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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#521 - 2014-12-18 22:48:05 UTC
I see a lot of FW carebears whining. CCP could just disallow Recons from your cribs, I mean plexs.
Dani Maulerant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#522 - 2014-12-18 22:50:03 UTC
Eh, dscan immunity is pretty way out there. If anything it makes the two versions of recons much closer to the same as force recons cloak to not appear on scans, while combat recons have a built in effective cloak just long as they're not on grid.

Looking at the curse/pilgrim for instance, Curse seems miles better. Both a neut range and amount (very important), while being effectively cloaked when just simply not on grid. Pilgrim now getting a range bonus but the neuts work at base drain amount as if fitted to a T1 cruiser like they often are anyways, and with only a couple being able to be fit really exacerbates that issue.

I really hoped Pilgrim would shine, as well as force recons in general, but it seems Curse will be the solid go-to one with its Dscan immunity (effectively a cloak), tank, neut amount on top of range. and more highs to fit more neuts that further multiply that capability.

And while probing is 'possible', it's not a reasonable expectation to impose on everyone.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#523 - 2014-12-18 22:53:20 UTC
Those of you decrying directional scanning as an "effective cloak" must not do a lot of gatecamping.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#524 - 2014-12-18 22:53:55 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Also worth pointing out that this invalidates many guerrilla warfare techniques that solo and smaller entitys use to engage larger groups. One technique is warping to a different celestial in a system and engaging there, hoping the enemy forces are split up, and you can guage by the directional scanner what is following you and their arrival time roughly, with these new combat recons that is thrown out of the window entirely, even if a cloaked recon follows you they have to suffer from 5 second decloak timer+lock time, and the fact that they tend to be more vulnerable and bring less DPS than the combat varients, which gives you more counterplay, and time to try and disengage or kill your target before it can influence the fight, I really dislike taking away this ability.

Complex/Site/Mission runners will now need a mandatory alt watching the entrance of their plex, if you were vigilant with directional scanner you could detect covert ops invaders and the cloaking delay gives you time to try and escape or fight.

FW will probably be hit hardest by this, you see a t1 cruiser in a medium plex on d-scan, great, you go in with your cruiser, then find a curse and 2 rooks on grid. Likewise, you could be in a t1 Cruiser, see another t1 cruiser come in so decide to stay and fight. then 2 rooks come in and it's gg and you couldn't possibly prevent it without having an alt watching the entrance. A combat recon could also capture plexes without anyone ever knowing about it unless there is someone watching the inside constantly, which invalidates a lot of FW sieging and defensive plexing.

I only see this ability being used to gank people who can't possibly scout these ganks, unless they have meta knowledge, which is a lot like hotdrops (Which is one of the reasons why you nerfed long distance travel and jump bridge ranges to curtail this type of gameplay)

This ability is not useful to solo/small gang players who roam to engage other players in nullsec, and possibly more organised lowsec, since they'll quickly be reported in intel and as soon as a combat recon is spotted they know you're in one when they see your character in local and just leave whatever they're doing assuming you're there. this ability is not useful to large fleets who are scouted anyway, and are large enough that they can't really hide their shiptypes, and would probably prefer their recon pilots had covert cloak + cynosural field bonus for escalation potential.

I feel like this ability only punishes solo/small gang players

You realize that bombers can get lock the second they decloak, right? They have no recalibration delay. I've caught stuff like that before. Is that OP? How about if I sig tank it so it takes you 5 seconds to lock while the rest of my allies land? Is that too OP for you?

IF you're in a DED site, you're moving around. You're not sitting on the gate, even if you're armor tanked. You'll have time while the recon lands and starts locking you. It's the same as if a Garmur lands; you barely have any warning and it can point you from a hell of a long range.

As a small gang player, I disagree with you completely.



