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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
#661 - 2014-12-19 08:02:59 UTC
Also if you want ships to fall in line with t3s just make isk actually matter, the only reason t3s are op is because scrubs can get a pimped out one for 15 bucks or a few hours of incursions. T3s becoming overused is a perfect example of how isk faucets like incursions affect the meta. If its too easy to get e-rich (or too cheap to get e-rich with real life money) anything with even the slightest advantage will be abused no matter the cost because the risk has been made negligible due to inflation.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#662 - 2014-12-19 08:05:47 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Btw this change will end all solo PVP in this game. Literally and completely, all the activity that FW brought to lowsec will die.



You say this while I excitedly get ready to use solo rooks.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#663 - 2014-12-19 08:05:58 UTC
So curse and latch become overpowered and the pilgrim gets nerfed (again).

at least the recon bits for combats actually means something now

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#664 - 2014-12-19 08:12:48 UTC
Well this is just dissapointing. A curse is STILL worthless. The only good tank a curse could hope to get was from shields, and you are now removing shields and adding to hull wtf. Having a crappy tank, mediocre dps and kinda meh bonuses makes this crap. TD's cannot be reliably fit unless you armour tank, which is beyond ******** on a 4 lowslot tank. Removing shield mods for td's makes a curse worthless for fleet engagements because they always get primaried and will just get instapopped with the crappy tank. Neuts are not nearly as useful as something like ecm, first because they have a HARD range of 37.8km and second because medium neuts off a curse don't really neut enogh to be a threat unless they are neuting you over an extended time period, which never happens because they always get primaried because they have terrible tanks. Assuming t2 resists will resemble the zealot, then this is just bs, because amarr t2 has terribad shield em/therm resists.

The drone bonus is far less useful then you might think though because anyone with 1/2 a brain against just a curse will immediately kill your drones and laugh as you fail to kill them. Because you only really can have 2 flights of mediums (you need small drones to kill off frigs) this is a big deal. More to the point, this is in no way better then an ishtar. An ishtar has a better tank with the mwd sig reduction, can fit 3 medium neuts and run 2 of them fairly long, is still probably fastter and does wayyyy more dps. If you want to try a solo curse you are better 99% of the time with just buying an ishtar. If you are wanting to do fleet things, you are better off in flying a rook, which can actually have a shield tank and jam things (as opposed to td's), or a huggin/lach which can do range control far, far, far better then a curse ever could.

tldr: Curse still sucks at solo and gang engagements.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#665 - 2014-12-19 08:18:35 UTC
I knew Recon 5 was a sound investnment Pirate
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#666 - 2014-12-19 08:21:11 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Kontraband Venning wrote:
I don't normally post or get too involved in the rage over changes but as a FW small gang pilot I just couldnt stay quiet. This change will be terrible in the fw zone.

Small gang/solo rules for fw space after this change.

Never fly anything larger then what fits in a small. Otherwise you will be jumped.
Never warp into a medium with others in system.
Never sit in a medium.
Never sit outside of a plex.
Move out.





Or bring combat probes.

Or, you know...friends? Aside from the curse, there's really not much that can stand up to a small, disciplined frig gang.


Wut. A "disciplined" frig gang will just kill the curse's drones and lol into the sun about the curse kill they just got. Alternatively, if they see that someone is being td'd, someone is being pointed, the curse had an mwd, and nobody is being nos'd (very high chance of a cap booster) then they will know that the curse has AT best a 2-3 slot tank and will get roasted by just killing it and ignoring the drones. Considering most af's get a wonderful sig bonus nowadays and a big tank, I'd happily fight a curse stupid enough to engage me in a frig gang of 3+ people.
Lachesiss
Perkone
Caldari State
#667 - 2014-12-19 08:23:17 UTC
Somewhere in a Wh


"OK guys nothing on scan only 2 sleepers left"
"yeah awesome day making isk"
"Still nothing on scan"
"yep looks all clear and WWOOOAAAaaaaaaa"
"holy ****, where did those 10 curse come from"
"ah crap there goes my 5 bill ship"


Im sooooo gonna love this Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

On the third day after your birth myself and my sister's will come to you and decide your fate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#668 - 2014-12-19 08:24:25 UTC
Love these threads, we have one guy moan about how the curse is now overpowered instantly followed by someone else flailing around decrying the the curse is near useless.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#669 - 2014-12-19 08:24:54 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:

You frequently see Huginns and Lachesis in large fleet fights acting as long range points and webs. You frequently see Curse helping neut out targets of interest or capitals. But there is no secondary role for the Rook except for Jamming.


