EVE General Discussion

Hi, I am in 0rigin, a corp in Black Legion. Please have CCP add more npc stations to Venal and tell The Mittani to grant us docking rights.

If my links are uncloaked, thats because we are fighting.

You say that you have to fit a frigate with 500m worth of stuff to keep up with a boosted frigate. The other person paid god knows much much ISK to get the booster and continues to pay either real money or ISK for PLEX to keep that booster. You are actually spending a lot less than that other person is.

Regardless, pay to win is bad, I suppose. Eve is pay to win though. I don't want to say deal with it but that's the way things are.

Starting out and trying to buy ones way to 'victory' almost always ends in tears. Once someone knows what they're doing, pay to win is real =p

Lol really. People lose boosters every single day. If you need an idea of what circumstances they get caught, check zkill and take note of how many 'unprobable' boosters get probed and ganked. Implants provide a similar overall increase to t3 boosts while being relatively low risk in low sec and since the expedition changes there is an array of relatively cheap deadspace and faction gear to use on your blingly pvp ships. The increase in performance from using high meta faction tackle is cheaper than using a booster toon, as are many of the c and b-type tanking modules, which often have the added benefit of being easier to fit. Remote repair modules are a bargain, costing only a few million for low end small reppers, and offer tremendous benefits.

Anything that makes your ship better in PVP benefits the gang you play with. If you have a faction web and scram, or can tank easier, or have a deadspace MWD and can burn for longer toward an opponent, your whole gang benefits. We know you don't like boosts because you don't think they're 'fair'. That's fine, but you don't have to lie to make your case.

It's not balanced because factoring the number of accounts into game balance is simply absurd. Does this really need to be explained?

Folks who don't like ogb want fast paced tactical pvp with player skills being the decicive factor. When making the split second decision of wether or not to take a fight you can't even check for boosters and even if you would you could never be sure that that claymore at station is associated with that small gang outside novice. That is what makes it fundamentally different from logis and ecm. Obg dumbs down eves tactical aspect in small gang and especially in solo pvp to a point where the pilot with active links is most likely to win not only because his t1 frig gets risk free officer gear and high grade implants but because unlike cloaked logis or ecm links leave you not time to react When you get webbed at 18km it's too late.

You can defend that mechanic all you want but at teh end of the day it's making solo and small gang pvp a huge pita for individual players who can't afford links or who simply don't like to carry a link ship around to provide them with invisible super powers at any given time (It doesn't only feel super lame ot win because of links it also destroys the feel of bing ones own spaceship)

In other words: links punish players who want tactical pvp with lots of action, roam freely and arn't so much about winning but about fighting. It may sound weird to some but that's exactly the kind of thing new players may like . To a certain degree lowsec supports this playstyle which is why it's the healthiest part of eve atm. Think about that when you defend this terrible meachanic which enables you to stomp other players and look great because your seconf account isn't on the km. In the long run "winning" may get a bitter aftertaste when you don't find anyone to fight.

I do all those fights that you speak of, but links allow me to fight outnumberd most of the time. These mythical 1v1 fights you seem to have in your head just don't really exist these days in eve. 9/10 that solo frig is not alone, or other people show up.

Being able to take on multiple opponents and actually have a chance to win, rather than just insta die is way way more fun and exhilarating than some condor vs condor fight, as tbh that just comes down to who has the most sp anyway 90% of the time.

Idk maybe its because back in the days when I started this game (2007) watching vids of people like garmon, wildcat & BP being outnumberd and winning inspired me to actually get out there and pew pew, with the power creep and general OPness of a fair few ships in eve these days its pretty much impossible to do that play style without links, and its that type of play that keeps a lot of the vets like me actually sub'd to this game.

The use of alts is perfectly fine but within the framework of principles that define the sandbox. See below. Leave the solo/small gang guys some space to find tatctical means against overwhelming force. No?




I really don't understand how the proponents of ogb can hold on to the notion that its opponents want eve to be "fair" regardless of how many times it has been stated that this is not the case. At all. The argument was that Ogb is an anomaly in an otherwise perfectly unfair sandbox. it's an anomaly in at least two regards: It doesn't leave you time to react unlike even cloaked logis or falcons and it fundamentally negates risk vs reward. The end result is dumbed down pay to win pvp, the fundamental division of the player base in these with links and these without and a lot of less action. That's it from me. I tried to explain the problem with ogb from the perspective of a player which is relatively new to pvp but some folks just seem determined not to listen.

I can understand your perspective dont get me wrong, I just disagree. As someone who spent the time and isk to get a link alt its not the "win" button you're making it out to be.

As far as solo / small gang guys go, links are our greatest weapon against the blob, they allow us to amplify our abilities to make up for numbers. As i pointed out removing OGB will give the blob yet another advantage over the small gang solo guys.

If OGB is to be removed then i would move to remove links all together.

It's interesting how you argue with the sandbox when ogb is against the very spirit of the sandbox. Think about it: A sandbox means relative freedom of action within a given framework Framework means that all players have to use the same tools laying around and can't rely on tools which are off limits. Ogb is a unique tool unlike any other which becomes available due to "off limit" out of sandbox action (paying for a second account) and only to a certain part of the player base. It kind of creates a box in the sandbox. Do you know hat i mean?

Regarding the other points you made: Don't get me wrong but there seems to be a certain mindest that prevents people from seeing where the criticism of ogb comes from. It is NOT about winning or not winning, It is about the tactical quality of combat and the number of fights happening. While ogb doesn't make you fully automatically win or lose it massively decreases the margin for error for the solo guy and at the same time increases it for the gang he fights. Simply because 18km webs and snake speed across the bord will get you killed in a kiting ship when the pilots you're fighting are only half way competent. The combination of faction web + loki links on the others hand just means instadeath. In that scenario links in fact do automatically win the fights for you. Therefore "dumbing down eve pvp" because links severely limit or fully negate the tactical means (mostly kiting/range ontrol tactics) of solo/small gang pilots against linked gangs and/or linked faction fitted "solo" pilots!

For me it's not so much the ìncreased tanking but the speed on top of point range on top of web range on top of scram range. Your targets become massively boosted in the critical areas that allow you to operate against them to a point where an engagement 1vsX becomes almost futile. I had enough engagements to know this for a fact and i also know that this leads to a lot less fights happening since many of the massively disadvantaged players without links become increasingly distrustful and less willing to spontaniously take fights. Especially in FW main Systems. That's why to the very least it should be noticable that a target X is boosted if this forsaken mechanic must remain until code rework. because afterall that's what we are talking about since ccp seems to be aware of the problem.

But thats compleatly untrue, you can choose to train a second account and have OGD links yourself, or an ecm alt or anothr dps alt or a probing alt to probe the OGB char and kill them, its part of the sandbox. Bringing your inability to fund a 2nd account either via rl money or plex is your issue and should not be part of the argument for or against OGB.



Sorry but now you just sound like your crying because you cant kyte all the things in your ships that abuse the OP nature of scorch.