Stealth Bombers are incredibly vulnerable, having just a few thousand effective hit-points even when buffer fit, especially if they operate in disruption range, cloaked bombers and recons have to 'sneak up' on you, so they are much harder to be used offensively than the new combat recons, since you not only have about 5-6x more time to sort yourself out, clear the scram/web rats, align out, get as much valuable loot as you can etc, as cloaked ships need to approach at base speed, while also avoiding obstacles in sites which can decloak them. if someone lands on you because you're already set up, that's perfectly fine. Remember that FW Plexes also have a 30km non-cloak radius around the button, so a cloaked bomber would still need to approach a small distance before getting the 'insta' heated disruptor on you, and you would not be scrammed by this, which is very important when it comes to being able to disengage. All the current recons aside from an officer scram Arazu which requires a complete glass-fit with expensive RCUs cannot turn off your MWD from outside the FW plex non-cloak range. Even if you're moving around in a DED site, it's not always possible to be perfectly aligned, and outside a potential 90km disruption from a Lachesis, while also having to apply your DPS meaningfully to the rats, and looting the containers/structures, while also dealing with scram/web rats.

Garmur can be seen on directional scanner, it has the same warp speed as a frigate. I think it's perfectly fine.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2014-12-18 23:01:58 UTC
Rise if I were you I woudl reverse rapier and huggin on missiles and guns. Rapier already has cloak. It doe snto nee d to have the strongest weapon system to add on that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#526 - 2014-12-18 23:06:01 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
I'm on the fence with these changes. I feel they might be overshadowing HACs a bit, and I'm definitely opposed to buffing the defense of force recons that much as they can fit cov ops cloaks.

Perhaps bring the resistance profiles of the force recons up to what the combat recons are now, and up the combat recons up to HAC-level?


Also, special attention needs to be given to the Rook as it must split its mids between tank and ECM, its lows between damage and ECM, and its rigs between ECM and all the other things that compete for rig slots. The result is either go for ECM and fly the Falcon, or go for damage and fly a Cerberus, Drake, (insert ship that does missiles better).

Perhaps change the Falcon's bonus to ECM range instead of strength, and/or give a stronger missile/ECM bonus to the Rook?



The recons have far less DPS and do nto get signature reduction. They are not brute force comprable to HACS, but they can be as effective isf not mroe with usage fo the Ewar.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#527 - 2014-12-18 23:10:55 UTC
"Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners " Shocked

Well, that makes the cloaks almost useless. This goes against the grain in so many levels and makes recons op.

I'm all for making them "unique" but this is unique enough they now don't belong in EVE anymore.

Totally against it.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#528 - 2014-12-18 23:13:45 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Mr Floydy wrote:
Tarek Raimo wrote:
Your spotters see that 50 of them are Ishtars/Tengus/Whatever FOTM + Logi, the other 50 are unaccounted for. Therefore, they could be any of four shiptypes with HAC tanks, dangerous EWAR and the damage potential of at least an AF.


Or it could be a fleet of 50 cloaky Proteus/Stratios each with over 500dps and a massive tank that have bridged in..... Oh wait that can happen now.


You could still spot those at the moment they bridge in and before they can activate their cloak.
Also, who seriously bridges 50 cloaky T3s to a covert cyno anyway, let alone that I would like to see a cloaky Proteus fit that does 500+dps.



[Proteus, Covert Gank]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Republic Fleet Warp Scrambler
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Hobgoblin II x5

>550 dps with Void
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#529 - 2014-12-18 23:16:13 UTC
wrote:
I don't think I have ever been killed by just a recon before. Was there some massive boost in firepower I didn't see in the OP?


never been killed by a curse?

i did see one kill back in o6 where it was a curse and a vegabond.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2014-12-18 23:16:35 UTC
People are way overreacting to the scan immunity.

Any cloakwarper already had that.

Force recons, STRATIOS, T3, Bombers.


VERY little change in the metagame. Most people already react to LOCAL and not dscan. Exaclty because other cloak warpers already made unsafe to rely on the d-scan as an warnign system. If you are aligned you can still warp when the combat recon get in gridd before he gets to full stop and is able to lock you. And if you were not aligned you were already going to die to a cloaked recon, Stratios or t3.


The only place where they might tip things a bit too much is in WH space.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#531 - 2014-12-18 23:17:24 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
wrote:
I don't think I have ever been killed by just a recon before. Was there some massive boost in firepower I didn't see in the OP?


never been killed by a curse?

i did see one kill back in o6 where it was a curse and a vegabond.



