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What about Off Grid Boosting?

First post
Author
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#41 - 2014-12-03 19:14:29 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
That is exactly what all the talk about easy "tactics" to counter ogb comes down to. Not spontaniously engaging.

I think it speaks for itself that all the easy counters to off grid boosters require a very slow and risk averse approach to pvp. In other words: If you return to your base or do whatever to counter that booster the fight most likely won't happen. This just means less action. Disregarding our supposedly different playstyles and approaches to eve I ask you just one question: Do you think this is good for the game and considering that do you think off grid boosting is a good mechanic?

Ask yourself this question: what is the difference between an off-grid booster that you don't know is present, and an off-grid logistics that you don't know is present?

If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

The logistics have to come on grid to have any effect.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#42 - 2014-12-03 19:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Zappity wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:


If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

The logistics have to come on grid to have any effect.

*POW* right in the kisser!
Big smile
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#43 - 2014-12-03 19:17:55 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
o/

Since this is my first forum post and to make you better understand where my point is coming from i'll write a few words about myself. I'm relatively new to pvp and I have been mainly engaged in faction warfare. So far I had a great time doing solo pvp and currently I'm learning how to pilot manually and this means -as any pvp related learning process in eve- losing a lot of ships.

I don't mind losing a lot of ships, really.... What is annoying though is losing them not mainly because of personal failure but because of a mechanic which greatly shift the odds against newer individual players in favor of players who are willing and able to pay for a second account . I personally use speed implants only to stand a chance against boosted targets and i have to risk them all the time against the odds of dc and smartbombing battleships. If I wanted to have that extra web and point range that come with the fleet booster I had to fly slicers at the cost of a pirate cruiser!

Boosted pilots on the other hand get all these bonuses at the price of minimal Risk . While pilots without a second account have to throw all their assets into the ring every time they engage in combat boosted pilots just park their booster at station and dock up as soon as any danger occurs. It seems to me that off grid boosting therfore simply breaks the most important meta mechanics of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. This is exactly why fighting boosted pilots can feel like playing a game of rigged cards.

I don't know if i'm right about everything I stated here and I'm glad to hear different opinions on this but there's one thing i know for sure: This mechanic is not good to acquire new players. In fact it's terrible in that regard. It massively shifts the odds against individual entrepreneurs in favor of "older" more established players and groups of players due to "out-of-game" physics aka paying for a second account with rl money.

I suspect that's why many boosting pilots i talked to stated they don't like using links but they feel forced to use them to compete. Therefore my question: Are there any plans to change this mechanic? Making boosts (rightfully!) show up on kb's would imo be a step in the right direction. What else could be done? Or am i seeing things the wrong way? Please discuss :-)



All the arguments against your post come down to if you want to solo PVP you need an alt to scan down the booster. So basically no to solo PVP because two ships controlled by one player is not solo PVP.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#44 - 2014-12-03 19:27:06 UTC
Off grid boosters are great for solo pvp, if you have the scanning skills.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#45 - 2014-12-03 19:32:38 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Off grid boosters are great for solo pvp, if you have the scanning skills.

Right. I've been toying with the idea for a while and that's done it. My next adventure!

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#46 - 2014-12-03 19:35:28 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

Gee, who'd have thought. Two accounts is better than one when you're facing someone with two accounts.


So... pay 2 win?

Profit favors the prepared

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#47 - 2014-12-03 19:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:


If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

The logistics have to come on grid to have any effect.

*POW* right in the kisser!
Big smile

Don't try to cherry-pick your arguments like that. We're talking about a 1v1+1 scenario here. If you're already engaged with an enemy who's tackling you, there's nothing you can do about that logistics cruiser that comes on grid 70km away from you. I know this for a fact, because I've been doing wars for the past forever, and that's how every such engagement played out. Whether it's a booster, or a logistics, or even another dps ship, the average utility during the fight will lean in favor of the party with twice as many characters in play.

