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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#501 - 2014-12-18 22:06:30 UTC
Saraki Ishikela wrote:
You've essentially made the ultimate solo hunter. Not being detectable on D Scan? Sure it sounds awesome from the side of the hunter but creating a mechanic in which the player has no defense to or can't protect himself from isn't any fun for the victim. You're creating a scenario in which players will have no recourse to protect themselves no matter how skilled, or what fit. The advantage is purely in the hunters had being invisible on both D Scan and cloaked physically they can choose any engagement they want and their victims upon reflecting on their death cannot logically say what they could have done differently to change the outcome of that engagement with the exception of docking up any time anyone comes into system with them.

TLDR Game Mechanics should offer counterplay and reward players for smart choices and decision making. This ship stacks the deck in one side.


Exactly! Since docking up really is the only defense you left them a lot of less fights will actually happen. While the other changes are really good d-scan immunity will turn out to be bad for pvp and bad for the game as a whole.
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
#502 - 2014-12-18 22:06:31 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:


D-scaninvis will hurt alot.
FW plexes will be permacamped outside of the gate to farm easy kills, a Lach+Huginn will be easymode.



We need to gamble more. Gates are no longer enough.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#503 - 2014-12-18 22:08:07 UTC
I hope they remove local next
MuppetsSlayed
Angelus.Mortis
ISK.Net
#504 - 2014-12-18 22:10:23 UTC
U can see the type of player who is in favour of the Not on DSCan changes.

However for the other 95+% of us ...

Currently if your in a plex with a gate even an afk cloaky on local cant sneak up on u if you spam directional like a boss.
Cause when they activate the gate they show on dscan.

This seems to be something that will make afk cloaking even more effective.

I fear these changes will make even more apects of eve unuseable.
I can see there being a need for solo players running plexes to run a trial account with eyes on plex gates.
DFA200
Hard vs Soft
#505 - 2014-12-18 22:10:40 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Saraki Ishikela wrote:
You've essentially made the ultimate solo hunter. Not being detectable on D Scan? Sure it sounds awesome from the side of the hunter but creating a mechanic in which the player has no defense to or can't protect himself from isn't any fun for the victim. You're creating a scenario in which players will have no recourse to protect themselves no matter how skilled, or what fit. The advantage is purely in the hunters had being invisible on both D Scan and cloaked physically they can choose any engagement they want and their victims upon reflecting on their death cannot logically say what they could have done differently to change the outcome of that engagement with the exception of docking up any time anyone comes into system with them.

TLDR Game Mechanics should offer counterplay and reward players for smart choices and decision making. This ship stacks the deck in one side.


Exactly! Since docking up really is the only defense you left them a lot of less fights will actually happen. While the other changes are really good d-scan immunity will turn out to be bad for pvp and bad for the game as a whole.


Agreed. Making things more one-sided in a game where people are generally risk averse, is not a good idea.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#506 - 2014-12-18 22:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
CCP Rise wrote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

WTF! Shocked I need to sober up for this thread.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#507 - 2014-12-18 22:14:16 UTC
Can the arazu have some drone bonuses too please?
because you know , gallente drones etc etc

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#508 - 2014-12-18 22:14:34 UTC
Levina Windstar wrote:
I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.

CCP plz... think about WH too! :/


I completely agree with this. If this change goes through I see major recon gangs roaming wh's now. And why wouldn't they? You can have an entire fleet now with extended webs, scrams, neuts, and boosted jams and be invisible to anyone not on grid with ZERO cloak lock delay.

I would be ok with this feature being implemented with the one exception being that combat recons are still visible while decloaked in wh's. Build it into the lore or something that wh's messed with the directional scan jammer signals or something you guys are creative.
Guth'Alak
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2014-12-18 22:19:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Close the gap somewhat between Recons and T3 Cruisers, though this will also be a goal during the T3 Cruiser rebalance

    • Thank Bob! its about time!
    Tex Raynor
    Guardians of Asceticism
    #510 - 2014-12-18 22:30:31 UTC
    I'm curious though.. what ship(s) are people flying that a combat recon landing on grid means insta-death? Combat recons roaming wormholes? You are more likely to see a fleet of recons rage-rolling their static and thus new sig = stop, scan and assess the situation, like it already is.
    Alexis Nightwish
    #511 - 2014-12-18 22:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
    I'm on the fence with these changes. I feel they might be overshadowing HACs a bit, and I'm definitely opposed to buffing the defense of force recons that much as they can fit cov ops cloaks.

    Perhaps bring the resistance profiles of the force recons up to what the combat recons are now, and up the combat recons up to HAC-level?