Anyone dumb enough to use a curse probably has no idea what they're doing. If people want to neut stuff out nowadays, they use bhalgorns or legions (Rich WH people) or geddons, domis or ishtars (not rich wh people). All of the above neut out more cap then a curse does with the exception of the ishtar, but the ishtar makes up for it by packing insanely imbalanced dps and having a stupidly good tank with a sig reduced mwd.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#670 - 2014-12-19 08:28:09 UTC
Every fleet right now is made up of Ishtars, so they do a balance pass on recons. GG CCP. Here's an obligatory do you even play this game comment.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#671 - 2014-12-19 08:28:35 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
why the literal **** isnt the curse getting a 5th low? do you still want shield tanking curses? i mean thats totaly un amarr.


I know right! Thats like minmatar having to armor tank a muninn... oh? That exists.. probably deal with it like minny pilots do. You at least have wtfpwn neuts going for you.

Well look on the brightside, at least your kin and explo resists will be really high.

deal with what? how minni pilots can change tanks on a whim and amarr cant? ok no thanks i dont want a shield curse i want a god dam armor curse. 4 lows on a punisher is one thing but on a ******* CRUISER designed to be armor tanked is another. especially when your always forced to have a stupid reactor control on it.



Here's a good solution. Make the curse, AS AN AMARR SHIP, capable of armour tanking. Man wouldn't that be novel.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#672 - 2014-12-19 08:30:16 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Every fleet right now is made up of Ishtars, so they do a balance pass on recons. GG CCP. Here's an obligatory do you even play this game comment.


Its not the ishtars that need nerfing its the drone they use.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#673 - 2014-12-19 08:37:21 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Well this is just dissapointing. A curse is STILL worthless. The only good tank a curse could hope to get was from shields, and you are now removing shields and adding to hull wtf. Having a crappy tank, mediocre dps and kinda meh bonuses makes this crap. TD's cannot be reliably fit unless you armour tank, which is beyond ******** on a 4 lowslot tank. Removing shield mods for td's makes a curse worthless for fleet engagements because they always get primaried and will just get instapopped with the crappy tank. Neuts are not nearly as useful as something like ecm, first because they have a HARD range of 37.8km and second because medium neuts off a curse don't really neut enogh to be a threat unless they are neuting you over an extended time period, which never happens because they always get primaried because they have terrible tanks. Assuming t2 resists will resemble the zealot, then this is just bs, because amarr t2 has terribad shield em/therm resists.

The drone bonus is far less useful then you might think though because anyone with 1/2 a brain against just a curse will immediately kill your drones and laugh as you fail to kill them. Because you only really can have 2 flights of mediums (you need small drones to kill off frigs) this is a big deal. More to the point, this is in no way better then an ishtar. An ishtar has a better tank with the mwd sig reduction, can fit 3 medium neuts and run 2 of them fairly long, is still probably fastter and does wayyyy more dps. If you want to try a solo curse you are better 99% of the time with just buying an ishtar. If you are wanting to do fleet things, you are better off in flying a rook, which can actually have a shield tank and jam things (as opposed to td's), or a huggin/lach which can do range control far, far, far better then a curse ever could.

tldr: Curse still sucks at solo and gang engagements.




WHAAAT? The curse worthless? It can defeat basically any turreted subcapital ship in this game.

I am not sure if serious or trolling. Comapring a RECON witht he ishtar.. the most OP of the HACs (that are already supposed to be more pwoerful in direct combat)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#674 - 2014-12-19 08:38:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Every fleet right now is made up of Ishtars, so they do a balance pass on recons. GG CCP. Here's an obligatory do you even play this game comment.


Its not the ishtars that need nerfing its the drone they use.



Although if they coudl field only 4 of them each time that would work as well... (although would push things to Domi online only)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#675 - 2014-12-19 08:39:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Love these threads, we have one guy moan about how the curse is now overpowered instantly followed by someone else flailing around decrying the the curse is near useless.



That means it is very likely well balanced.... as long as the complains on both sides are balanced.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#676 - 2014-12-19 08:42:22 UTC
The D-scan immunity makes combat recons just as strong as force recons (unlike everyone else, I think they're balanced), so they should have equal e-war capabilities (looking at you, Pilgrim's neut amount).
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#677 - 2014-12-19 08:43:58 UTC
Recons immune to D-Scan.

This might have worked back when one had to actually scan down every site. Back when you can "stealth" with ECCMs in the mids and force them to put the combat probes in closer.

Now it's suicide.

