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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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BKuCKy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#301 - 2014-12-18 17:47:10 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Diivil wrote:
Combat recons should at least show up in dscan if you are on the same grid with them. Majority of Eve use dscan tools and it would be extremely frustrating to not be able to copy a certain ship type from dscan list when you can clearly see it in your own overview.

Good point.

Lol no-scan recons is a death to WH carebears. Less WH carebears -> more price on T3 ships -> more $ players spend for PLEX -> PROFIT for CCP!
RTSAvalanche
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#302 - 2014-12-18 17:48:20 UTC
Lonan O'Labhradha wrote:
Boltorano wrote:
You've basically made scout alts mandatory for "solo" complex runners.

Thanks so much. Ugh


See below. If you look in the Role Bonus section, the D-Scan-proof recons cannot fit covert cyno, so you can't be unaware of a in incoming hot drop on your accelerator...

Not showing up on D-Scan is already a property of any ship that can fit a Covert Cloak, like the T3 cruisers, which are already more dangerous than Recon ships and will continue to be so.

If you're in a plex, you're already protected from close warp ins, so if you don't want to use a warp gate scout, just make sure you stay out of point range from the beacon and fight aligned. SOP?


PILGRIM

Role Bonus:
80% reduction in Cynosural Field Generator liquid ozone consumption
50% reduction in Cynosural Field Generator duration
• Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator
• Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds


CURSE

Role Bonus:
Cannot be detected by directional scanners



These will be the new "falcon alts"

That will appear with out warning mid fight.
&

Perhaps you see a ship on scan towards a small / medium / large plex - you warp there only to find that the ship you saw is sebo fit with a recon waiting there to denie the fight
eg. a sebo thrasher on a small gate
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#303 - 2014-12-18 17:49:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Appreciate all the discussion. The work day is ending here so I'll let this continue tonight and talk over the feedback with my colleagues in the morning and then get back to you with responses to specific issues.

Thanks



Dear Rise,

Have you considered shifting the midslots / lowslots on the Curse?
It's pretty much the only ship in the whole Amarr Lineup that somehow oddly favors shield tanking.
Since there is the need to fit medium neuts, which eat tons of PG, there is only few Powergrid left to make an armor tank work.
The achievable EHP are quite similar on Shield and Armor, however this should, at least in my opinion, not be true for a ship which's race is exclusively focused on armortanking.

I know that the power of a Curse on grid is immense, but somehow it just doesn't feel right to tank it on armor. The buffer is roughly the same, with significantly less chances of survival on an incoming damage spike while armor tanked, just for the reason of Armor Reppings landing on the end of the cycle.

Which all in all translates into a Recon that is either flying in a shield gang - and sacrificing half it's ewar bonuses - or in an armor gang, severly impacting it's own chance of survival.

I'm not asking for 'Ze Brick', but you really should consider switching the slot movement of Combat Recons to Force Recons where the 'cloaky', more gtfo'ing variants have actually more capability to tank on armor.


Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#304 - 2014-12-18 17:50:20 UTC
RTSAvalanche wrote:



These will be the new "falcon alts"

That will appear with out warning mid fight.
&

Perhaps you see a ship on scan towards a small / medium / large plex - you warp there only to find that the ship you saw is sebo fit with a recon waiting there to denie the fight
eg. a sebo thrasher on a small gate



If you know the GateSlide, it doesn't matter how fast the recon can lock you. ;)
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-12-18 17:50:33 UTC
BKuCKy wrote:
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Diivil wrote:
Combat recons should at least show up in dscan if you are on the same grid with them. Majority of Eve use dscan tools and it would be extremely frustrating to not be able to copy a certain ship type from dscan list when you can clearly see it in your own overview.

Good point.

Lol no-scan recons is a death to WH carebears. Less WH carebears -> more price on T3 ships -> more $ players spend for PLEX -> PROFIT for CCP!

This is a pretty far-fetched chain of thought, here. There are several alternatives, not the least of which is "flying ships other than strategic cruisers."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#306 - 2014-12-18 17:52:23 UTC
oh so many things too address here.

-sig radius on all these ships are horrendously high.. looks at the supposed shield tanking caldari ones..
-why add full T2 resists? wasn't the HAC's main point resilience? .. and what are you doing here?...

