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What about Off Grid Boosting?

First post
Author
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#441 - 2014-12-07 11:07:55 UTC
Varathius wrote:
To double check, you can send fleet invitations to see if suspected players are indeed in a fleet or not.

Good tip!

I'm my own NPC alt.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#442 - 2014-12-07 11:26:19 UTC
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#443 - 2014-12-07 12:22:02 UTC
Boosts are one of the reasons the dojo idea was introduced at all. I don't know or care how they do it, but CCP need to find a way to implement something that allows for non-boosted non-logi 1v1 between two agreeing players. If it has to happen on SiSi that's fine, 3rd party sites cna make a SiSi killboard to support it
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#444 - 2014-12-07 14:17:36 UTC
Varathius wrote:
To double check, you can send fleet invitations to see if suspected players are indeed in a fleet or not.


Man that's gotta be one of the smartest ideas I've ever seen and never thought of myself in 2 yrs of playing, lol. Props to you. +1


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#445 - 2014-12-08 08:38:42 UTC
OK so it turns out I can fly a command ship already, just not up on all the modules.

Looking into the modules it appears that on two levels there is boosting. There is the "2 percent per level" stuff that I'm like "2 percent? Really? Big freaking deal" but when you get up in the link module use then it's going big.

So I can see what the deal is - someone all up on 5s in a command ship can be a serious boost.


As for it being "off grid" well... I can see why people complain about that. That's a lot of boost for something that does not have to be at risk. Imagine I could have a module that gives me serious tanking capability but I don't have to fit it, just leave it in a POS.


But we all know what's going to happen if a command ship must be on grid. It's going to get swarmed by bombers and suicide AF waves (if that's what's so important about it) and we'll be wishing this was a battleship hull instead of a battle cruiser.

So what I think is that if they kill OGB, they are going to have to change a lot of other things around it. It's more than just a "make it required to be on grid" and that could make them obsolete at the same time. The CS becomes part of "logistics chain".

Whatever the case, something has to be done about this.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#446 - 2014-12-08 09:45:05 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
As for it being "off grid" well... I can see why people complain about that. That's a lot of boost for something that does not have to be at risk. Imagine I could have a module that gives me serious tanking capability but I don't have to fit it, just leave it in a POS.

"No risk" isn't entirely correct. However, there should be more risk. You see, the people asking for it to be grid-only view the debate as a zero-sum game, and don't consider the possibility that a middle-of-the-road solution might leave the game in a much better state for everyone.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
So what I think is that if they kill OGB, they are going to have to change a lot of other things around it. It's more than just a "make it required to be on grid" and that could make them obsolete at the same time. The CS becomes part of "logistics chain".

In order to preserve the balance of power in uneven fights, they'd need to give the ship virtually unlimited EHP, somehow, or people are just going to blob up into fleets of sizes that are guaranteed to take out the booster in a split second, because taking out this type of force multiplier is an extremely valuable move. I've talked about this a lot in this thread, but very few have listened. Those who did listen downright reversed their stance on onGB after taking in this argument.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#447 - 2014-12-08 13:33:28 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
In order to preserve the balance of power in uneven fights, they'd need to give the ship virtually unlimited EHP, somehow, or people are just going to blob up into fleets of sizes that are guaranteed to take out the booster in a split second, because taking out this type of force multiplier is an extremely valuable move. I've talked about this a lot in this thread, but very few have listened. Those who did listen downright reversed their stance on onGB after taking in this argument.

So finally my 2 years old question on why "OGB nerf" favors larger gangs is answered in a way. Thank you.

Although I still doubt that most people who bring "OGB is a counter to blob" argument mean this. Kinda awkward to think that force multiplier favors small group more than large one which can very well have small group's equivalent in it.

That bugs me a lot.
Jarod Garamonde
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#448 - 2014-12-08 16:01:05 UTC
This thread is still going?

I thought we determined a while back that OGB isn't going anywhere any time soon, and the majority of people complaining about it are just mad because they're not creative enough to overcome a slight advantage for the other guy....

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#449 - 2014-12-08 16:33:27 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
In order to preserve the balance of power in uneven fights, they'd need to give the ship virtually unlimited EHP, somehow, or people are just going to blob up into fleets of sizes that are guaranteed to take out the booster in a split second, because taking out this type of force multiplier is an extremely valuable move. I've talked about this a lot in this thread, but very few have listened. Those who did listen downright reversed their stance on onGB after taking in this argument.

