at least give the absurd new bonus to a ship that can't also murderzone things by itself.
Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2014-12-21 00:07:42 UTC
Ehud Gera wrote:
@CCP Rise.

Can we get that explanation soon about the reasoning behind why you think Dscan immunity won't be OP?

I've been waiting with bated breath.

Especially (since you haven't released it yet), can you explain how it won't be OP in regards to small gang and solo?

This is really important to a lot of us.

Thanks so much in advance!!!

Ehud

PS: Playerbase includes many who want a balanced opportunity in Solo, Small Gang, and even those who just like to farm in WH's. I LIKE DOING WORK TO CATCH MY TARGETS.

PPS: Perhaps ask guys like Wingspan TT if things like bomb deliveries would be as fun if pilots didn't have to work so hard to catch their targets. Blink Cloaked ganking is it's own reward, Dscan Immunity is the easy button.


I, too, would like to see some reasoning for the change from CCP. It's odd that there has been no design purpose for this change given.

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#1356 - 2014-12-21 00:07:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.


Well, that's what you say, but it's a pretty big coincidence if you can be clicking d-scan literally constantly and spot the guy when he randomly pops in. I honestly doubt that you do that literally once a second, every second. If so I'd like to see your CTS surgery scars, lol.

Now, I would easily believe that wormholers use d-scan bots, however. I've known that to be a thing for a long time, and I suspect having that taken away from them is a large portion of why some are so upset about this.


Yes I'm upset because my prey can no longer use dscan bots to prevent me from killing them. Eh?
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1357 - 2014-12-21 00:08:26 UTC
The more I think about this, the less dramatic change it actually is. Yes, it affects some things more than others, but overall the D-scan immunity is a fresh new thing that will sprout new tactics, which is always awesome.

Bring it on and keep it up CCP :)

My Lachs are ready.

Angelo Schilling
Knights of the Protectorate
#1358 - 2014-12-21 00:08:50 UTC
Levina Windstar wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
I love all the bitching from the WH residents. Duh, they still have to probe your ass out, and your d-scan still picks the damned probes up! If your still on grid for the recon to find you by that point, your blown up even now, since you failed to get safe while they were probing you down!

Other then that, I do agree that overall, the Pilgrim still fails to shine.


Typical answer from a guy that doesn't have any clue how WH space is working. Let me enlight you :

YOU DON'T NEED TO USE PROBES TO SCAN PPL IN WH IF YOUR GOOD AT USING D-SCAN.

kthxbye


YOU DO NEED TO USE PROBES IF THEYRE IN A SIG NOT AN ANOM

kthxbye
Mei Khlolov
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1359 - 2014-12-21 00:31:35 UTC
Gonna weigh in on this. Dscan immunity is not going to be broken.

It's effectively a different type of cloaking.

Cloaking:
+ invisible on grid
+ Cannot be probed or dscanned

- Can be spotted on dscan while moving through gates/holes.
- targeting delay on decloak
- uses a highslot

Dscan immunity
+ Invisible even during gate/hole movement
+ no decloak delay/highslot use

- always visible on grid (can be caught by gatecamps)
- can be probed
- warp deceleration acts as targeting delay

Both styles have their advantages and disadvantages. The thing where Dscan immunity really excels is going through acceleration gates, undetected, but given the deceleration time, anyone even semi-aligned should still escape alive. As for things waiting inside plexes for you, well, we already have rapier gangs hiding in plexes.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1360 - 2014-12-21 00:54:37 UTC
An area of effect doomsday really excels at roflstomping everything on grid. Doesnt mean its balanced or even a good idea.