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What about Off Grid Boosting?

First post
Author
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#21 - 2014-12-03 17:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
Charlie Firpol wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
you would have the same issue with on grid booster, it will still be 2v1 or 3v1 or 4v1 and you will still die. Only now that guy boosting could add his own dps to the fight and you die faster.

Off grid booster is not that hard to counter but yes you need a buddie. thus making it 2v2.


Offgrid Boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the Garmur kites forever

Ongrid boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the booster gets roflstomped

Offgrid-Booster have been a HUGE pita for every lowsec pvper that doesn´t have one. They´ve divided the playingfield in lowsec into 2 groups and they´re really REALLY bad for the amount of fights (and fun) you can find there.

I still believe that the effects of the different ways to boost your ships attributes are way out of shape.

- offgrid booster have the lowest risk but a huge effect
- drugs are way too expensive for their comparatively small effect (and a further risk of bad effects)

- implants are kinda fine, the good ones are really expensive, the cheap ones dont do that much



if you have a fleet already then you should have scouted the area and had an idea that there is prolly a booster. if you are blobing a guy with a booster then you have one of your fleet drop probes and basicly make the booster decide to either run, fight, or cloak up. if the guy is watching his booster out run your scout while the rest of you go for the Garmur then there is a high probability that the gam will mess up, or the booster will mess up, Scout catches booster, fleet disengages and warps to scout, nukes booster, then kill gam.

Seriously not that ******* difficult.

Node* and Im a god damn industrialist who sucks at pvp and even I figured this out. Use the tools you have available, check local, d-scan before you engage. seriously you have a brain use it.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Jarod Garamonde
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#22 - 2014-12-03 17:56:06 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


Can't do that without a probing account. Which brings you back to the point where a second account shifts the odds to a point where you basically "need" one to compete in pvp. Can you see how this might discourage new players?

Gee, who'd have thought. Two accounts is better than one when you're facing someone with two accounts.


I'm not arguing about this. A second account should come with benefits. Understand me right: I want Eve to grow and prosper and that's exactly why core "physics" of eve need to stay intact for players with or without a second account! You need to risk what you throw into the ring and against a player with only one account this general rule doesn't apply for boosters. When the booster is parked at station even against groups of players with multiple accounts the risk of losing the booster is almost not existant -correct me if i'm wrong. Do you understand th point i'm trying to make?



Does a 4-star General or Admiral directly participate in a battle?
No. They observe and give orders to frontline commanders, and the battle is swayed by their influence.

A booster is an upper-echelon commander, and the FC is the junior commander in the middle of it all.
Be realistic here.

As I said before.... there is risk. You booster must be decloaked to provide bonuses. He/she is vulnerable to probing and attack. If you are spotted, you must cloak and/or jump out of system, and the boosts stop. Many times, that alt isn't being watched, during a battle, making that boosting ship all the more vulnerable.
The counters are already in place. People just want to be lazy and have everything done for them by the devs.
Teach a noob to scan, and probe down those booster ships. It's not that hard of a concept.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#23 - 2014-12-03 17:57:47 UTC
I fly solo most of the time and I don't really have a problem with it. If I'm worried about losing a ship or that someone has an OGB, I'll take my chances somewhere else. Be picky about your fights and where you stand your ground, and find some friends. You're in faction warfare which means you have tons of available bros at any given time (even I, in late night PST, can find someone to fly with if I want), fleet up and meet some new people. If you're flying for the killboard then you should either stop flying for the killboard or get an OGB for yourself.

And, sometimes, you just have to welp it.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#24 - 2014-12-03 18:00:40 UTC
This change you want will affect more then low or null pvp, it changes nothing in duels, ganks or wars in empires.
Than you have the incursion communities while having a booster ongrid is only the sacrifice of a little slower time, it can tank.
. but there is has, a commandship is vastly larger than a logi , so at the cost of a dos slot causing a bit slower time, the logi relies on ab and its small size to tank, a BC will not be able to do that and unless it can muster a more powerful tank it will find itself wiped off the field.

So while you think you maybe fixing boost on pvp in a free fire region, think of the free fire regions.

Unless you plan on banking in while fighting war targets that have the boost

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#25 - 2014-12-03 18:05:38 UTC
Off grid boosting, unfortunately, will be around for a while to come. It needs the dogma rewrite/Brain in a Box to be complete, before CCP can seriously think about redoing it. Ranged effects which are constant, would cause TQ to have a bit of a nervous breakdown.