And don't tell me something like "well, you can just break free of the combat ship and engage the logistics," because if that was the case, then there'd be nothing to complain about in the first place; you could de-aggro from any fight, booster or otherwise. Keep all other factors constant in this equation.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#48 - 2014-12-03 19:40:05 UTC
I would prefer off-grid boosting go bye bye. At the very least they should severely limit its range to a few thousand clicks at most. That would make scanning them down pretty easy.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-12-03 19:40:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
The people who complain about off-grid boosting don't understand where the problem truly lies. It's not a matter of your enemies getting this great advantage that you aren't getting, but the fact that you're fighting one against two, and complaining that the odds aren't even. If they force boosters on-grid, or removed them entirely, all that's going to happen is that those people are going to bring a logistics ship instead, or simply engage you with two combat ships, and you'll have the same exact problem that you're complaining about right now.

But as I've mentioned in previous threads like this one throughout the years, making boosting a grid-only affair is actually a bad thing. For example, look at my post here. Actually, I'll go ahead and paste it into this reply:

I've said this before, many times, and I'll say it again: off-grid boosting is an equalizing factor for battles with numerical disparities.

If two forces of different size are fighting each other, and the boosting can be done off-grid, then the forces are proportionally as efficient as if there was no boosting at all, assuming no significant differences in boosting skills.

If two forces of different size are fighting each other, and the boosting can only be done on-grid, then the larger force gets a significant advantage over the smaller force, because:

1. the larger force is more able to defend its boosting ships due to being able to proportionally field more logistics
2. the larger force is more able to attack the smaller force's boosting ships because its superior DPS overpowers them quicker
3. the larger force, by its very nature, is more able to field backup boosting ships to immediately replace the ones lost due to enemy action

These three factors combined would make smaller forces objectively worse off when fighting larger ones, and that is on top of having a numerical disadvantage, than they are today.

So, if you advocate on-grid boosting, you're basically saying "I like to blob my enemies, and it would be nice if CCP made it so that I could blob my enemies more efficiently. Please, CCP, change this mechanic so that I am able to use my organization's superior numbers to an even greater advantage over smaller parties. Creating such a disincentive to small-scale pvp would really help me further my own goals at the expense of the game as a whole."





I prefer my idea, the further away the ships the less effective the links. This way a solo player with links off-grid will still see some benefit with little risk to the boosting ship where as players who have links on grid will see more of a benefit but now they risk losing that ship during the fight.


Your whole post sounds like a solo player who wants the links for an advantage with no risk.

There seem to be a few mechanics around that minimize the risk to the point that there is no risk. (These need to be addressed)
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2014-12-03 19:42:20 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
o/

Since this is my first forum post and to make you better understand where my point is coming from i'll write a few words about myself. I'm relatively new to pvp and I have been mainly engaged in faction warfare. So far I had a great time doing solo pvp and currently I'm learning how to pilot manually and this means -as any pvp related learning process in eve- losing a lot of ships.

I don't mind losing a lot of ships, really.... What is annoying though is losing them not mainly because of personal failure but because of a mechanic which greatly shift the odds against newer individual players in favor of players who are willing and able to pay for a second account . I personally use speed implants only to stand a chance against boosted targets and i have to risk them all the time against the odds of dc and smartbombing battleships. If I wanted to have that extra web and point range that come with the fleet booster I had to fly slicers at the cost of a pirate cruiser!

Boosted pilots on the other hand get all these bonuses at the price of minimal Risk . While pilots without a second account have to throw all their assets into the ring every time they engage in combat boosted pilots just park their booster at station and dock up as soon as any danger occurs. It seems to me that off grid boosting therfore simply breaks the most important meta mechanics of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. This is exactly why fighting boosted pilots can feel like playing a game of rigged cards.

I don't know if i'm right about everything I stated here and I'm glad to hear different opinions on this but there's one thing i know for sure: This mechanic is not good to acquire new players. In fact it's terrible in that regard. It massively shifts the odds against individual entrepreneurs in favor of "older" more established players and groups of players due to "out-of-game" physics aka paying for a second account with rl money.

