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What about Off Grid Boosting?

First post
Author
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-12-03 20:23:27 UTC
PLEASE CCP REMOVE OFF GRID BOOSTERS, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE MINING BOOSTS IN BELTS INSTEAD OF HIDING IN A POS SHIELD.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2014-12-03 20:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
See here is the problem. You are singling out a target, without knowing what you are getting into, without doing some simple scouting which you should be doing when you enter system

Because even IF the boost is on grid, you will still die. Because you picked a fight with a target and when his buddies show up your still dead. As you would change the target to attack the command ship or even an orca that boosting in your frigs, his buddy is going to pick you off one by one.

Or lets go solo. You find a ship and chose to attack it alone, but then his booster alt decloaks 250k away and starts boosting his main.. you still die.

Nothing changes in your scenario, its still 2v1 and you are STILL not scouting correctly.

Exactly, and this is what these people don't understand. They think that having the booster be on-grid will suddenly make the fight fair, but it won't. They refuse to understand this now, but if their demands get implemented, they'll quickly come to terms with reality, and will ask for boosting to be removed entirely. And frankly, at that point that will be the only sensible option, because the small vs. large engagement dynamics I've outlined in a previous post will be thrown all out of whack. On-grid boosting makes a smaller force disproportionately weaker than a larger force, unlike if the boosts are allowed to remain off-grid.

So either we should retain off-grid boosting, or not have boosting at all. I'm fine with either.

Zappity wrote:
Not so. On-grid logistics doesn't buff your kiting opponent's speed and agility to the point that you cannot slingshot or escape.

There's no "cannot" to be found here. Boosting shifts margins, but it doesn't make anything impossible. And once again, you're failing to understand that we're talking about a 1vs1+1 situation. As such, if the booster was replaced by another combat ship, your escape would be even more difficult, because a second tackle is stronger than the skirmish bonuses a booster can provide. Similarly, a single logistics cruiser provides more extra tank than a booster, even for battleships with active tanking bonuses. I use the Hyperion a lot, and have all the math.

Once again, removing off-grid boosting is not the equivalent of removing a second character from a 1vs1+1 scenario.



I'm sorry but you post just shows a complete lack of undertanding of how solo pvp works. That actually accounts for many of the proponents of ogb. Would you consider that this is a topic you don't completely survey since your approach to pvp is just so different?
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#63 - 2014-12-03 20:49:36 UTC
Varesk wrote:
PLEASE CCP REMOVE OFF GRID BOOSTERS, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE MINING BOOSTS IN BELTS INSTEAD OF HIDING IN A POS SHIELD.


┌─────────────────────────────────────┐
│ Doc Fury's Center for the Treatment of CapsLock abuse...
│ for players who wanna learn to abuse other stuff good too.
└─────────────────────────────────────┘

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-12-03 20:56:46 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


Can't do that without a probing account. Which brings you back to the point where a second account shifts the odds to a point where you basically "need" one to compete in pvp. Can you see how this might discourage new players?


Or with the scanning module and the mobile depot in my cargohold, but hey...who needs adaptability? I only fly 1 fit ever after all...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-12-03 21:06:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


Can't do that without a probing account. Which brings you back to the point where a second account shifts the odds to a point where you basically "need" one to compete in pvp. Can you see how this might discourage new players?


Or with the scanning module and the mobile depot in my cargohold, but hey...who needs adaptability? I only fly 1 fit ever after all...



so before you enter a plex or engage a wt at the gate you jump to your safespot drop depot, wait timer, refit, scan for booster, realize that said booster is a command ship sitting at station/realize you can't scan down the booster with an unbonused hull, refit for combat anyway and finally warp back to not fight the target because you don't know if it's associated with said booster? seriously, enlighten me.

Wouldn't it MAYBE be better to just let a terrible mechanic go for the sake of more pilots willing to engage spontaniously and more action for everyone?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#66 - 2014-12-03 21:08:35 UTC
Yeah, OGB should at least give suspect flags in lowsec so you can more easily engage on a station or gate. And with ECCM don't you pretty much need a bonused scanning ship?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2014-12-03 21:09:44 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Yeah, OGB should at least give suspect flags in lowsec so you can more easily engage on a station or gate. And with ECCM don't you pretty much need a bonused scanning ship?


Yes you do. I know because i tried.
Mercatto Monza
Doomheim
#68 - 2014-12-03 21:42:40 UTC
Frankly it shocks me that nobody has mentioned the issue from the booster point of view....


You are all complaining about or justifying offgrid boosters while totally missing the point.
Gameplay wise the booster role is so boring that nobody ever plays a boost ship with his main.
The entire role of booster is relegated to alts because it is fundamentally broken.

wether offgrid boosting is fair or not should come second to actually making it so that people would like to fly boosting ships. which of course needs an overhaul that boils down to starting over from scratch really.