(things like warp interdiction bubbles are 'easy' as they're not constant effects. Just 'is there something interdicting me in range, when I try to warp')

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#26 - 2014-12-03 18:12:28 UTC
With neutral boosters sitting on low sec gates and stations relying on sentries to defend them while they boost militia members its a broken mechanic. At a minimum, boosting should result in shared suspect status. Simple solution is to apply suspect status to all members of a fleet within which a member aggresses a non suspect or wt. Would result ofc in much tears from people who want to boost with impunity and no risk of loss. Couldnt care less about off grid boosting if the booster was actually vulnerable to attack in low sec. (and before anyone says it, having to bring a fleet of long range sniping bs's to alpha a booster off gates before they can escape is not a reasonable counter)

Daemun of Khanid

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-12-03 18:13:54 UTC
Agondray wrote:
This change you want will affect more then low or null pvp, it changes nothing in duels, ganks or wars in empires.
Than you have the incursion communities while having a booster ongrid is only the sacrifice of a little slower time, it can tank.
. but there is has, a commandship is vastly larger than a logi , so at the cost of a dos slot causing a bit slower time, the logi relies on ab and its small size to tank, a BC will not be able to do that and unless it can muster a more powerful tank it will find itself wiped off the field.

So while you think you maybe fixing boost on pvp in a free fire region, think of the free fire regions.

Unless you plan on banking in while fighting war targets that have the boost

If the incursion community is incapable of equaling the tank on a t1 resist profile battleship with a freaking VULTURE, then frankly you don't deserve to have boosts. Roll
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#28 - 2014-12-03 18:14:07 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


Can't do that without a probing account. Which brings you back to the point where a second account shifts the odds to a point where you basically "need" one to compete in pvp. Can you see how this might discourage new players?

Gee, who'd have thought. Two accounts is better than one when you're facing someone with two accounts.


I'm not arguing about this. A second account should come with benefits. Understand me right: I want Eve to grow and prosper and that's exactly why core "physics" of eve need to stay intact for players with or without a second account! You need to risk what you throw into the ring and against a player with only one account this general rule doesn't apply for boosters. When the booster is parked at station even against groups of players with multiple accounts the risk of losing the booster is almost not existant -correct me if i'm wrong. Do you understand th point i'm trying to make?

You do realize that this can be fixed a lot more easily than by disallowing OGB, right?
Arla Sarain
#29 - 2014-12-03 18:18:06 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:


lows full of ECCM and sensor backup arrays

Drop some damn combat scanner probes


Nothing wrong here.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#30 - 2014-12-03 18:21:41 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
With neutral boosters sitting on low sec gates and stations relying on sentries to defend them while they boost militia members its a broken mechanic. At a minimum, boosting should result in shared suspect status. Simple solution is to apply suspect status to all members of a fleet within which a member aggresses a non suspect or wt. Would result ofc in much tears from people who want to boost with impunity and no risk of loss. Couldnt care less about off grid boosting if the booster was actually vulnerable to attack in low sec. (and before anyone says it, having to bring a fleet of long range sniping bs's to alpha a booster off gates before they can escape is not a reasonable counter)



hes not. Again... no that hard to tank the guns and nuke him, or even get out of sentry range and snipe him so he docks. A docked booster is a finish booster. Tactics. use them. Split fleet up to deal with boosters. Still not that bloody hard.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#31 - 2014-12-03 18:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Unsuccessful At Everything
Arla Sarain wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:


lows full of ECCM and sensor backup arrays

Drop some damn combat scanner probes


Nothing wrong here.


Makes it harder to probe, Yes.

Impossible? No.

Just the probes on scan are enough to scare someone into cloaking or warping, which shuts off the boosts. You would also be very surprised about how many OGB alts forget to turn on them ECCMs in the heat of the moment...

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#32 - 2014-12-03 18:24:09 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
hes not. Again... no that hard to tank the guns and nuke him, or even get out of sentry range and snipe him so he docks. A docked booster is a finish booster. Tactics. use them. Split fleet up to deal with boosters. Still not that bloody hard.

Or just, you know, bring your own booster.

The argument boils down to "people with OGB are hard to beat solo." And so what? I don't see a problem with that. 2v1 is hard to beat solo regardless of whether one of them is a booster, or a combat ship.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-12-03 18:29:18 UTC
Just add a distance mechanic to it. The further away the less effective it is.

Ships using links should also be easier to track down and target.

You know, locking onto the signal between the ships being linked together.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-12-03 18:32:27 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
you would have the same issue with on grid booster, it will still be 2v1 or 3v1 or 4v1 and you will still die. Only now that guy boosting could add his own dps to the fight and you die faster.