    Also, special attention needs to be given to the Rook as it must split its mids between tank and ECM, its lows between damage and ECM, and its rigs between ECM and all the other things that compete for rig slots. The result is either go for ECM and fly the Falcon, or go for damage and fly a Cerberus, Drake, (insert ship that does missiles better).

    Perhaps change the Falcon's bonus to ECM range instead of strength, and/or give a stronger missile/ECM bonus to the Rook?


    EDIT: Having thought about the Dscan change I feel that it's too overpowering, but I like the concept.

    Consider changing it from "100% immunity" to "+17.5% chance per level that you will not show up on Dscan" so if you hold still long enough, Dscan passes will find you, and if you have a group of players who are all spamming it, you'll be seen.

    Another possible alternative is "17.5% reduction in the range you appear on Dscan per level" so at level V you would have to be closer than about 1.8AU for someone to see you.

    EDIT 2:

    If you're changing the Huginn to a pure projectile ship, you need to raise the PG by a decent amount, and probably lower the CPU a bit. Though TBH I'd prefer it was a missile ship and the Rapier remained a projectile ship.

    Likewise, if you're changing the Rapier to a missile ship it needs more CPU and less PG.

    Maybe the CPU on the Lach should be dropped down a notch due to it losing the missile bonus (thank you for fixing this! Split weapon systems are almost always stupid as hell, especially on recons where they're already split with their EWAR)

    CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

    EVE Online's "I win!" Button

    Fixing bombs, not the bombers
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #512 - 2014-12-18 22:33:03 UTC
    BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
    So, who wants to buy me a curse?

    Afk miners don't watch d-scan anyways.
    Shaleb Heworo
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #513 - 2014-12-18 22:33:12 UTC
    I really don't understand the stealth aspect with combat(!) recons. These should not hide but actively seek combat. The hiding aspect of reconnassance is covered with force recons! Combat recons should get a probing and/or scan resolution bonus since that just fits the aggressive aspect of reconnaissance. Wouldn't that be a solution? Maybe not the most spectacular one but a solid one!
    Zanquis
    Hynix Galactic Industry
    #514 - 2014-12-18 22:33:43 UTC
    I like the direction they are going in the OP, however I'm not sure if enough thought has be placed on the real role it will play. I like the unique bonus, but how will this play out?

    I see the ROLE of this ship being an overt heavy ewar boat designed to withstand a small to medium engagement. I see them having a medium to close range focus with cruiser maneuverability, an above average tank, and slightly better damage then a T1 combat focused cruiser. This would place it at less damage then a hac, likely the same tank.

    The purpose of this ship would be to brawl and deliver the Ewar at ranges close enough to put it at risk. This would make it well placed in faster nano gangs that hit you hard and fast. It would also give the game a ship that is more capable of delivering Ewar in combat and surviving. Picture them as the Vanguard.

    IN all honesty in many cases the ships themselves are close to what they need to be. What is needed is a meaningful role bonus that will bring them into their own. The role bonus I suggest would help with the problem of having to fit the basics and ewar modules at the same time, especially for the Rook who also shares tank with mids. With these role bonuses the slot layout can be rejigged to allow for a greater ewar focus, with better fitting choices

    ROLE BONUS:
    20% Shield or Armor resistance bonus
    50% Bonus to Afterburner Speed
    Qual
    Knights of a Once Square Table INC.
    #515 - 2014-12-18 22:34:05 UTC
    Levina Windstar wrote:
    I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.

    CCP plz... think about WH too! :/


    Come on! It is brilliant. Dont think about what THEY will do to you. Think about what YOU can do to them. Muahahahahaha!

    Live in a WH. Love the idea. Cool
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #516 - 2014-12-18 22:36:19 UTC
    I don't think I have ever been killed by just a recon before. Was there some massive boost in firepower I didn't see in the OP?
    Sable Blitzmann
    24th Imperial Crusade
    Amarr Empire
    #517 - 2014-12-18 22:36:54 UTC
    Typo with the curse:

    Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-187) / 1650 / 1075(+203)

    I'm showing current value for shields/armor/hp as 1238/1463/872, making the only modification to make sense the hull HP. Can you clarify
    Fzhal
    #518 - 2014-12-18 22:41:22 UTC
    Okay, I really like the idea of removing Combat Recons from D-Scan, but as explained so far it is too OP. This would make at least one Combat Probe Launcher required for every solo or gang PvP. Combat Probes aren't easy to fit... This change would effectively/eventually cause D-Scan to be removed or replaced by the current probing mechanics.

