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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#821 - 2014-12-19 13:03:54 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?

Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function.

Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak from their dscan assessment just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!

It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. In a game supposedly with a huge basis in risk:reward.
Meh, I've never been a fan of the risk:reward crap for PVP. I've always thought it was more of a PVE thing, because in PVP risk:reward is largely controlled by the players themselves.

I'm more of a fan of the 'you're better than the others --> you win' thing, and I don't see how this dscan immunity thing would advantage 'bad' players in any way.

What I see is, lots of wannabe gankers flying around in combat recons, thinking 'lololol my dscan immunity is an easy win button', and being obliterated by better players that will put some effort in it (such as yourself, probably).

Stop thinking of (plausible) ways that the brain-dead dudes could kill you, and start thinking of the ways that will allow you to kill them, as they deserve!!!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Bentakhar
ANKOU INITIATIVE
#822 - 2014-12-19 13:04:14 UTC
To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,

Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.

So relax
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#823 - 2014-12-19 13:05:59 UTC
Bentakhar wrote:
To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,

Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.

So relax


But but my FW plexing!
HoruSeth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#824 - 2014-12-19 13:06:25 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
...


Excellent post which pretty much sums it incorrectly up for me.


You missed to type one word. I corrected for you. Why he is wrong was explained before your post.

On my gravestone will be written: "Died because he used sarcasm in the wrong moment"
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#825 - 2014-12-19 13:06:29 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
CCP Rise - the one explanation I would like from you is why D-scan immunity for recons is better than LOCAL IMMUNITY for recons.

Because that would be useless in W-Space.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#826 - 2014-12-19 13:06:29 UTC
Zappity wrote:
or YOLO
I admit this is usually my go-to option, so maybe I'm biased. Blink

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Bentakhar
ANKOU INITIATIVE
#827 - 2014-12-19 13:06:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bentakhar wrote:
To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,

Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.

So relax


But but my FW plexing!



FW kinda sucks Roll
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#828 - 2014-12-19 13:06:59 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?

Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function.

Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak from their dscan assessment just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!

It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. In a game supposedly with a huge basis in risk:reward.


Ah. OK, I see your point now, thanks for the explanation.

I'm afraid I don't agree that this is a problem particularly though. I think that the number of pilots whom currently warp to nearby celestials in an attempt to persuade possible cloaked recons on grid to shed their cloak and get rid of the targetting delay is extremely small, and that the ability to avoid giving the game away to those few clever pilots will not be considered worth giving up the ability of cloaked ships to remain undetected by far more numerous interceptor and covops scouts.

So I don't think this change will result in people picking the combat recons over cloaky recons any more commonly than they do now, and when they do choose to take the combat recon I don't think they'll be particularly more successful at tackling people who warp to them unsuspecting.
Luscius Uta
#829 - 2014-12-19 13:07:59 UTC
Dscan immunity is a terrible idea.
However, if there's no chance of it going away at least counter it with a big nerf to scan resolution - or even introduce some kind of a siege module that can only be fitted on combat recons, and they would be immune to dscan only when it's active. Having this module active would also give 75% penalty to scan resolution (and resebos wouldn't work) and it would prevent warping but not moving. No fuel use, cycle time 60 seconds. The recon siege module is not a well thought idea, but that's why I'm posting it on a public forum, to see if there's someone willing to improve it.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#830 - 2014-12-19 13:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Stop thinking of (plausible) ways that the brain-dead dudes could kill you, and start thinking of the ways that will allow you to kill them, as they deserve!!!
But I still have to plan to get through ubiquitous linked t1 logi, so I must bring significant damage projection, rather than a recon. Oh and I can't practically bring BCs or BSs for on-paper dps as they're pathetic in general, common situations, over bringing a HAC or pirate/faction cruiser.

Long ranged tackle won't kill people you don't outnumber, or have a minumum relative speed advange of your fleet vs theirs, which huginns would remove without warning. Damps also require a minimum number of dps ships & damps to be effective and even then can be piloted against so as to be negated. And again **** ECM. So how do I use these recons against overwhelming numbers? Force multipliers need a force to multiple. When both sides have them, the larger force is still stronger. Piloting & game mechanics choices just don't count for enough once you're committed to a grid in that case.
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#831 - 2014-12-19 13:14:13 UTC
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
How is the situation different between landing on grid with a dscan immune Lachesis and a cloaky Arazu? I really don't see it at all. In both case, the ship can see you coming in warp, and you can't see it before you land. They both point the same distance, and in basically the same time. So why is it better to have this new Lachesis than it is to currently have a cloaky Arazu?

