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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Budrick3
Moira.
#441 - 2014-12-18 20:37:45 UTC
I think lack of D scan is a poor idea. Though I live in a wormhole, I fear for people in FW attempting to run plexes just to be completely outclassed when they warp in their thorax on a pilgram.

Just encourages more blobbing for protection and discourages the solo guy.
Tex Raynor
Guardians of Asceticism
#442 - 2014-12-18 20:41:18 UTC
Wormhole player here - Awesome changes, especially the d-scan immunity.

Remember folks, what they can use against you you can also use against them. As far as FW goes, good luck locking a frigate with 2-3 warp core stabs anyway using a combat recon.

Combat probes should still be able to detect combat recons as far as I understand it, so there is at least that.

Another thing people can do is fit up some sort of defensive mods on their PVE boats such as various drone damage types, neuts, mjds, ecm, omni tank... a warp disruptor is not the only difference between PVE and PVP ships!
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#443 - 2014-12-18 20:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Cant wait till these changes hit. Wish we didnt show up in local with recons, covert ops and black ops too.

Havent read this section yet, but I cant wait to see all the tears from the null bears on the combat recon dscan immunity! !!
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#444 - 2014-12-18 20:47:30 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
RTSAvalanche wrote:
Faction Warefare has been completely broken since Incarna, now you are telling me that recons with web, neut, damp & ECM bonuses will be able to hide in plain site in FW plexes and there is no conventional way to find them.

Even if combats work to find them, we would have to do that for every plex...


Scanner probes != Your Directional Scanner. Combat Scanner Probes are very much a 'conventional' way to find bad guys - especially ones that can't warp cloaked, and get hit with the full cloak delay if they're trying to ambush you cloaked. Meaning they won't be cloaked.

Gotta say, I really like the idea.

For solo roaming, how do you expect people to fit an expaned probe launcher on their ships?

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Sir Livingston
Doomheim
#445 - 2014-12-18 20:48:01 UTC
WHAT!? Shocked
The power of being undetectable on d-scan is absurd.

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#446 - 2014-12-18 20:49:46 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Querns wrote:
It's also pretty amusing that people still decry ECM as overpowered, when it's been consistently shat upon over the last four years. To put it into finer perspective — Goonswarm Federation, an organization for whom the use of cheap, T1 disruption cruisers is signature, abandoned ECM entirely in favor of sensor dampening and tracking disruption. This ought to tell you how unreliable jamming is in the current meta.

That's because ECM in a small gang/solo environment is extremely over powered, but is insignificant in large scale combat. Damps are the reverse. Do you understand now?

No, because damps are better in the small scale combat scenario too, because they are guaranteed to work.

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Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#447 - 2014-12-18 20:49:58 UTC
First concern would be the ability for the Huginn to project damage out to ranges that meet it's web range without any projectile optimal or falloff range bonus. This may be a concern for other ships as well, but the Huginn is the one I personally would fly.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#448 - 2014-12-18 20:50:05 UTC
Tarek Raimo wrote:

You could still spot those at the moment they bridge in and before they can activate their cloak.
Also, who seriously bridges 50 cloaky T3s to a covert cyno anyway, let alone that I would like to see a cloaky Proteus fit that does 500+dps.

Being pedantic..... If they cyno in outside of your dscan range..... But yeh, I'm being pedantic.

As to 50+ covops bringing in. Can't see anyone doing it, but you really think someone's going to turn up with a fleet of just 50 Recons which is going to have **** poor dps compared to a load of dps ships?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#449 - 2014-12-18 20:51:50 UTC
Things to consider to making things equal, the electronic warfare stuff is somewhat out of whack at the moment.

We currently have,

- turret disruption
- target painting
- stasis webbifiers
- capacitor neutralizers and draining for self
- and sometimes ECM

All of them but the last do not fail.

People complaining about being jammed but do not consider that being dampened for sure is as if not even more powerful.

Turning your long range guns to never hitting short range ones, slowing down your boat from 60km away or turning it of completely is even more screwd up then not targetting a boat is.

Your options on your offline neuted boat are even worse then flying out of jamming optimal range is. Thing is you are pretty much able to to anything you want but lock that jamming boat.

In the recent years jamming was nerfed, nerfed and even more nerfed. Now they is no tech 2 boat that can get jammed permanently or at all.

The only thing a Falcon can jam are tech one frigates and a few tech one cruisers. Everything else is a maybe and that maybe is your soon to be lossmail.

In order to make ECM as good as the rest of the electronic warfare the Falcon and the Rook should have at least a +60% if not +90% ECM strength bonus per level.

And while we are doing the unexpected, can we get rid of missile tracking too?