-you state about developer trends yet the curse being khanid displays none of the normal characteristics associated with them.
something like this would be more characteristic of khanid

CURSE

Role Bonus:
Cannot be detected by directional scanners

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness
20% bonus to missile damage

Recon Ships Bonuses:
40% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer range
20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount

Slot layout: 5H, 5M(-1), 5L(+1); 0 turrets, 3(-1) launchers
Fittings: 900 PWG, 380 CPU appropriate increase for plates
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-187) / 2000 / 1075(+203)
Capacitor (amount / capacitor per second) : 1470(+220) / 4.46/s (+.83)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / align time): 205(+30) / .61(-.04) / 9.99s(-.66s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 130km / 281 / 10
Sensor strength: 28 Radar
Signature radius: 140

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Orinda Cinderheart
Pothouse Cartel
#307 - 2014-12-18 17:53:30 UTC
"We decided that the Pilgrim really needed Nos/Neut range, rather than strength, to give it the engagement flexibility that other Recons enjoy".


while I appreciate the idea of flexibility, is this not just making the amarr recon choice : armour or shield?

the pilgrim while in dire need of a fix works superbly well as a close range brawler that can pick its fights and get under the guns of an enemy, with no cap neutraliser bonus to amount it feels to me that this change is a step in the wrong direction, I'd be more inclined to give it a higher drone damage bonus to improve its solo viability. ofc I am biased, this was the first true pvp ship I trained for as a newbro so I have a soft spot for them.
Lonan O'Labhradha
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#308 - 2014-12-18 17:56:07 UTC
RTSAvalanche wrote:
Perhaps you see a ship on scan towards a small / medium / large plex - you warp there only to find that the ship you saw is sebo fit with a recon waiting there to denie the fight
eg. a sebo thrasher on a small gate


Aaah... I didn't think about that. T'would be a great way to bait someone into a plex.
Gaven Darklighter
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2014-12-18 17:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Darklighter
Hey Rise i think the changes are overall good and needed, would be nice to see the exact resists profiles.

However the Combat recon idea is a bad one imo, you are punishing somehow active player who sue scanner instead of punishing lazy ones who just check local so i would do this instead:

- Player in combat recons dont show in local but show in scanner as normally so people who are actually engaged with the game scanning arent punished
Lumpymayo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#310 - 2014-12-18 17:57:41 UTC
I have been waiting for over a year and a half for the Rorqual rebalance.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#311 - 2014-12-18 17:57:49 UTC
Stacy Lone wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

Have you considered the implications this will have for wspace?

I mean it might work for 0.0 where you can see that *something* is there through local, but in wspace, this will be absolutely OP and hilarious. No local, not even DScan anymore, how are you supposed to even get any intel?

The only way to detect such a ship is by having either eyes on all wholes (requires multitude of characters) and thus seeing it enter or by constant combat probing, which can be seen by the enemy.

I fear that this will make this ship far out of line in wspace, where intel is already harder to get than in 0.0.

inb4 spider-tanking curse roaming games for wh pve
Shiva Makoto
Blue Canary
Watch This
#312 - 2014-12-18 17:58:18 UTC
Nice to see something done with Recons.

While I like the No-Dscan-Bonus on Combat Recons I can't see me using the Arazu/Rapier anymore to hunt mission/plex runners in low sec.
With the Covert Ops Cloak people can see me activating the gate to the mission/plex for each gate I have to take and a lot of the time it's multiple gates so multiple chances for the target to see me on scan and react.

It's weird that the non-cloaky Recons are now better at hunting than the cloaky ones but I don't mind switching to the Lach/Huginn.
BKuCKy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#313 - 2014-12-18 18:00:21 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

I fear that this will make this ship far out of line in wspace, where intel is already harder to get than in 0.0.



Lol no-scan recons is a death to WH carebears. Less WH carebears -> more price on T3 ships -> more $ players spend for PLEX -> PROFIT for CCP!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#314 - 2014-12-18 18:01:15 UTC
both caldari recons have cap bonuses for ecm .. this is a waste of a slot. the falcon needs better damage projection and output, along with more drones.. also most recons don't need so much cpu anymore with the cloak changes made over time..

the range bonuses on webs and points are still too high and need a nerf along with the warfare links .. getting webs over 100km shouldn't be possible and web strength needs a nerf in general its far too easy too kill a ships speed out of scram range and in general.. and also tends too make target painters look very bad.