Your second point, again, is completely the same as the current situation. You can't see cloaky ships currently coming in either, so why is it different that you can't see the new dscan immune ships coming in when they perform basically the same function.

Because the lach won't have to be on the ball and make the player action of decloaking sufficiently in time to have cleared their decloak delay. The lazy lach ****** can just see you land and go 'oh, something to tackle' and ruin your day. They won't be caught out trigging their decloak from their dscan assessment just to find you'd warped to a nearby offgrid tactical exactly to provoke that response in order to test for awake recon pilots!

It's promoting brain-dead gameplay from those that already have the numbers advantage because they're risk-averse blobbers. In a game supposedly with a huge basis in risk:reward.


Ah. OK, I see your point now, thanks for the explanation.

I'm afraid I don't agree that this is a problem particularly though. I think that the number of pilots whom currently warp to nearby celestials in an attempt to persuade possible cloaked recons on grid to shed their cloak and get rid of the targetting delay is extremely small, and that the ability to avoid giving the game away to those few clever pilots will not be considered worth giving up the ability of cloaked ships to remain undetected by far more numerous interceptor and covops scouts.

So I don't think this change will result in people picking the combat recons over cloaky recons any more commonly than they do now, and when they do choose to take the combat recon I don't think they'll be particularly more successful at tackling people who warp to them unsuspecting.


Nope, almost every passable good PvP lowsec Pilot does it. I do this all the time when i see a gate camp, warp in my ship at 0 and the bad ones on the other site just decloak their Rapier, Falcon whatever to get rid of the cloak delay. I know then what i have to deal with.
I mark every Falcon, Rapier pilot i encounter in game, everyone. If i see a marked one in local i won't blind warp into any medium plex at all, just warp to a nearby celestial and see if something decloaks.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Fatal pewpew
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#832 - 2014-12-19 13:14:31 UTC
well i know what i'm about to start flying.
Draciste
Everyone vs Everything
#833 - 2014-12-19 13:14:38 UTC
well, because Ceptors & Drones only age is still not enough, here is the third one - Recons age.

Ugh

https://twitter.com/Draciste
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#834 - 2014-12-19 13:15:00 UTC
Daneel Trevize wrote:
[. So how do I use these recons against overwhelming numbers? Force multipliers need a force to multiple. When both sides have them, the larger force is still stronger.


Well duh. When 2 equal forces are multiplied by two equal force multipliers, they're still equal forces. If one side is stronger to begin with obviously they'll still be stronger if they have the same recons.

Force multipliers help bring a weaker force in line with a stronger force that has no multipliers.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#835 - 2014-12-19 13:15:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Just finished reading everything that was posted over night. Here's what I can update with at the moment:

  • Biggest concern at the moment is the added EHP. Making recons a more realistic fleet option next to T3 cruisers is good, making them too tanky in smaller situations where their ewar already gives them a lot of damage evasion may be too much. Not sure if change is needed but will keep looking at this and update again asap.


    • If you reverse this, they will hardly be a viable option for fleet fights, but stay a big "hit me" sign in space :(
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #836 - 2014-12-19 13:19:31 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Bentakhar wrote:
    To all the people freaking out about the Dscan thing,

    Remember how you all freaked out about the interdiction nullifier susbsystem on T3 cruisers... And keep in mind the recons are cloaky anyway and can still be scanned down with combat probes.

    So relax


    But but my FW plexing!

    Oh my goodness, I am going to catch SO MANY of those miserable stabbed plexers with my Lachesis. There will be rivers in local.

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
    big miker
    Handsome Millionaire Playboys
    Sedition.
    #837 - 2014-12-19 13:23:27 UTC
    Oh CCP Rise. This time you are proposing something that is too much.

    I love doing one thing in EVE, which is flying nano Battleships against the odds. My latest 2 video's have been nano Battleships only. You know that, and you loved my latest video. Not to mention you liked my fight the most in the one man crew competition.

    And then I see this showing up. Combat recons imune to d-scan. What on earth are you thinking with this change? This will not only ruin the thing I love doing which is nano Battleships, but this pretty much ruins solo pvp in general except for frigate pvp.
    Do I seriously need anather few alts to place on gates in order to see if there are combat recons around?
    Not to mention, checking out POS's in systems to see if there's recons waiting inside?