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Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#450 - 2014-12-18 20:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
I like the rapier as a missle boat. I wound like the huginn to have that as a realistic option as well. Over recent years a significant population of matari t1 missle boats have emerged (breacher, talwar, bellicose, scythe fleet, cyclone, typhoon and typhoon fleet), taking this formerly secondary weapon and utilizing as the primary weapon. Yet sadly this style has not been supported in the t2 line with the obvious exceptions of the hound, claymore and huginn. Which makes it more puzzling that the huginn is leaving this style as missles are underrepresented in the t2 lineup.. The combination of paint and webs has a nice synergy with missles, it seems odd that the naval architects would go out of their way to feature a weapon system which is not native to the bellicose hull. If projectiles are desired as an option a more pleasing path would be split double strength bonuses such as on the fleet typhoon and fleet scythe.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#451 - 2014-12-18 20:54:49 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

And while we are doing the unexpected, can we get rid of missile tracking too?


What missile tracking?

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Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2014-12-18 20:55:01 UTC
TuCZnak wrote:
Is there still that monument in Jita? Because if the dscan thing goes live, we'll need something to shoot at.


Unfortunately, it no longer appears on d-scan.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#453 - 2014-12-18 20:58:30 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Get ready to feel the wrath of my Curse (again)!


lack of imagination by the CSM is disturbing
Tarek Raimo
Eleutherian Guard
#454 - 2014-12-18 20:58:57 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Tarek Raimo wrote:

You could still spot those at the moment they bridge in and before they can activate their cloak.
Also, who seriously bridges 50 cloaky T3s to a covert cyno anyway, let alone that I would like to see a cloaky Proteus fit that does 500+dps.

Being pedantic..... If they cyno in outside of your dscan range..... But yeh, I'm being pedantic.

As to 50+ covops bringing in. Can't see anyone doing it, but you really think someone's going to turn up with a fleet of just 50 Recons which is going to have **** poor dps compared to a load of dps ships?


Maybe not 50, but imagine if you scale that up. For example imagine a fuckyoufleet style setup where all the damping ships have the tanks of HACs, long range points, and much higher DPS than a Celestis and can't be seen on dscan before they are on grid.
Daevaron Raianor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#455 - 2014-12-18 20:59:59 UTC
Please introduce a rig that grants D-scan immunity (for recon only) that gimps locking speed/cpu&pg. As a hull bonus it only adds to the 'misery' of being a small group/solo player due to the limited counterplay, while for blobs its neigh pointless.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#456 - 2014-12-18 21:02:21 UTC
When you scale up to massive numbers I don't think that brief period of warp in not knowing what you are going to fight is even slightly relevant to how the fight will go. If you're fighting in fleets of that size and haven't got scouts to see enemies coming you deserve anything you get!
Liz Aun
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#457 - 2014-12-18 21:02:29 UTC
I was hoping for a reason to fly my rapier more


Even though it at first sounds awesome not being visible on d-scan, I think this change is breaking a core mechanic of the game.

I also couldn't help dreaming (stupid, I know) for some better e-war thing than tp bonus. I know it has its uses but it feels so lame compared to the other e-war types that imo are much more useful. For both fleet and solo.
TP bonuses for minmatar ships always left me feeling cheated for taking that route.

I also really dislike the switch to missiles, though it might make the tp thing make a little more sense. I think web and turrets is a better combo so I'll probably just keep my rapiers under the dust covers.


Rapiers has always been the ship I dreamed to fly but almost never did. No change there I think.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#458 - 2014-12-18 21:03:34 UTC
Daevaron Raianor wrote:
Please introduce a rig that grants D-scan immunity (for recon only) that gimps locking speed/cpu&pg. As a hull bonus it only adds to the 'misery' of being a small group/solo player due to the limited counterplay, while for blobs its neigh pointless.


Nah, you'll see them when they land on grid.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#459 - 2014-12-18 21:05:31 UTC
Liz Aun wrote:
I was hoping for a reason to fly my rapier more


Even though it at first sounds awesome not being visible on d-scan, I think this change is breaking a core mechanic of the game.

I also couldn't help dreaming (stupid, I know) for some better e-war thing than tp bonus. I know it has its uses but it feels so lame compared to the other e-war types that imo are much more useful. For both fleet and solo.
TP bonuses for minmatar ships always left me feeling cheated for taking that route.

I also really dislike the switch to missiles, though it might make the tp thing make a little more sense. I think web and turrets is a better combo so I'll probably just keep my rapiers under the dust covers.


Rapiers has always been the ship I dreamed to fly but almost never did. No change there I think.


webs are pretty much the most powerful module in the game. you don't really have anything to complain about on that front.
Budrick3
Moira.
#460 - 2014-12-18 21:07:16 UTC
Tex Raynor wrote:
Wormhole player here - Awesome changes, especially the d-scan immunity.

Remember folks, what they can use against you you can also use against them. As far as FW goes, good luck locking a frigate with 2-3 warp core stabs anyway using a combat recon.

Combat probes should still be able to detect combat recons as far as I understand it, so there is at least that.

Another thing people can do is fit up some sort of defensive mods on their PVE boats such as various drone damage types, neuts, mjds, ecm, omni tank... a warp disruptor is not the only difference between PVE and PVP ships!


What ? Not everyone lacks balls and only flies a frigate with warp core stabs while pursuing FW.

I would like to think that one day FW will transition to more than just desi's, frigates, and mordus ships.