So finally my 2 years old question on why "OGB nerf" favors larger gangs is answered in a way. Thank you.

Although I still doubt that most people who bring "OGB is a counter to blob" argument mean this. Kinda awkward to think that force multiplier favors small group more than large one which can very well have small group's equivalent in it.

That bugs me a lot.


OGB is a counter to smaller blob who don't run link for whatever reasons. The fun part is many of those groups not running link would if it was not a game of hide and seek off grid. I mean can you think of a fleet position more boring that sitting in a safe mashing D-SCAN while your fleet mate are having some action? You effectively need an alt and I'm guessing quite a lot of people just can't be arsed to have a second account on a game.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#450 - 2014-12-08 16:46:37 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
As for it being "off grid" well... I can see why people complain about that. That's a lot of boost for something that does not have to be at risk. Imagine I could have a module that gives me serious tanking capability but I don't have to fit it, just leave it in a POS.

"No risk" isn't entirely correct. However, there should be more risk. You see, the people asking for it to be grid-only view the debate as a zero-sum game, and don't consider the possibility that a middle-of-the-road solution might leave the game in a much better state for everyone.

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
So what I think is that if they kill OGB, they are going to have to change a lot of other things around it. It's more than just a "make it required to be on grid" and that could make them obsolete at the same time. The CS becomes part of "logistics chain".

In order to preserve the balance of power in uneven fights, they'd need to give the ship virtually unlimited EHP, somehow, or people are just going to blob up into fleets of sizes that are guaranteed to take out the booster in a split second, because taking out this type of force multiplier is an extremely valuable move. I've talked about this a lot in this thread, but very few have listened. Those who did listen downright reversed their stance on onGB after taking in this argument.




So perhaps a kind of "siege mode" for command ships or some other means of "let's not get blapped in 2 seconds". Probably. It would have made more sense then for capital ships being command ships or some model of capital ship having that role for fleets.

Though one can imagine if the hull size divisions had their own command ship model and the flexibility that could afford. Mind-boggling amount of content change and addition though.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Solj RichPopolous
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#451 - 2014-12-08 18:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Solj RichPopolous
Like i tell everyone. You dont die because of boosts. You die because you use that abomination MWD. IF you were going to die you were going to die whether they had boosts or not is how i feel. I personally use boosts myself because people love to run away in this game when they realize they don't stand a chance in the fight. That boosted point really helps to snag the would be runners.

Also Im actually hoping for CCP to fix this so I can finally put a fork in this game and call myself done.
Solj RichPopolous
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#452 - 2014-12-08 18:08:41 UTC
Double
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#453 - 2014-12-08 19:09:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Frostys Virpio wrote:
OGB is a counter to smaller blob who don't run link for whatever reasons. The fun part is many of those groups not running link would if it was not a game of hide and seek off grid. I mean can you think of a fleet position more boring that sitting in a safe mashing D-SCAN while your fleet mate are having some action? You effectively need an alt and I'm guessing quite a lot of people just can't be arsed to have a second account on a game.

See, this is a problem that pops up over and over in this thread. People keep trying to compare apples to oranges, and don't keep the constants equal in a specific consideration.

No, boosting (in either form) isn't a counter to someone not running boosts. It becomes a whole different consideration when you go down this route. I mean what's next? We can say that a person flying a titan to act as backup for his friend is a counter to another person flying alone, therefore nerf titans? Keep the constants equal.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#454 - 2014-12-08 23:45:35 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Sir Constantin wrote:
A new player would say: "F***k this game, I wont pay for another account so I can be somewhat efficient."
]

This is never a good reason to make a game change. If one thing doesn't drive a player like that from EVE, something else will. Not everyone is compatible with EVE.


So what you're saying is, we should just be real upfront about this being a pay to win game? Are you seriously going to argue that a second account should be a requirement? It already practically is with scouts but at least those dont require any training time.

Do you people want new players at all? Or just an ever dwindling pool of bittervet incest?

Also to the guy saying OGB is essential to small gangs, you realize 90% of the time the opposing doom blob is going to have at least one but often multiple boosters of their own? Every corp in fw has a booster in their home system at the very least. Galmil fleets that I fly with don't leave home without at least one. It's a requirement at this point.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2014-12-08 23:52:25 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Nerfing OGB is a buff to blobs, and a nerf to smaller gangs.

That's all I care about.

OGB needs to stay, or the blob is just going to get stronger than it already is.

Having more numbers shouldn't also mean that your ships are simply better too.