    Current safety practices by security to keep in mind for the rest of this post:

    • High - Carebear safety goggles on max polarization
    • Low - D-Scan everything except gates and understand that unknowns in local could be allied and people can hurt PvP viability with cloaks
    • Null - Unknown in local = Warp to safe/POS and maybe get combat ship
    • WH - D-Scan done every few seconds (Why is there no hotkey for this? Because of macros isn't a great reason.)


    Places D-Scan immunity NOT OP:

    • High Sec for the most part
    • 0.0 - Face it, with Local, Cyno's, alliance/region chat, and all other intracacies/practices that happen in Null... this is a very small issue


    Places D-Scan immunity IS OP:
    *Caveats - Most of this can be done with less powerful Cov Ops Cloaking ship .

    1. Mission/Ship Balancing - This literally impacts the balance of all game content for those who PvE in unowned territory "No one is just out of D-Scan range or passing through system..." Combat probes or you're stupid
    2. Faction Warfare (Moderate) - This is meant to be a PvP gateway for newbies (FW signup should give a popup for optional D-Scan training regardless). Combat recon sits in FW medium+ plex for easy KB-padding/LOL-fest because Combat PL gimps frigates
    3. Anomalies/Plexing in non-alliance territory - Anything that doesn't need probing to find (I personally think that all Null/WH sigs should require probing, maybe Low Sec but it would complicate FW. It makes sense in High/low Sec because Concord does it.)
    4. Wormhole Corps (Moderate) - See Anomalies/Plexing/Balance above, but delayed local makes it worse. WH residents have benefit of switching ships so don't equip Combat PL. If Anomalies stay same, this requires them to have one Combat PL in system while doing Anomalies
    5. Wormhole Daytrippers (Moderate) - See Wormhole Corps above. This would decrease WH daytripping significantly


    Let's face it, with best practices in mind, FW has flooded low-sec and made it much more dangerous than anywhere else.
    So this mainly affects solo and small gangs because, for the most part, Combat Recons are much better in situations when DPS/Tank is favored over the cloak of Force Recons. So that means that the OP factor can be quantified as the difference in combat usefulness between Combat and Force Recon ships. Funny, this whole time I thought I would end up concluding that this is way OP, but it really isn't. That being said, I still think that it is a little overpowered in FW and Wormholes only.

    Suggested changes relating to D-Scan immunity:

    • Warp disables D-Scan immunity (FW plex camping issues remain)
    • A drawback, because solo and small gangs are limited on intel and in those cases D-Scan immunity has 90% of the Cov Ops Cloak's benefits. Something like longer lock time, but that is tricky because the Combat Recons have a good niche that should be augmented, not rebalanced. Something better would be something like a new module or T3 Destroyer toggle that causes locking delay for 4-10 seconds after turning it off.
    • D-Scan immunity only works if 100Km from all objects - D-Scan works if they're within gate/WH range (Mostly fixes FW issues, but not sure about ECM range)

    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #519 - 2014-12-18 22:42:39 UTC
    In the end, as long as local remains a thing; nothing will change in regards to combat recons causing more PvP to happen. No one waits for the ship to appear on D-scan before warping to the safety of a POS/station/safe spot to cloak.

    The other issue is a PvE fit ship is no match for a PvP fit ship. Flying a PvP fit ship to do these PvE sites is crazy talk and sticking around to fight a PvP fit ship with a PvE setup is equally silly.

    CCP, you have to address this sooner that later. Only then will you have the freedom to be as creative as you want when it comes to balancing these ships.
    S'No Flake
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #520 - 2014-12-18 22:43:43 UTC
    Marlona Sky wrote:
    There is a couple things here I am concerned about:

    • ECM still offers no counter play. Effectively rendering a player unable to do anything for at least 20 seconds plus the time it takes them to relock anything. 99.99% fo all combat in this game involves locking a target. ECM drones turn any ship into a diet Blackbird. ECM needs to be revamped from the ground up and should not involve removing a players ability to play the game.
    • Celestis being incredibly powerful from 100+km is silly.
    • If it turns out combat recons not being on the directional scanner is an option, perhaps showing the ships as the T1 version of the ship instead would be a good compromise. i.e. the directional scanner shows an Arbitrator on scan when in fact it is really a Curse.
    Semi-related, but what are the odds of a new high slot module that can not be fit if there is any type of cyno fit as well, only allowed for recons and means they do not appear in local? Perhaps I am dreaming a bit too hard here.


    The counterplay to ECM it's the damp from Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis.. Hell, Keres does a great job at that too :)