MAybe you shoudl re read his sentence. JUST A RECON.. that means a recon and nothign else. That curse and vagabond would appear very well on D-SCAN.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Hemmo Paskiainen
#532 - 2014-12-18 23:17:29 UTC
Hello, i might have a curse bpo that i might sell. Mssg me

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?

Iyokus Patrouette
Noir.
The Network.
#533 - 2014-12-18 23:21:10 UTC

Role Bonus:
Cannot be detected by directional scanners


Yeah, the guys in corp are excited about this because no local + no d scan in wormholes makes things very unbalanced on the hunter/prey game play that comes with wormholes.

I am personally raising an eyebrow and moving all my solo PvE ships back to high sec as i will no longer be able to pve in my static wormhole unless i enlist an army of scout alts to watch all wormholes / POSes in a system and possibly buy a few more monitors so i can watch all those screens.

Currently skeptical about this change.







---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#534 - 2014-12-18 23:22:11 UTC
S'No Flake wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
There is a couple things here I am concerned about:

  • ECM still offers no counter play. Effectively rendering a player unable to do anything for at least 20 seconds plus the time it takes them to relock anything. 99.99% fo all combat in this game involves locking a target. ECM drones turn any ship into a diet Blackbird. ECM needs to be revamped from the ground up and should not involve removing a players ability to play the game.
  • Celestis being incredibly powerful from 100+km is silly.
  • If it turns out combat recons not being on the directional scanner is an option, perhaps showing the ships as the T1 version of the ship instead would be a good compromise. i.e. the directional scanner shows an Arbitrator on scan when in fact it is really a Curse.
Semi-related, but what are the odds of a new high slot module that can not be fit if there is any type of cyno fit as well, only allowed for recons and means they do not appear in local? Perhaps I am dreaming a bit too hard here.


The counterplay to ECM it's the damp from Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis.. Hell, Keres does a great job at that too :)

How do you do that when you are jammed? Ugh
Heleana Commodus Luyseyal
Suddenly Carebears
Holesale Operations
#535 - 2014-12-18 23:22:16 UTC
Pilgrim at that state will be useless.

On slow moving, low agi, cloaky solo hunter (we dont have many of those) adding range instead of bonus neut amount in my opinion is useless, his medium and small neuts reach his operational range allrdy (5-6km) , and making him cloaky curse makes no sense.

How about to squize

"• Energy Vampires fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level"

......somewhere in there, if you want to add diversity +1H slot

On pilgrim?
Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to STRENGTH of tracking disruptors

On curse?
Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor EFFECTIVNESS

What will be diffrence betwen Strength and/ on other side Effectivness of tracking disruptors?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#536 - 2014-12-18 23:23:10 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
RIP anything trying to close on a hyugen now.



Why? It is EXACTLY the same regarding that as it was before.

No ship was able to caught up on a huggin before.. and will continue to be. Ifyou want to catch a huggin you need to warp in close or kill him from range (they are not that sturdy)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#537 - 2014-12-18 23:24:24 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
S'No Flake wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
There is a couple things here I am concerned about:

  • ECM still offers no counter play. Effectively rendering a player unable to do anything for at least 20 seconds plus the time it takes them to relock anything. 99.99% fo all combat in this game involves locking a target. ECM drones turn any ship into a diet Blackbird. ECM needs to be revamped from the ground up and should not involve removing a players ability to play the game.
  • Celestis being incredibly powerful from 100+km is silly.
  • If it turns out combat recons not being on the directional scanner is an option, perhaps showing the ships as the T1 version of the ship instead would be a good compromise. i.e. the directional scanner shows an Arbitrator on scan when in fact it is really a Curse.
Semi-related, but what are the odds of a new high slot module that can not be fit if there is any type of cyno fit as well, only allowed for recons and means they do not appear in local? Perhaps I am dreaming a bit too hard here.