    The situation you described earlier, 2 vexors and 2 rooks camping a gate. If you know what's on that gate you don't engage. Sure, that's logic! After the changes you do not see them on the gate so you warp in anyways. What happens? You die. Was it a fun engagement? HELL NO! Getting killed pointlessly.

    So in order to properly fight something now you need:
    - Scout alt
    - Combat probes. WTB additional highslot + 220 cpu increase on all ships.
    - Friends in scout ships

    Allright, you now have friends in scout ships warping around cloaked. Enemy gang sees you + corp m8's in local and see nothing but you on scan. What on earth will they think? Combat recons everywhere! exactly, they will either flee or not engage you at all becuase they are expecting the very same thing.

    This is just a rediculous example of what will become of solo / small gang pvp.
    Claoky recons do exactly what the proposed combat recons do right now.

    And then there's the risk vs reward factor. Cloaky recons can be seen / d-scanned when they jump in a gate and try to cloak again. Risk of using a cloaking device. When cloaky recons deloak they have a 5 / 6 second lock delay. Which is a risk. You are given a small time/frame to REACT on something that can get you killed., which basically is player skill.
    The reward is being able to warp cloaked in a VERY STRONG SUPPORT SHIP. Recons allready are very strong support ships.

    The DPS increase, cap increase and hitpoint increase makes them alot stronger than they are curruntly. Makes them desirable for larger fleets becuase they won't get instablapped as easily anymore.

    I understand you want do give ships a new kind of role, something that makes them stand out of the regular ships. D-scan imunity however is not something you are looking for. Cloaks do that with the proper risk vs reward they have right now.
    Not to mention wormhole space will be Recons online, combined with a t3 OP fleet that follows it.

    And please balance t3's asap. 150+k EHP Battleship DPS Cruisers with ewar bonus's is just stupid. Especially if you want to combine these things with d-scan imune Recons....

    - A very mad Miker

    Latest video: Ferocious 9.0 - Vertical Supremacy

    Nano Naglfar!
    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #838 - 2014-12-19 13:24:18 UTC
    Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    [. So how do I use these recons against overwhelming numbers? Force multipliers need a force to multiple. When both sides have them, the larger force is still stronger.


    Well duh. When 2 equal forces are multiplied by two equal force multipliers, they're still equal forces. If one side is stronger to begin with obviously they'll still be stronger if they have the same recons.

    Force multipliers help bring a weaker force in line with a stronger force that has no multipliers.
    You deliberately removed the context there, which was that I must first bring sufficient force/dps in a small gang situation, and so can't go off and plan to use the proposed OP recons, as they have the opportunity cost of not doing enough to overcome linked t1 logi as reliably as projected damage.
    Levina Windstar
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #839 - 2014-12-19 13:27:22 UTC
    Meaby I missed the info but if the recon is immune to D-Scan, will we be able to scan it with combat probe?

    So the only way to be "immune" to combat probe is to be cloaked?

    EDIT : Typo

    "I can make billions using my mouth ...

    ... and sometimes when I talk, too" --- Solecist Project
    Borachon
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #840 - 2014-12-19 13:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Borachon
    As someone who flies recons a lot, I like these overall.


    • The speed, cap, and EHP bonuses are all great and essential for these ships, particularly the combat recons; good job.
    • Not sure about the d-scan immunity. It's an interesting idea, and I'm happy to wait and see how it plays out. I expect it'll be a bigger deal in lowsec and w-space than nullsec
    • The pilgrim desperately needed the range bonus


    However, the force recons feel a little thin or disjointed. The covert cloak is powerful, but they already pay in high slots for it - the all have one fewer high slot and have to burn a high slot on the cloak as well. My suggestion:

    • Move covert cloak CPU bonus for force recons to be a 100% reduction as a role bonus, just like on covops ships.
    • Give all of the force recons the same second bonus for recon skills as the corresponding combat recon. ALl of these bonuses are tied to high slots, which the force recons have effectively two fewer of, so they're actually much weaker bonuses for the force recons than the combat recons.
    • I'm not sure it makes sense to have the falcon and rook have different weapon systems; as a result, there are there are no covert missile recons. I'd probably switch the falcon to get a missile bonuses from the rook instead of a hybrid bonus. EDIT: just payed closer attention to the rapier as a missile ship. Still would probably make huginn/rapier and falcon/rook use the same weapon systems, however.