I suspect that's why many boosting pilots i talked to stated they don't like using links but they feel forced to use them to compete. Therefore my question: Are there any plans to change this mechanic? Making boosts (rightfully!) show up on kb's would imo be a step in the right direction. What else could be done? Or am i seeing things the wrong way? Please discuss :-)



All the arguments against your post come down to if you want to solo PVP you need an alt to scan down the booster. So basically no to solo PVP because two ships controlled by one player is not solo PVP.



Yep, that seems to be true. It's interesting though how people who seem to be really passionate about the game fail to see that the approach to pvp they advertize to counter off grid boosting just makes the game slower and more static without adding any real tactical depth. i really don't understand why they are so defensive about an obviously terrible mechanic which doesn't exactly make the game more attractive for new players...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#51 - 2014-12-03 19:47:11 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
I prefer my idea, the further away the ships the less effective the links. This way a solo player with links off-grid will still see some benefit with little risk to the boosting ship where as players who have links on grid will see more of a benefit but now they risk losing that ship during the fight.


Your whole post sounds like a solo player who wants the links for an advantage with no risk.

There seem to be a few mechanics around that minimize the risk to the point that there is no risk. (These need to be addressed)

You're not being very objective when you say something like "no risk." There is always risk, and in fact, pretty significant risk. If you can find it and shoot it, there's risk.

With regard to your idea: while it's noble, the only place where it's safer to boost in a safespot rather than at a gate/station/POS is high-sec, meaning that boosters are pretty easy to locate. But in high-sec, whether the booster is on-grid or not is hardly relevant.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#52 - 2014-12-03 20:00:16 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:




That is exactly what all the talk about easy "tactics" to counter ogb comes down to. Not spontaniously engaging.

I think it speaks for itself that all the easy counters to off grid boosters require a very slow and risk averse approach to pvp. In other words: If you return to your base or do whatever to counter that booster the fight most likely won't happen. This just means less action. Disregarding our supposedly different playstyles and approaches to eve I ask you just one question: Do you think this is good for the game and considering that do you think off grid boosting is a good mechanic?



See here is the problem. You are singling out a target, without knowing what you are getting into, without doing some simple scouting which you should be doing when you enter system

Because even IF the boost is on grid, you will still die. Because you picked a fight with a target and when his buddies show up your still dead. As you would change the target to attack the command ship or even an orca that boosting in your frigs, his buddy is going to pick you off one by one.

Or lets go solo. You find a ship and chose to attack it alone, but then his booster alt decloaks 250k away and starts boosting his main.. you still die.

Nothing changes in your scenario, its still 2v1 and you are STILL not scouting correctly.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#53 - 2014-12-03 20:00:38 UTC
On-grid boosting will make the "buffing class" similar to those found other games I guess, in that they are right in the thick of things along with everyone else. Or at least more so than currently. I wish they hadn't added any sort of "buffing class" to begin with though, they are always problematic in my mind. They usually lead to new PvE content being designed to require them, and PvP likewise starts to assume that they will be present. I think EVE has somehow managed to not fall into this trap quite as much as other games though.

I don't like healers either.
Josef Djugashvilis
#54 - 2014-12-03 20:07:49 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
This thread should attract some reasonable and courteous debate.



You must be new here ...Smile

This is not a signature.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#55 - 2014-12-03 20:10:43 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:


If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

The logistics have to come on grid to have any effect.

*POW* right in the kisser!
Big smile

Don't try to cherry-pick your arguments like that. We're talking about a 1v1+1 scenario here. If you're already engaged with an enemy who's tackling you, there's nothing you can do about that logistics cruiser that comes on grid 70km away from you. I know this for a fact, because I've been doing wars for the past forever, and that's how every such engagement played out. Whether it's a booster, or a logistics, or even another dps ship, the average utility during the fight will lean in favor of the party with twice as many characters in play.

And don't tell me something like "well, you can just break free of the combat ship and engage the logistics," because if that was the case, then there'd be nothing to complain about in the first place; you could de-aggro from any fight, booster or otherwise. Keep all other factors constant in this equation.