The counterplay to ECM it's the damp from Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis.. Hell, Keres does a great job at that too :)

How do you do that when you are jammed? Ugh



The arazu locks faster than the caldari one. So the caldai one will be dampened before. The advantage of the caldari one is beign able to neutralzie more than 1 ship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

coik el tuerto
Farmhouse.
Simple Farmers
#538 - 2014-12-18 23:26:02 UTC
I always hoped for the huggin to become a rapid light boat just like the bellicose, but it seems you took the easy way out with projectiles =( but im still happy with buff.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2014-12-18 23:26:18 UTC
Regarding Fw plexes, I often fly solo and I honestly do not understand what all the fuss is about.

Tomorrow: dscan-immunity games

Today: visible frigate to grab point + cloaky whatever for surprise buttsex

What's the difference?


In both cases, if you're truly alone you're probably dead. Gf in local, add smartasses to watchlist.

In both cases, if you want revenge just pretend you're solo then call your buddies in for surprise gangbang.


Seriously, what's the whining about? New tools, new tricks, new counters.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#540 - 2014-12-18 23:28:14 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
Hello Rise, I think the changes you've made to the covert recon line are great and all make perfect sense.

I'm not really sure what direction you're taking the Combat Recons in, the undetectable on directional scanner feels like a really situational bonus that will either incredibly powerful if you're in situation which allows you show up to a fight your opponent is unprepared for (like at a 5000km bookmark off a gate, or in wormholes). Or otherwise negliable, I don't think the Combat Recons offer anything for small-med gangs aside from people who are setting up traps. And when you're setting up a trap, why not use a Falcon instead of a 5000km bookmark Rook, or their varients, it doesn't offer much in addition to the Falcon. The main problem with Combat Recons is that they don't offer much different game play from the Covert variant, with exception of the Curse. Why take a Huginn in a fleet when a Rapier does the same job with more tank, with cynosural field and covert cloak.

I would much rather see a heavier focus on damage bonuses on the Combat Recons, remove the directional scan immunity. Take them in a direction similar to the Heavy Interdictor changes that you rolled out in Oceanus. Which will make them more appealing to use in small gangs and solo, where people care more about DPS.

Here are a few examples

Huginn
High: 4, Mid: 6. Low: 4 (3 Launchers)
MC: 5% to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire, 10% to TP effectiveness
RC: 60% to web optimal, 10% to Missile launcher velocity, 5% to missile launcher explosion velocity
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to missile damage.
Drone: 40m3
(8 Effective Launchers)

I think this is much more interesting than a projectile focused Huginn, and also provides progession from Bellicose -> Huginn. Both Short and Long range missile launchers benefit from longer ranged webs and bonused target painters which has more synergy. The Rapier already has more of a focus on turrets anyway, and it provides it with something to differentiate itself from the standard web loki which uses projectiles.

Rook:
High: 4, Mid 7: low: 4 (3 Launchers)
CC: 10% to Kinetic Missile damage, 10% to ECM capacitor cost
RC: 30% to ECM Strength, 10% to launcher velocity, 5% to missile launcher explosion velocity
Drone: 25m3
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to missile damage
(9 effective launchers kinetic locked, 6 effective launchers non kinetic)

The Rook needs to differentiate itself more from the Falcon, an extra low allows it to achieve better DPS output, better tank, or more EWAR power at the expense of not having the covert cloak. In contrast to the Huginn, the Rook has higher raw damage output than the Huginn but locked into kinetic, not having the synergetic web/TP bonuses that the Huginn has, and being slower, it comes close to the Cerberus/Othrus in terms of raw DPS output, but at the expense of being much less mobile, more vulnerable and with lower cap stability.

Lachesis
High: 4, Mid: 6, Low: 4 (3 turrets)
GC: 5% to Medium hybrid damage, 7.5% to damp effectiveness
RC: 20% to Warp Disruption range, 10% to Medium Hybrid Optimal range, 7.5% to medium hybrid tracking
Drone: 50m3 (+10)
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Medium Hybrid damage
(7.5 effective turrets)

I like your redesign of the Lachesis a lot, but think it should be focused more towards higher damage, 5 effective turrets isn't enough imo.

Curse. - Keep it the same, remove the directional scanner immunity, 3rd bonus added to recon ship skill, +5% to Drone MWD Speed and Tracking.


Much better proposal on all accounts IMO.