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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
Daros Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#701 - 2014-12-19 09:37:42 UTC

Changes look interesting the only stuff i'm not that happy with are the changes to the pilgrim. As it is now you can pick from the long range super neuter curse, but no cloak or get in point blank range and hard neut with the cloaky Pilgrim. After the changes the pilgrim will just be a weaker, cloakier version of the curse, and with the dscan immunity there will be few reasons to pick it over the Curse.
A cloaky WH pilgrim will have 2 of the 4 highs occupied with cloak and probe launcher leaving only 2 neuts. It is fine now with the bonus to neut amount but not without it. At least give it another high for a extra neut (and change grid to fit) OR lower the bonus range by a lot and keep the neut amount bonus.
Or just leave the neuts/nos bonuses as they are.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#702 - 2014-12-19 09:38:01 UTC
The Huginn could really use a buff to its PG - fitting a rack of 720s with nothing else will leave it with only ~40 grid to spare, so you're going to need multiple RCUs/ACRs to fit a tank and prop mod on an arty setup.
Infrequent
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#703 - 2014-12-19 09:40:32 UTC
Boltorano wrote:
You've basically made scout alts mandatory for "solo" complex runners.

Thanks so much. Ugh


No they haven't, recons are invis to dscan, not probes.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#704 - 2014-12-19 09:42:42 UTC
Isnt it weird that all the amarr recons are drone dps (no lasers) and all the gallente recons are hybrids (no drones)? I would expect to have at least one laser recon in game and gallente to have at least one drone-based recon...
hellokittyonline
New Order Mining Authority
Safety.
#705 - 2014-12-19 09:45:24 UTC
Zappity wrote:
:shrug: Don't sit at zero on the beacon. You will see them as soon as they land on grid.

Perfect intel is bad, just like perfect stealth is bad.


You clearly have no idea what we're talking about so let me explain.

First of all you seem to be under the assumption that lowsec pvp consists of sitting in a plex and waiting for someone to warp in on you but fail to realize that SOMEONE HAS TO WARP IN ON YOU. So lets assume you're on the other end and you're the one doing the warping (which already puts you at a disadvantage). You dscan a plex and find a ship that would be a good fight, you warp in on said ship, take the gate only to find him sebo'd out the ass to insta point you and a recon that is immune to dscan sitting there ready to rip your face off, not fun.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#706 - 2014-12-19 09:45:25 UTC
Infrequent wrote:

No they haven't, recons are invis to dscan, not probes.

A common tactic to hunt plex runners is fishing.
You scan a plex beforehand and wait for an unsuspecting target to run it.

This way there are no probes.
Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
Goonswarm Federation
#707 - 2014-12-19 09:48:58 UTC
@CCP Rise, why is it that the celestis is still more effective with damps than the recon counterparts, it gets a 10%bonus to effectiveness the T2 only get 7.5%, i think these need to be balanced so with both are 7.5% or both 10%
Davader
Space Cleaners
The Gorgon Empire
#708 - 2014-12-19 09:49:23 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Pilgrim without its neut amount bonus? One word: Ugh. ...


Please, don't break the pilgrim! It is very nice close ranged anti-carebear killing machine, you are taking his most valuable bonus off! Why?

Leave the range bonus for Curses, but please don't make a Pilgrim to be some weaker kind of a Curse. The pilgirm will be used even lesser than now if you change its main bonus!
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#709 - 2014-12-19 09:53:32 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I don't understand all the complaints about the d-scan thing. How is this different in principle to the covert ops cloak? It 'breaks' just as many things as d-scan immunity does. But then I've always thought that there should be a specific probe to detect (if not necessarily resolve) cloaked ships.


A number of people have replied to you on this, its all about reaction time, covert cloaked ships have a delay before they can lock, which means if you are on the ball you can react to it. Bombers are too squishy so will die, the same goes for interceptors, for example I belt rat in Stain using two Phantasms fitted for PVP, I take great care to be away from the warp in area, working out on the non-bonused range of an Arazu. A bomber decloaks I kill it, an interceptor comes in on me I kill it. An Arazu decloaks has a delay, I can try to get out or I can set myself to deal with it and what comes in, the trick here is that how close are they to you and what they bring in, but the targeting delay is key.