Not so. On-grid logistics doesn't buff your kiting opponent's speed and agility to the point that you cannot slingshot or escape.

It is just a bad mechanic that encourages multiple accounts for "solo" play. It should never have been introduced until the code was ready for it to be brought on grid. That is clearly what CCP intends to do and I can't wait.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#56 - 2014-12-03 20:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
DaReaper wrote:
See here is the problem. You are singling out a target, without knowing what you are getting into, without doing some simple scouting which you should be doing when you enter system

Because even IF the boost is on grid, you will still die. Because you picked a fight with a target and when his buddies show up your still dead. As you would change the target to attack the command ship or even an orca that boosting in your frigs, his buddy is going to pick you off one by one.

Or lets go solo. You find a ship and chose to attack it alone, but then his booster alt decloaks 250k away and starts boosting his main.. you still die.

Nothing changes in your scenario, its still 2v1 and you are STILL not scouting correctly.

Exactly, and this is what these people don't understand. They think that having the booster be on-grid will suddenly make the fight fair, but it won't. They refuse to understand this now, but if their demands get implemented, they'll quickly come to terms with reality, and will ask for boosting to be removed entirely. And frankly, at that point that will be the only sensible option, because the small vs. large engagement dynamics I've outlined in a previous post will be thrown all out of whack. On-grid boosting makes a smaller force disproportionately weaker than a larger force, unlike if the boosts are allowed to remain off-grid.

So either we should retain off-grid boosting, or not have boosting at all. I'm fine with either.

Zappity wrote:
Not so. On-grid logistics doesn't buff your kiting opponent's speed and agility to the point that you cannot slingshot or escape.

There's no "cannot" to be found here. Boosting shifts margins, but it doesn't make anything impossible. And once again, you're failing to understand that we're talking about a 1vs1+1 situation. As such, if the booster was replaced by another combat ship, your escape would be even more difficult, because a second tackle is stronger than the skirmish bonuses a booster can provide. Similarly, a single logistics cruiser provides more extra tank than a booster, even for battleships with active tanking bonuses. I use the Hyperion a lot, and have all the math.

Once again, removing off-grid boosting is not the equivalent of removing a second character from a 1vs1+1 scenario.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#57 - 2014-12-03 20:13:59 UTC
Eve is not fair, you can get totally run over by an goonswarm blob or pretty much anyone and it's not fair, right?. one player have more skills Points than you? and thats not fair, but at the same time it is. i dont have an OFF GRID BOOSTER, but eve is not fair. I dont mind that People use it, and of course it's and Clear advantage. People would not do it if it was not. LolOopsArrow
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#58 - 2014-12-03 20:16:39 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:


If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

The logistics have to come on grid to have any effect.

*POW* right in the kisser!
Big smile

Don't try to cherry-pick your arguments like that.

I can and will until fozzie stops me.

Big smile
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-12-03 20:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Shi
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
I prefer my idea, the further away the ships the less effective the links. This way a solo player with links off-grid will still see some benefit with little risk to the boosting ship where as players who have links on grid will see more of a benefit but now they risk losing that ship during the fight.


Your whole post sounds like a solo player who wants the links for an advantage with no risk.

There seem to be a few mechanics around that minimize the risk to the point that there is no risk. (These need to be addressed)

You're not being very objective when you say something like "no risk." There is always risk, and in fact, pretty significant risk. If you can find it and shoot it, there's risk.

With regard to your idea: while it's noble, the only place where it's safer to boost in a safespot rather than at a gate/station/POS is high-sec, meaning that boosters are pretty easy to locate. But in high-sec, whether the booster is on-grid or not is hardly relevant.



There is a reason why links are kept off grid.....because there is no risk.
There is a reason why links aren't on grid....because there is a risk.

Nothing noble about my idea. Should work the same way that damage works in game.

The further away from target, less damage.
The closer you are to the target, more damage.


This is just one of the many elephants in Eve space that need to be looked at at some point. I am sure its on a list somewhere.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#60 - 2014-12-03 20:22:37 UTC
Destiny, what do you think about adding links to killmails?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.