Why even leave highsec?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#678 - 2014-12-19 08:46:12 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


yeah you are. Here it is. Anything that is cloaked has a delay when the uncloak before they can lock something. So true you can't detect them, but when they uncloak they have to wait 5sec or more before they can start locking you. So when they show up on grid a guy still has a several second window where he has the possibility of escape.

!


Smart players already avoid that. You cannot lock or do anything for about 3 seconds after you enter grid and are finishign your stop in a cruiser nowadays. Smart people just turn their cloak of a few thousand KM before the end of the warp. And VOILÁ!! They can already do the EXACT same thing as the combat recons will be able to do!


The combat recons will have ZERO advantage onthat scenario over the force recons. The uncloak -> lock delay only mattered for when you were already hidden on grid and approaching slowly.. somethign that the combat recons cannot even envision to do

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
#679 - 2014-12-19 08:49:49 UTC
I'm wondering why people see the need to compare the combat v force recons on the same platform, they serve different roles. Might as well just remove one of them and just have 1 recon cruiser per race. Also I feel the need to repeat that the DSCAN immunity is going to be ******* broken
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#680 - 2014-12-19 08:52:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Lelob wrote:
Well this is just dissapointing. A curse is STILL worthless. The only good tank a curse could hope to get was from shields, and you are now removing shields and adding to hull wtf. Having a crappy tank, mediocre dps and kinda meh bonuses makes this crap. TD's cannot be reliably fit unless you armour tank, which is beyond ******** on a 4 lowslot tank. Removing shield mods for td's makes a curse worthless for fleet engagements because they always get primaried and will just get instapopped with the crappy tank. Neuts are not nearly as useful as something like ecm, first because they have a HARD range of 37.8km and second because medium neuts off a curse don't really neut enogh to be a threat unless they are neuting you over an extended time period, which never happens because they always get primaried because they have terrible tanks. Assuming t2 resists will resemble the zealot, then this is just bs, because amarr t2 has terribad shield em/therm resists.

The drone bonus is far less useful then you might think though because anyone with 1/2 a brain against just a curse will immediately kill your drones and laugh as you fail to kill them. Because you only really can have 2 flights of mediums (you need small drones to kill off frigs) this is a big deal. More to the point, this is in no way better then an ishtar. An ishtar has a better tank with the mwd sig reduction, can fit 3 medium neuts and run 2 of them fairly long, is still probably fastter and does wayyyy more dps. If you want to try a solo curse you are better 99% of the time with just buying an ishtar. If you are wanting to do fleet things, you are better off in flying a rook, which can actually have a shield tank and jam things (as opposed to td's), or a huggin/lach which can do range control far, far, far better then a curse ever could.

tldr: Curse still sucks at solo and gang engagements.




WHAAAT? The curse worthless? It can defeat basically any turreted subcapital ship in this game.

I am not sure if serious or trolling. Comapring a RECON witht he ishtar.. the most OP of the HACs (that are already supposed to be more pwoerful in direct combat)


Assuming this is solo/very small gang, where the td is really only capable of being fitted onto a curse due to the tank loss, anyone with a brain would just bumrush the curse, scram it and own face or disengage.

I'll give some examples of other common turret ships that might be fielded:

Vagabond: Can tank the curse for an extremely long time, while killing drones. That assumes he screwed up and didn't try to scram the curse, seens how it's now the big meta to have a asb scram vaga.

Deimos: Either he's rail fit and tries to snipe you and when he fails because of td he runs away OR he's blaster fit, which gurantees a scram and blamo he scrams the curse, nukes him with his sick dps and keeps his own stuff on with a nos. The curse might be able to win this if he makes the deimos chase after him like a dummie and neut him out, but that also assumes buffer fit without a cap booster. One of the big metas nowadays is a cap booster with a medium ancil armor repper. So if he gets neuted and nos'd he, simply cap boosts away to freedom or kills the curse. Either way the deimos wins.

Nomen? They all have cap boosters nowadays and so he probably disengages. He's fast enough that no curse can catch him.

Vigilant: New meta is rails, when the vigi get's td'd he disengages. He has vastly better speed/agility then a curse so he would have to be beyond stupid to get neuted out by a curse.

Cynabal: charge curse, own him with autocannons at short range, ezy pzy. If you have a long point instead of scram you run away

SFI: Cap boosted so he either runs away or gets a scram and laughs into the sun

THAT SAID, most solo pvpers now are in either ishtars or cerbs, both of which **** out curses for breakfast. Most ratters are also in either ishtars or gilas or carriers too, so again nbd.

If you fitted td's on a curse in a gang situation, you're already dead because either:

1. You tried fitting a 4 slot armour tank and got instapopped.
2. You tried fitting a td to a shield tank and got instapopped.