Also system selection is key, the system I use allows me to mainly keep an eye on the stations in terms of D-scan, so if someone undocks in an cloaky I will know that, so can get prepared, also if they warp in cloaked they generally come in at a distance and then have to get close to you so they risk decloaking.

A Force Recon ship and the one that worries me the most is the Lachesis with its long point will undock and I will not see it, it will warp to a belt and I will see it when it arrives on grid, it will have no cloak delay, so its locking will be fast, they will brick tank it and fit it for fast locking. That means that I have less time to get ready, less time to GTFO and of course then in comes the blob, the people who camp Stain currently park an AFK claoky in system and hope you think they are afk, my method is to wait a bit then go next door, normally an hour later they arrive in the system and you just rinse and repeat.

All that will happen is that these people will park up Combat Recons in multiple systems and just lock you out of any PvE, the only good things is that they cannot drop BLOPS, however the people who try to lock down Stain do have Titans, so it just becomes impossible.

My fun was operating in there regardless of these people trying to lock it down, I will even operate with people in system once I have an idea what they are in, because you fly to their weakness and your own strengths, but the Lachesis is just too damn OTT, so imagine a Lachesis and a Curse coming in on me, I have zero chance, so instead of being in space and playing I end up saying the risk is too great, so either stay docked up in station when anyone is in system or forget about NPC 0.0 entirely, which means that I have no reason to continue because hisec bores me to death...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Erehwon Rorschach
LoGisTicAl ERr0R
#710 - 2014-12-19 09:54:51 UTC
As much as the idea of being able to hide my alts from D-scan and sit inside a FW plex is appealing, the overall implications this will have is huge.

I like the other changes, but the d-scan immunity is one I am not in support of.

Please don't implement it in this state.

Because your mum just couldn't say no.

Broker Jack
EvE Magic Lab.
#711 - 2014-12-19 10:04:52 UTC
I think its a good time to boost faction energy destabilizers and vampires range that give a good role for curse in big fleets.
Syzygium
Nagamoto Inc.
Come in and freak out
#712 - 2014-12-19 10:10:56 UTC
@Pilgrim: Instead of 40% Rangebonus for Neuts, they should give her 20% Range and 20% Amountbonus. This way you had ~30km Neutrange which is not as good as the Curse but a lot more flexible than then crappy brawlingrange now, while still have a good neutcapacity.
hellokittyonline
New Order Mining Authority
Safety.
#713 - 2014-12-19 10:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
I think recons already have well balanced rolls, maybe tweak the stats a bit, but even that's going to be a moot point unless you're adjusting fitting/# of slots/bonuses. This honestly just feels like more completely random ccp tweaking implemented only for the ability to say "we're doing stuff" so that people don't complain about the real problems that they cant fix because of the endless strings of backend code that they still know little to nothing about (such as off-grid boosting)
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#714 - 2014-12-19 10:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
hellokittyonline wrote:
You clearly have the IQ of a squirrel because I said nothing about the availability and was obviously talking about the frequency of use. Notice I said "T3s becoming overused" and not "T3s becoming more available".

But to answer your question, when a pimped t3 suddenly costs $15 instead of $30 you better believe you're going to see more of them.

By availability I mean scarcity or abundance, which directly affects price. If you want them to be rarely used due to price, you must change something in material / effort cost to make them. Tweaking ISK printing volumes will not affect that in the slightest in the long run. Prices will just adjust accordingly if you do, both ISK/PLEX and ISK/T3 ones, if you're so concerned about real money equivalents.

In short, the reason you see a lot of T3s is because a lot of T3s are built. Without production factor you can have all ISK in the world and still be unable to buy them to the extent that you "overuse them". If they aren't as much more expensive than T2s and other K-space produced ships as you think they should be, then it's because it doesn't take that much more effort to build them relatively to T2s and Co, at least not enough for their price to be sky-high. Again, all is relative because T3s aren't exactly cheap and easy to build.