Off grid booster is not that hard to counter but yes you need a buddie. thus making it 2v2.


Offgrid Boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the Garmur kites forever

Ongrid boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the booster gets roflstomped

Offgrid-Booster have been a HUGE pita for every lowsec pvper that doesn´t have one. They´ve divided the playingfield in lowsec into 2 groups and they´re really REALLY bad for the amount of fights (and fun) you can find there.

I still believe that the effects of the different ways to boost your ships attributes are way out of shape.

- offgrid booster have the lowest risk but a huge effect
- drugs are way too expensive for their comparatively small effect (and a further risk of bad effects)

- implants are kinda fine, the good ones are really expensive, the cheap ones dont do that much



if you have a fleet already then you should have scouted the area and had an idea that there is prolly a booster. if you are blobing a guy with a booster then you have one of your fleet drop probes and basicly make the booster decide to either run, fight, or cloak up. if the guy is watching his booster out run your scout while the rest of you go for the Garmur then there is a high probability that the gam will mess up, or the booster will mess up, Scout catches booster, fleet disengages and warps to scout, nukes booster, then kill gam.

Seriously not that ******* difficult.

Node* and Im a god damn industrialist who sucks at pvp and even I figured this out. Use the tools you have available, check local, d-scan before you engage. seriously you have a brain use it.


Offgrid booster in lowsec don´t sit in safespots, they sit on gates.

A frigate engaging an offgrid-booster at a gate will get 2shotted by the sentries.

...

Offgrid-booster are unkillable by the most common pvp-fleets and almost every solo-pvper you see in lowsec.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#35 - 2014-12-03 18:35:21 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
Charlie Firpol wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
you would have the same issue with on grid booster, it will still be 2v1 or 3v1 or 4v1 and you will still die. Only now that guy boosting could add his own dps to the fight and you die faster.

Off grid booster is not that hard to counter but yes you need a buddie. thus making it 2v2.


Offgrid Boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the Garmur kites forever

Ongrid boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the booster gets roflstomped

Offgrid-Booster have been a HUGE pita for every lowsec pvper that doesn´t have one. They´ve divided the playingfield in lowsec into 2 groups and they´re really REALLY bad for the amount of fights (and fun) you can find there.

I still believe that the effects of the different ways to boost your ships attributes are way out of shape.

- offgrid booster have the lowest risk but a huge effect
- drugs are way too expensive for their comparatively small effect (and a further risk of bad effects)

- implants are kinda fine, the good ones are really expensive, the cheap ones dont do that much



if you have a fleet already then you should have scouted the area and had an idea that there is prolly a booster. if you are blobing a guy with a booster then you have one of your fleet drop probes and basicly make the booster decide to either run, fight, or cloak up. if the guy is watching his booster out run your scout while the rest of you go for the Garmur then there is a high probability that the gam will mess up, or the booster will mess up, Scout catches booster, fleet disengages and warps to scout, nukes booster, then kill gam.

Seriously not that ******* difficult.

Node* and Im a god damn industrialist who sucks at pvp and even I figured this out. Use the tools you have available, check local, d-scan before you engage. seriously you have a brain use it.


Offgrid booster in lowsec don´t sit in safespots, they sit on gates.

A frigate engaging an offgrid-booster at a gate will get 2shotted by the sentries.

...

Offgrid-booster are unkillable by the most common pvp-fleets and almost every solo-pvper you see in lowsec.



Then don't engage with a frig? if you know where the booster is turn around and swap a ship to something that can.. you know, maybe kill it or get ti to run away. then you kill his gam friend. as I said tactics

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#36 - 2014-12-03 18:54:50 UTC
The arguments against off-grid still always boil down to the same thing.

Lazy people wanting the game made easier for them by nerfing the benefits of others.

There are a lot of ways to overcome OGBs that don't just involve crying to CCP to take care of it. Go take care of it yourself.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#37 - 2014-12-03 18:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
The people who complain about off-grid boosting don't understand where the problem truly lies. It's not a matter of your enemies getting this great advantage that you aren't getting, but the fact that you're fighting one against two, and complaining that the odds aren't even. If they force boosters on-grid, or removed them entirely, all that's going to happen is that those people are going to bring a logistics ship instead, or simply engage you with two combat ships, and you'll have the same exact problem that you're complaining about right now.