the issue of slots needs addressing is it ok for the force recons which according too role bonuses means half its highs are supposed too be used for non weapons and then have the -1 slot on top of that effectively 3 slots down on combats..

gallente are supposed too armour tank btw, .. they need more lows and grid as do the amarr ones..

huginn dps and projection is distinctly underwhelming, have you read the autocannon thread btw?

oh also on amarr why isn't the pilgrim laser based? ... amarr without lasers just aren't very amarrian.. also points at the laser thread, lasers need more work.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Eeio
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#315 - 2014-12-18 18:06:40 UTC
At least the camouflage skins will make more sense now Big smile
Athamai
Storms of Vengeance
#316 - 2014-12-18 18:06:49 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Pilgrim without its neut amount bonus? One word: Ugh.

If you absolutely must put a range bonus on it, make it a small one and keep the amount one. Don't neuter the thing it was good at. With this change it's just a weak Curse with a cloak. Which isn't all that big a ~thing~ with the whole "invisible to d-scan" bonus that you want to give to combat recons. With these changes there'd be even fewer reasons to fly a Pilgrim than there are right now.



No it's a perfect change. Without the amount bonus Pilgrim will still drain most of it's prior target's in about the same time bit more now. Range bonus is much better than amount bonus.



Pilgrim change: Highly negative.

It's a perfectly terrible change. How is -100% neut strength equal to "draining the target cap in about the same time"? The range bonus is crap, especially since you have to stay in point range anyway.
scarify ardonn
The First Kiss
#317 - 2014-12-18 18:06:58 UTC
this is really big bullshit: Give Combat Recons something to make them stand out as a unique and interesting set of ships
this is not even OP, this is stupid

Better rezist, why not
Reduce capacitor warping cost - hell yes

pilgrim without strenght bonus, I dont know. This ship is strong. If not many people flying any ship, it doestn mean its not good ship. Pilgrim is just hard to fly for many people
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#318 - 2014-12-18 18:08:36 UTC
Querns wrote:
It's actually pretty surprising to see the number of people who think that neut range is somehow worse than neut amount. Have any of you actually flown a pilgrim against, well, anything? Pilgrims needed the range very badly to avoid getting fridged by anything with even a remote ability to kite.


You are assuming that as a recon ship is has no allies in the fight... which is hilarious as Recons almost always need back up...

Who cares if it gets kited? I have friends to deal with that...
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#319 - 2014-12-18 18:10:32 UTC
Lonan O'Labhradha wrote:
Boltorano wrote:
You've basically made scout alts mandatory for "solo" complex runners.

Thanks so much. Ugh


See below. If you look in the Role Bonus section, the D-Scan-proof recons cannot fit covert cyno, so you can't be unaware of a in incoming hot drop on your accelerator...

Not showing up on D-Scan is already a property of any ship that can fit a Covert Cloak, like the T3 cruisers, which are already more dangerous than Recon ships and will continue to be so.

If you're in a plex, you're already protected from close warp ins, so if you don't want to use a warp gate scout, just make sure you stay out of point range from the beacon and fight aligned. SOP?



If you run DED sites, you can just check d-scan for incomming tackle. Right now you see the covert ops (recon / t3 / frigs) get decloacked on the gate. It's hard for them to suppries you.

And if you are 1 - 2 pockets into the site, you have quite a good warning time to position yourself. With the recon now getting more tank, cap and unable to see on the d-scan, it will be very hard to do somthing about that.

I mean I like pvp, I fly the DED exploration sites with PvP fitting, but what can I do when suddently two ships appear with no warning that can tackle and jam me from 93 km away? After they got point, the rest of the gang can come in.

I really reallly like DED sites pvp, but this will make it SUPER easy to get hard countered by a larger group. It doesn't add any particularly interestuing game play apart from rather idiotic ganks.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
BKuCKy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#320 - 2014-12-18 18:10:47 UTC
scarify ardonn wrote:
this is really big bullshit: Give Combat Recons something to make them stand out as a unique and interesting set of ships
this is not even OP, this is stupid

Better rezist, why not
Reduce capacitor warping cost - hell yes

pilgrim without strenght bonus, I dont know. This ship is strong. If not many people flying any ship, it doestn mean its not good ship. Pilgrim is just hard to fly for many people



You just don't understand

Lol no-scan recons is a death to WH carebears. Less WH carebears -> more price on T3 ships -> more $ players spend for PLEX -> PROFIT for CCP!

THAT"S ALL!