I've left out some of market processes and fluctuations here, but point stays since T3 market doesn't seem to be that unhealthy despite D3 introduction troubling it.

Nami Kumamato wrote:
CCP - increasing the levels of paranoia and jump-scares daily! :D

I've never noticed how fitting term "jump-scare" is to describe something that happen to people in EVE on daily basis, especially if you lack intel.

Anyways, can someone make breakdown on justification behind Pilgrim bonus changes? More practical arguments pro/against partial Curse bonus (some range + some amount)? I really feel that Pilgrim just loses its niche, stepping on Curse's toes and probably getting wrecked by it in the process...
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#715 - 2014-12-19 10:16:02 UTC
Combat Probes, people. Yes, you CAN see those Combat Recons entering system, waiting for you on a site, or escorting a friend who's running the site. Drop those probes and you'll see: if it appears on the probes and not on D-Scan, then it's a Combat Recon. That's it. And remember you can place probes all over the system, much further away than your D-Scan range, effectively covering by yourself a much bigger volume. You can even place 1 or more probes at each gate, wormhole or even some sites. And, that will warn you of any kind of ship that is not cloaked, even if you have no Local.

And the insta-lock due to not being cloaked: every non-cloaked ship can do that. Even cloaky ships, if they pursposelly drop their cloak a few thousand kilometers before landing. So, stay away from those warp--in points and you'll have time to see it arrive and mash that Warp button. Especially when the incoming ship can't warp cloaked, such as... Combat Recons. And if it lands directly on you due to Combat Probes... you should have seen them in D-Scan and have acted accordingly.

You have tools to know about incoming ships; use them and you'll avoid not only Combat Recons, but many other ships too.



Now about the ship stats, I wonder if the Rook could get RLML's bonused too, or if that would be too much for it to have.
Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
#716 - 2014-12-19 10:17:31 UTC
I, too, am not convinced that this dscan immunity is a good idea. It mainly hurts PvP'ers who don't have scout alts.

Rise, I hope you can symapthize with this group of people. Life is hard enough as a solo or small gang PvP person, do you really want to make it worse?

Besides, what goal are you trying to achieve with this? People are using both kinds of Recons for good reasons at the moment, and that's fine. Like Suitonia said, if there is any reason that the non-cloaky ones aren't being used, it's that they are too similar to the cloaky variant, not that they aren't stealthy enough.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#717 - 2014-12-19 10:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Things that worry me:

- I'm not so sure the Rook will be on par with the others especially because ECM tends to require more slots to work
- that Rapier will need some looking at, sounds fairly OP to me
- Dscan immunity causes all kinds of power creep problems and binary ship choice issues, a possible can of worms I'm not so sure we should open
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#718 - 2014-12-19 10:22:30 UTC
Skyler Hawk wrote:
The Huginn could really use a buff to its PG - fitting a rack of 720s with nothing else will leave it with only ~40 grid to spare, so you're going to need multiple RCUs/ACRs to fit a tank and prop mod on an arty setup.



Good point. The ships is clearly made for arties ( AC without falloff bonus on a ship with web range bonus woudl be nonsense)

A ship should always be able to fit the weapons it is intended to use and the basic rest of the fits without need of a PG module. PG module should be used when you want to extend a bit over the basics.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#719 - 2014-12-19 10:23:21 UTC
Kyang Tia wrote:
I, too, am not convinced that this dscan immunity is a good idea. It mainly hurts PvP'ers who don't have scout alts.

Rise, I hope you can symapthize with this group of people. Life is hard enough as a solo or small gang PvP person, do you really want to make it worse?

Besides, what goal are you trying to achieve with this? People are using both kinds of Recons for good reasons at the moment, and that's fine. Like Suitonia said, if there is any reason that the non-cloaky ones aren't being used, it's that they are too similar to the cloaky variant, not that they aren't stealthy enough.



What? what youare smoking? No one uses laechis, huggin and rook . They are more invisible than their cloaky brothers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Devil Seven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#720 - 2014-12-19 10:26:30 UTC
The Pilgrim should have a 10% bonus to strength as well it should be able to out neuts t1 neut vexors or decrease the cap use of neuts