You're assuming the blob won't just have stacking boosters?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#456 - 2014-12-08 23:53:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Are you seriously going to argue that a second account should be a requirement?

No one has to argue for or against this; the premise of alt usage is practically built into the game by CCP.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
Nerfing OGB is a buff to blobs, and a nerf to smaller gangs.

That's all I care about.

OGB needs to stay, or the blob is just going to get stronger than it already is.

Having more numbers shouldn't also mean that your ships are simply better too.


You're assuming the blob won't just have stacking boosters?

Putting boosters on grid will mean that the blob will get to keep theirs, but the smaller group won't. At least when boosters are off-grid, both sides need to put in roughly the same effort to de-boost the other.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2014-12-09 00:44:12 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Sir Constantin wrote:
A new player would say: "F***k this game, I wont pay for another account so I can be somewhat efficient."
]

This is never a good reason to make a game change. If one thing doesn't drive a player like that from EVE, something else will. Not everyone is compatible with EVE.


So what you're saying is, we should just be real upfront about this being a pay to win game? Are you seriously going to argue that a second account should be a requirement? It already practically is with scouts but at least those dont require any training time.

Do you people want new players at all? Or just an ever dwindling pool of bittervet incest?

Also to the guy saying OGB is essential to small gangs, you realize 90% of the time the opposing doom blob is going to have at least one but often multiple boosters of their own? Every corp in fw has a booster in their home system at the very least. Galmil fleets that I fly with don't leave home without at least one. It's a requirement at this point.


Eve has always been upfront about the need/advantage/benefit or alt accounts. So much so that when I open the launcher the second advertisement in the bottom right pane is for a sale on setting up alt accounts. So much so that, that advertisement has been there for almost 3 months.

If you enjoy your faction warfare but decide you want to branch out in another direction in the game - you should consider making that next step. Your timing is in cycle with a recent drop in plex prices so if you are active in game and finishing between 5-6 smalls a day you should be able to pay for your new account with in game currency after you have finished your cheap 3 month subscription.

In that case you would not be paying to win - but playing to win.

In regards to OGB; the point Destiny and others have been making is simply that if I land on grid with my 100 ships (110 ships with boosts factored in) and you have 50 (55 with boosts factored in) the first ship I will target will be your booster. I will melt your booster before/if you are able to melt mine. At that point the numbers change to 100 ships (110 ships with boosts factored in) against 49 ships. While 110 vs 55 is probably going to finish in an obvious fashion it is better than 110 vs 49. If the fleet was 30 vs 22 the possibly even fight could easily turn into a whitewash. Because of the obvious benefit of killing boosters first when holding superior numbers, that will be the default FC action until emergant play starts to emerge.

What emergent play can I see arriving?

Small gangs consisting of 4 Claymores 10 Gamurs 10 Scimitars. Maybe all the claymores will be boosters maybe there will be one serious boost with others providing DPS.

Small gate camps consisting of 10+ claymores + 3-4 Gamurs.

All tengu fleets - some tackle fit, one boost fit, some rail dps fit.

Delayed Warp Boosters. Yah we got ourselves a pretty even fight! Oh my god a tengu has just landed 195km behind them. I hope your aligned cause that tacklers point just grew by 30%.
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#458 - 2014-12-09 00:47:46 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Are you seriously going to argue that a second account should be a requirement?

No one has to argue for or against this; the premise of alt usage is practically built into the game by CCP.

Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
Nerfing OGB is a buff to blobs, and a nerf to smaller gangs.

That's all I care about.

OGB needs to stay, or the blob is just going to get stronger than it already is.

Having more numbers shouldn't also mean that your ships are simply better too.


You're assuming the blob won't just have stacking boosters?

Putting boosters on grid will mean that the blob will get to keep theirs, but the smaller group won't. At least when boosters are off-grid, both sides need to put in roughly the same effort to de-boost the other.


In addition it might mean when a bigger group move in next door and are looking for constant fights, the smaller groups boosters will get sick of dying first in every fight and either; stop flying boosters (small guy loses), stop logging in (we all lose), leave small group to look for bigger group (yay more blobs).
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#459 - 2014-12-09 01:05:01 UTC
Yes, a second account for a boosting alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf OGB.

A second account for a logi alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf logi.

A second account for a Falcon alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf Falcon.

A second account for a DPS alt helps you in a fight.
Nerf DPS.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#460 - 2014-12-09 01:25:54 UTC
Who would have thought that 2 toons is better than one.