Please make flying command ships , etc fun and interesting ! if the game offers interesting gameplay for boost ships then it will also be far less painfull to remove offgrid boosts since people might field them anyway if there actually was some sort of fun involved for those hulls.


Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#69 - 2014-12-03 21:45:42 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Yeah, OGB should at least give suspect flags in lowsec so you can more easily engage on a station or gate. And with ECCM don't you pretty much need a bonused scanning ship?


Yes you do. I know because i tried.


Tackle Helios.

Youre welcome.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#70 - 2014-12-03 22:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Yeah, OGB should at least give suspect flags in lowsec so you can more easily engage on a station or gate. And with ECCM don't you pretty much need a bonused scanning ship?


Yes you do. I know because i tried.


Tackle Helios.

Youre welcome.


Go ahead and tackle a nuetral booster on a gate using a helios, then post your loss mail from the turrets here so I can laugh at you.
Like I said earlier, I dont think off grid boosting is the issue. As long as you are allowed to find and shoot the booster I dont see the problem. Its boosters exploiting mechanics (or lack there of) using lowsec station and gate defenses to protect them in FW zones. Boosting should count as aggression and grant suspect status. As for the guy who said "snipe them" eye roll. Bringing a fleet of bs's to kill a single booster to take boosts away from 1-2 frigates in an FW zone is just idiotic and not a viable response... Just like I said the first time. Please dont respond without activating at least 3 braincells.

Daemun of Khanid

Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#71 - 2014-12-03 22:04:18 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
I would prefer off-grid boosting go bye bye. At the very least they should severely limit its range to a few thousand clicks at most. That would make scanning them down pretty easy.



It's klicks, slang for (K)ilometer
Jarod Garamonde
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#72 - 2014-12-03 22:21:22 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Yeah, OGB should at least give suspect flags in lowsec so you can more easily engage on a station or gate. And with ECCM don't you pretty much need a bonused scanning ship?


Yes you do. I know because i tried.


Tackle Helios.

Youre welcome.


Go ahead and tackle a nuetral booster on a gate using a helios, then post your loss mail from the turrets here so I can laugh at you.
Like I said earlier, I dont think off grid boosting is the issue. As long as you are allowed to find and shoot the booster I dont see the problem. Its boosters exploiting mechanics (or lack there of) using lowsec station and gate defenses to protect them in FW zones. Boosting should count as aggression and grant suspect status. As for the guy who said "snipe them" eye roll. Bringing a fleet of bs's to kill a single booster to take boosts away from 1-2 frigates in an FW zone is just idiotic and not a viable response... Just like I said the first time. Please dont respond without activating at least 3 braincells.



✓ Getting ridiculously angry about people using legit game mechanics, as intended
✓ Hurling vile insults at everyone who disagrees
✓ Easily resorts to name-calling
✓ Improper punctuation
✓ Horrible spelling
✓ Inconsistent capitalization
✓ Accusing people of hacking or sploiting because they're playing smart
✓ Demanding developer action because someone is better than you
✓ Sensationalism
✓ Accusing debate opponents of being stupid
✓ Overall obliviousness

I see what your problem is, mate. You're just a neckbeard....

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Zahhadune
Celestial Precision
#73 - 2014-12-03 22:54:10 UTC
It isn't just the solo pvp'er that suffers. Small gangs of people who may not be good "yet" can be solo'd by 1 or 2 ships with OGB. Instead of flagging suspect just add a little effect icon to the targeted ship that denotes the ship is currently getting OGB. That gives the opponent the chance to decide fight or run.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-12-03 23:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Charlie Firpol
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
That is exactly what all the talk about easy "tactics" to counter ogb comes down to. Not spontaniously engaging.

I think it speaks for itself that all the easy counters to off grid boosters require a very slow and risk averse approach to pvp. In other words: If you return to your base or do whatever to counter that booster the fight most likely won't happen. This just means less action. Disregarding our supposedly different playstyles and approaches to eve I ask you just one question: Do you think this is good for the game and considering that do you think off grid boosting is a good mechanic?

Ask yourself this question: what is the difference between an off-grid booster that you don't know is present, and an off-grid logistics that you don't know is present?

If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.


Ongrid logistics can be shot at by anyone while offgrid boosters hide under the protection of sentryguns and aggression timers (they dont have them but anyone shooting them has them, thus enabling them to safe themselfes by docking/jumping)

I don´t want fair fights. I am also able to see fairly quickly if somebody is using boosters or not. These are not the reasons why I want boosting ships to be on field.

I just want to be able to engage them with my fleet. Getting them out of POSes was nice, now they need to get away from stargates and stations.

(I am strickly speaking about lowsec, factional warfare pvp here. 9 out of ten times we are in frigates or destroyers)

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#75 - 2014-12-03 23:38:51 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Yeah, OGB should at least give suspect flags in lowsec so you can more easily engage on a station or gate. And with ECCM don't you pretty much need a bonused scanning ship?


Yes you do. I know because i tried.


Tackle Helios.

Youre welcome.


Go ahead and tackle a nuetral booster on a gate using a helios, then post your loss mail from the turrets here so I can laugh at you.
Like I said earlier, I dont think off grid boosting is the issue. As long as you are allowed to find and shoot the booster I dont see the problem. Its boosters exploiting mechanics (or lack there of) using lowsec station and gate defenses to protect them in FW zones. Boosting should count as aggression and grant suspect status. As for the guy who said "snipe them" eye roll. Bringing a fleet of bs's to kill a single booster to take boosts away from 1-2 frigates in an FW zone is just idiotic and not a viable response... Just like I said the first time. Please dont respond without activating at least 3 braincells.



✓ Getting ridiculously angry about people using legit game mechanics, as intended
✓ Hurling vile insults at everyone who disagrees
✓ Easily resorts to name-calling
✓ Improper punctuation
✓ Horrible spelling
✓ Inconsistent capitalization
✓ Accusing people of hacking or sploiting because they're playing smart
✓ Demanding developer action because someone is better than you
✓ Sensationalism
✓ Accusing debate opponents of being stupid
✓ Overall obliviousness

I see what your problem is, mate. You're just a neckbeard....


If you're going to make accusations at least make some effort to ensure they are remotely accurate or defendable as opposed to a canned response with no validity. I would gladly concede to potential spelling or punctuation errors. I'm not an english major and I'm typing on a cell phone. The other 9 points are as thoughtless and idiotic as telling a frigate gang to snipe a t3 cruiser off of a stargate.

Daemun of Khanid

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-12-03 23:45:36 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
The other 9 points are as thoughtless and idiotic as telling a frigate gang to snipe a t3 cruiser off of a stargate.


HOTDROPO'CLOCK!

Seriously, this will solve your problem 100% of the time. He'll either jump out of system, or die. For the record though...

We've used assault frigate gangs to kills stuff bigger and tougher than boosters on stargates. It's all about coordinated staggered attacks. But sniping is for whimps, get in there and brawl him like a real man. With a hull tank, like what I have on my Enyo, which I still haven't lost with almost 2 bil worth of kills now.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2014-12-03 23:48:32 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:

If you're going to make accusations at least make some effort to ensure they are remotely accurate or defendable as opposed to a canned response with no validity. I would gladly concede to potential spelling or punctuation errors. I'm not an english major and I'm typing on a cell phone. The other 9 points are as thoughtless and idiotic as telling a frigate gang to snipe a t3 cruiser off of a stargate.



Hmmmm no, he was pretty much on the money.

Personally I found off grid boosting boring so I used to annoy my FCs by appearing on grid in my claymore or vulture and bapping stuff for fun. I used to run a booster and logi alts in same fleet so when my booster landed on grid my logi would just perma rep. The fun bit was having to stay aligned in case a frigate tried to yellow box as scramming equalled death. But I'd warp out to closest celestial while making a bm as close to grid as I dared and then warp back to spot 20000-30000 off grid so I'd be able to warp in quickly for another round.

Alas CCP introduced T3s and now command ship boosting is a lost art.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#78 - 2014-12-03 23:57:11 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
The other 9 points are as thoughtless and idiotic as telling a frigate gang to snipe a t3 cruiser off of a stargate.


HOTDROPO'CLOCK!

Seriously, this will solve your problem 100% of the time. He'll either jump out of system, or die. For the record though...

We've used assault frigate gangs to kills stuff bigger and tougher than boosters on stargates. It's all about coordinated staggered attacks. But sniping is for whimps, get in there and brawl him like a real man. With a hull tank, like what I have on my Enyo, which I still haven't lost with almost 2 bil worth of kills now.


I'd love to "get in there and brawl them" the problem is "brawling" the sentry guns with a handfull of frigs once you aggress a neutral on a low sec gate/station. It's not game breaking by any means, just annoying when you have to deal with uber solo frigs with loki links flown by neutral alts and not being able to do anything about the link ship. If boosting a ship in combat resulted in kill rights or suspect flags, the link alts would at least be persuaded to move to safe spots where they can be scanned down and attacked. Off grid links are fair game tactics, having your link ship protected by concord is abuse of mechanics. (imo)

Daemun of Khanid

Serene Repose
#79 - 2014-12-03 23:57:26 UTC
I saw an interesting website that gave instructions on how to distort the shape and size of a system, so that the grid itself becomes a farce - a product of Goonwaffle.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-12-04 00:11:43 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
...just annoying when you have to deal with uber solo frigs with loki links...


Get your own links and not be solo? Wow, that was hard. This game sucks, let's all go play Elite instead.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104