But as I've mentioned in previous threads like this one throughout the years, making boosting a grid-only affair is actually a bad thing. For example, look at my post here. Actually, I'll go ahead and paste it into this reply:

I've said this before, many times, and I'll say it again: off-grid boosting is an equalizing factor for battles with numerical disparities.

If two forces of different size are fighting each other, and the boosting can be done off-grid, then the forces are proportionally as efficient as if there was no boosting at all, assuming no significant differences in boosting skills.

If two forces of different size are fighting each other, and the boosting can only be done on-grid, then the larger force gets a significant advantage over the smaller force, because:

1. the larger force is more able to defend its boosting ships due to being able to proportionally field more logistics
2. the larger force is more able to attack the smaller force's boosting ships because its superior DPS overpowers them quicker
3. the larger force, by its very nature, is more able to field backup boosting ships to immediately replace the ones lost due to enemy action

These three factors combined would make smaller forces objectively worse off when fighting larger ones, and that is on top of having a numerical disadvantage, than they are today.

So, if you advocate on-grid boosting, you're basically saying "I like to blob my enemies, and it would be nice if CCP made it so that I could blob my enemies more efficiently. Please, CCP, change this mechanic so that I am able to use my organization's superior numbers to an even greater advantage over smaller parties. Creating such a disincentive to small-scale pvp would really help me further my own goals at the expense of the game as a whole."

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-12-03 18:58:50 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
Charlie Firpol wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
you would have the same issue with on grid booster, it will still be 2v1 or 3v1 or 4v1 and you will still die. Only now that guy boosting could add his own dps to the fight and you die faster.

Off grid booster is not that hard to counter but yes you need a buddie. thus making it 2v2.


Offgrid Boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the Garmur kites forever

Ongrid boosted Garmur vs your usual lowsec frigate fleet: the booster gets roflstomped

Offgrid-Booster have been a HUGE pita for every lowsec pvper that doesn´t have one. They´ve divided the playingfield in lowsec into 2 groups and they´re really REALLY bad for the amount of fights (and fun) you can find there.

I still believe that the effects of the different ways to boost your ships attributes are way out of shape.

- offgrid booster have the lowest risk but a huge effect
- drugs are way too expensive for their comparatively small effect (and a further risk of bad effects)

- implants are kinda fine, the good ones are really expensive, the cheap ones dont do that much



if you have a fleet already then you should have scouted the area and had an idea that there is prolly a booster. if you are blobing a guy with a booster then you have one of your fleet drop probes and basicly make the booster decide to either run, fight, or cloak up. if the guy is watching his booster out run your scout while the rest of you go for the Garmur then there is a high probability that the gam will mess up, or the booster will mess up, Scout catches booster, fleet disengages and warps to scout, nukes booster, then kill gam.

Seriously not that ******* difficult.

Node* and Im a god damn industrialist who sucks at pvp and even I figured this out. Use the tools you have available, check local, d-scan before you engage. seriously you have a brain use it.


Offgrid booster in lowsec don´t sit in safespots, they sit on gates.

A frigate engaging an offgrid-booster at a gate will get 2shotted by the sentries.

...

Offgrid-booster are unkillable by the most common pvp-fleets and almost every solo-pvper you see in lowsec.



Then don't engage with a frig? if you know where the booster is turn around and swap a ship to something that can.. you know, maybe kill it or get ti to run away. then you kill his gam friend. as I said tactics




That is exactly what all the talk about easy "tactics" to counter ogb comes down to. Not spontaniously engaging.

I think it speaks for itself that all the easy counters to off grid boosters require a very slow and risk averse approach to pvp. In other words: If you return to your base or do whatever to counter that booster the fight most likely won't happen. This just means less action. Disregarding our supposedly different playstyles and approaches to eve I ask you just one question: Do you think this is good for the game and considering that do you think off grid boosting is a good mechanic?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#39 - 2014-12-03 19:04:46 UTC
OGB needs to die. Looking forward to the dogma rewrite. I'm under no illusion that this will be soon, though.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#40 - 2014-12-03 19:07:10 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
That is exactly what all the talk about easy "tactics" to counter ogb comes down to. Not spontaniously engaging.

I think it speaks for itself that all the easy counters to off grid boosters require a very slow and risk averse approach to pvp. In other words: If you return to your base or do whatever to counter that booster the fight most likely won't happen. This just means less action. Disregarding our supposedly different playstyles and approaches to eve I ask you just one question: Do you think this is good for the game and considering that do you think off grid boosting is a good mechanic?

Ask yourself this question: what is the difference between an off-grid booster that you don't know is present, and an off-grid logistics that you don't know is present?

If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted