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Anti-Cloak that doesn't break the game
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Mag's
Azn Empire
#61 - 2011-12-15 20:27:58 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You can still fit your ship to be very hard to probe. Only those fit with relevant implants are successful in probing down.
There is also the speed way of avoiding capture, this has been used to good effect many times.


But here he has to be at the keyboard. And pay attention to his surroundings
Not at all, depends on the set up and situation. The point is they still have the same effect and use local to achieve it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2011-12-15 20:28:46 UTC
Ingvar, if you were to add..
4. Remove all standing flags from local chat.
...you'd get another "like" :)
Mag's
Azn Empire
#63 - 2011-12-15 20:31:56 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Ingvar, if you were to add..
4. Remove all standing flags from local chat.
...you'd get another "like" :)
IIRC the reason they were added, was due to a large alliance using a method to produce much the same thing back in the day. I'm not sure how they could remove this, without the same method being used again. But then I'm no programmer, so.....

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#64 - 2011-12-15 20:32:46 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Ingvar, if you were to add..
4. Remove all standing flags from local chat.
...you'd get another "like" :)


That's not something I felt was related to the AFK cloaking non-issue, but I'd support that.

Pirates would freak out with joy... the parties would be worth seeing. Standings should mean nothing anyhow once you're outside of high sec, so really there's nothing lost for anyone.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-12-15 20:34:32 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
You can still fit your ship to be very hard to probe. Only those fit with relevant implants are successful in probing down.
There is also the speed way of avoiding capture, this has been used to good effect many times.


But here he has to be at the keyboard. And pay attention to his surroundings
Not at all, depends on the set up and situation. The point is they still have the same effect and use local to achieve it.


Again, now I am intrigued. How does the speed way involve not being by the computer. A bot?

And the night impossible to probe setup can still be probed by the right people. So if he don't pay attention he will most likely loose a ship. Or will the search take so long that he can sit in a system for days on end without fear?

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2011-12-15 20:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
Mag's wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
Ingvar, if you were to add..
4. Remove all standing flags from local chat.
...you'd get another "like" :)
IIRC the reason they were added, was due to a large alliance using a method to produce much the same thing back in the day. I'm not sure how they could remove this, without the same method being used again. But then I'm no programmer, so.....


Not familiar with that method...some form of bot/ recognition software? Bannable offence if caught? Certainly hope so. Would be curious if it was simply easier to add the flags than to create a system that would make whatever that Alliance used non-functioning.

Quote:
Again, now I am intrigued. How does the speed way involve not being by the computer. A bot?


With sufficient speed, travelling non-aligned, by the time a prober gets a lock and warps to you you will be off-grid. Doesn't always work though, killed a dram trying this who wasn't quite fast enough.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#67 - 2011-12-15 20:48:52 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
Ingvar, if you were to add..
4. Remove all standing flags from local chat.
...you'd get another "like" :)
IIRC the reason they were added, was due to a large alliance using a method to produce much the same thing back in the day. I'm not sure how they could remove this, without the same method being used again. But then I'm no programmer, so.....


Not familiar with that method...some form of bot/ recognition software? Bannable offence if caught? Certainly hope so. Would be curious if it was simply easier to add the flags than to create a system that would make whatever that Alliance used non-functioning.
It was a method of changing the picture of enemies with something else, so as to show good from bad. It didn't change the client per se but had the desired effect in-game.

Torin Corax wrote:
Quote:
Again, now I am intrigued. How does the speed way involve not being by the computer. A bot?


With sufficient speed, travelling non-aligned, by the time a prober gets a lock and warps to you you will be off-grid. Doesn't always work though, killed a dram trying this who wasn't quite fast enough.
Basically.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2011-12-15 21:08:36 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Tippia wrote:
There is. The problem is that the solution solves the actual problem, rather than the made-up one people like to wave around as a diversion while trying to sneak in a nerf to something that isn't a problem at all…

Yes, your solution is turning nullsec into wormhole space.

Actually, you know what? **** it, I'd like to see just what would happen to nullsec if that was done. Let's do this.


This "experiment" has already been tried. Local got nuked in one of the previous patches, long ago, and the 0.0 community was less than amused or happy with the change.

On the issue of AFK cloaking, it's not an issue. Using Local as an intel too is the issue. I really like the middle ground idea of removing cloaked ships from local and removing local from cloaked ships. Then again, I live in a WH so local seems odd to me these days.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2011-12-15 21:18:02 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
With sufficient speed, travelling non-aligned, by the time a prober gets a lock and warps to you you will be off-grid. Doesn't always work though, killed a dram trying this who wasn't quite fast enough.


Yes. I got the basic of how it works. or what you need to do. but it also involves you being "at the keyboard" and playing the game. It is fun chasing players like this simply because you can. You might loose or you might win. The gist of it is that it involves both parties. I think it could be, note could be, fun to have the same sort of interaction against a cloaker. It would be a lot more dificult to find the damn rat. But I think it would be more fun than going out in a bait ship and hope he bites.

Some players might find that sort of activity fun aswell, I'm no judge. But I havent heard anyone saying it yet though.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-12-15 21:19:57 UTC
Zachis wrote:
This "experiment" has already been tried. Local got nuked in one of the previous patches, long ago, and the 0.0 community was less than amused or happy with the change.

On the issue of AFK cloaking, it's not an issue. Using Local as an intel too is the issue. I really like the middle ground idea of removing cloaked ships from local and removing local from cloaked ships. Then again, I live in a WH so local seems odd to me these days.

The problem with this, though, is that it doesn't really change anything. The only thing it really changes is that people have even less time to notice the fact that someone has come into local, fired off a probe, cloaked up and scanned down all sanctums and havens, and are now warping around, looking for an easy kill. They don't really need local past the initial jump in, if at all.

But honestly, I keep seeing threads proclaiming how awesome the PVP would turn out in nullsec with small gangs engaging left right and centre, and it'd be hilarious to see what happened when those who were depending on local had moved out (or at least moved their moneymakers out into hisec). I have a few theories about what'll happen, but just this once I'm inclined to indulge them, just to see what actually happens over an extended period of time.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2011-12-15 21:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lord Zim wrote:
Sigh. I forgot to add "basically".
…and even if you had, it would still be just as much of a straw man. So still nope.
Quote:
The only thing it really changes is that people have even less time to notice the fact that someone has come into local, fired off a probe, cloaked up and scanned down all sanctums and havens, and are now warping around, looking for an easy kill.
In other words, it changes quiet a lot, and in very good ways. It completely removes AFK cloaking, for instance, and at the same time lets active cloakers do their job while allowing for counters to be set up.
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
With sufficient speed, travelling non-aligned, by the time a prober gets a lock and warps to you you will be off-grid. Doesn't always work though, killed a dram trying this who wasn't quite fast enough.
Yes. I got the basic of how it works. or what you need to do. but it also involves you being "at the keyboard" and playing the game.
No, it's just as AFK-able as cloaking — once you've set it up (a double click and a key press, not much different from the single key-press of AFK cloaking), no further input is needed and you're now having the same effect as an AFK cloaker without using a cloak…

…which leads back to the obvious conclusion that cloaking has nothing to do with the problem people claim they want to solve.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#72 - 2011-12-15 21:58:28 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
I have a question for you. You and others againts cloak changes say that you have no way of getting to the players that dock up when a cloakie enters the system. If they had a way to deal with the cloakie do you think they would stay docked? Would not that then be a win-win for you? You want to prevent players from docking up and you want to pvp against others. By letting them hunt you you are getting what you want. is it not?


There are ways to make your ship very safe from being hunted: POS up, Dock up, or cloak. Currently, with the all-powerful intel tool of local, it is TRIVIALLY EASY to get safe before any incoming pilot can find a target. Travelers just want to shoot stuff... and if the locals bothered to come out an play, afk cloaking wouldn't happen. The dirty truth is, most nullsec alliances are overwhelmingly populated with carebears that just want to milk the land, and are terribly afraid of losing any ship. As such, its common to see locked down systems, where neutrals can't dock, their POS's are removed, and gate travel is hindered by bubble farms. The only way to introduce danger to the locals in these systems is with afk cloakers. The call for cloak ship detection is not coming from PvPers, but from the carebears that want to FURTHER lock down their system. It's about removing all potential threats from a system, thereby creating completely safe nullsec systems.

I think an cloaker-hunter role would be an interesting development to the game, but a nullsec system should NEVER be COMPLETELY safe, and until the all-powerful intel tool of local gets changed, an anti-cloaker mechanic is game-breakingly BAD!!!!
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-12-15 22:18:18 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
But honestly, I keep seeing threads proclaiming how awesome the PVP would turn out in nullsec with small gangs engaging left right and centre, and it'd be hilarious to see what happened when those who were depending on local had moved out (or at least moved their moneymakers out into hisec). I have a few theories about what'll happen, but just this once I'm inclined to indulge them, just to see what actually happens over an extended period of time.


If I recall correctly, and it's been a while since the patch that nuked Local, what happened was everyone docked or sat in their POS shields until Local came back. Sure, D-Scan still worked, but you had no idea how many ships were friendly, neutrals, or an enemy fleet. Somewhere the old forums must have the threads it caused...
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2011-12-15 22:37:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Lucien Visteen wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
With sufficient speed, travelling non-aligned, by the time a prober gets a lock and warps to you you will be off-grid. Doesn't always work though, killed a dram trying this who wasn't quite fast enough.
Yes. I got the basic of how it works. or what you need to do. but it also involves you being "at the keyboard" and playing the game.
No, it's just as AFK-able as cloaking — once you've set it up (a double click and a key press, not much different from the single key-press of AFK cloaking), no further input is needed and you're now having the same effect as an AFK cloaker without using a cloak…

…which leads back to the obvious conclusion that cloaking has nothing to do with the problem people claim they want to solve.


In all fairness, using the speed method is not quite as "safe" as cloaking. If you are not 100% certain that you are in the fastest ship available going AFK for any length of time is risky.
A good prober and a very fast tackler/ warp in provider, will ruin the day of a speed afk'er who doesn't occasionally check to see if he's being hunted.
If you are the fastest ship available however, then yes it is just as effective.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2011-12-15 22:42:34 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I think an cloaker-hunter role would be an interesting development to the game, but a nullsec system should NEVER be COMPLETELY safe, and until the all-powerful intel tool of local gets changed, an anti-cloaker mechanic is game-breakingly BAD!!!!


Atleast you are open to suggestions, thank you. And I agree, change one aspect of this gameplay without affecting the other is not a good option.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#76 - 2011-12-15 22:55:53 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
But honestly, I keep seeing threads proclaiming how awesome the PVP would turn out in nullsec with small gangs engaging left right and centre, and it'd be hilarious to see what happened when those who were depending on local had moved out (or at least moved their moneymakers out into hisec). I have a few theories about what'll happen, but just this once I'm inclined to indulge them, just to see what actually happens over an extended period of time.


There needs to be a balanced Intel tool. Balancing it to be fair fair to the hunters and hunted is pretty difficult; at the moment it's overwhelmingly in favor of the hunted. I think WH local is overwhelmingly in favor of the hunters, but the low traffic, sleeper AI, and high rewards make it worthwhile. Nullsec truly needs a middle ground between WH local and the instant all-knowing local we have now. I'd prefer a truly delayed local on the order of 30 seconds, but this has problems too.
Jade Mitch
A Problem with Authority
#77 - 2011-12-15 23:00:35 UTC
How do you even know when a cloaked ship is in system?

That's what needs to be fixed.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#78 - 2011-12-15 23:04:50 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Tippia wrote:

Lucien Visteen wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
With sufficient speed, travelling non-aligned, by the time a prober gets a lock and warps to you you will be off-grid. Doesn't always work though, killed a dram trying this who wasn't quite fast enough.
Yes. I got the basic of how it works. or what you need to do. but it also involves you being "at the keyboard" and playing the game.
No, it's just as AFK-able as cloaking — once you've set it up (a double click and a key press, not much different from the single key-press of AFK cloaking), no further input is needed and you're now having the same effect as an AFK cloaker without using a cloak…

…which leads back to the obvious conclusion that cloaking has nothing to do with the problem people claim they want to solve.


In all fairness, using the speed method is not quite as "safe" as cloaking. If you are not 100% certain that you are in the fastest ship available going AFK for any length of time is risky.
A good prober and a very fast tackler/ warp in provider, will ruin the day of a speed afk'er who doesn't occasionally check to see if he's being hunted.
If you are the fastest ship available however, then yes it is just as effective.


You can also snipe an AFK speedster...
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#79 - 2011-12-16 00:17:04 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Xorv wrote:
No your idea fails.

Even if your idea only effected afk cloakers it still fails

Why? Because AFK cloaking isn't a "problem"

Why isn't AFK cloaking a problem you may ask? Because it's the symptomatic imperfect response to the real problem, flawless 100% effortless Intel from Local Chat.

Forget the symptoms, cure the disease, remove Local Chat Intel!



I dont agree with this - While I am all for the removal of local in 0.0, I also think there should be ships/tools in place to scan down cloaked ships - adds more gameplay opportunity which is always a good thing.


Assuming Local Chat's Intel aspect was removed, I wouldn't be entirely against this if it was somehow possible not to ruin what cloaked ships are meant to be able to do by adding such an ability. There's a number issues with the ability to detect or scan down a cloaked ship that makes me think it is not possible.

Cloaks & stealth in general benefits in all games like this is to avoid superior forces and numbers and to be able to ambush surprise attack chosen targets. The cost of this is usually lack of tanky defense or being able to sustain oneself in a prolonged fight,.. It's the perfect tool for soloers and small groups, not just a scouting tool for larger groups.

Make it possible to detect cloaks (local or some new idea with the removal of Local) takes away the offensive advantage of cloaks to ambush. Give the ability to find and detect a cloaked ship you also take away it's advantage to avoid superior forces. It doesn't matter how high skills it takes or how much of a specialized ship, because regardless of the requirements large organized groups will have one (because of Alts so too will some solo players).

So if everyone can see me and organized groups can detect and find me, why would I or anyone else want to use a CovOps ship that comes pre-gimped over say a Combat Recon, HAC or most likely a Battlecruiser? Short answer being we wouldn't, and cloaked ships would be completely obsolete.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-12-16 00:20:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
There needs to be a balanced Intel tool. Balancing it to be fair fair to the hunters and hunted is pretty difficult; at the moment it's overwhelmingly in favor of the hunted. I think WH local is overwhelmingly in favor of the hunters, but the low traffic, sleeper AI, and high rewards make it worthwhile. Nullsec truly needs a middle ground between WH local and the instant all-knowing local we have now. I'd prefer a truly delayed local on the order of 30 seconds, but this has problems too.

30 seconds? Might as well just go all the way and remove local then, 30 seconds is more than enough to jump in, spawn a probe, scan down sanctums, fleetwarp your fleet to one of them and proceed ganking. Hell, if you're quick enough you can even pass through entire systems without being spotted at that rate.

Honestly, though, people who thinks intel is an infallible intel tool needs to remember the fact that there's almost always at least one guy in a system not paying attention to local or the intel channel for a few seconds, which sometimes ends up being enough.

I've strong predictions on what'll happen if local is turned off for any types of ships without a replacement system, and it's pretty opposite of what tons of the people who wants to exclude some or all ships/pilots. A lot of them probably just wants easier ganking of nullsec carebears, and some of them probably thinks no local will make nullsec an exciting PVP heaven. I think all it'll end up doing is driving even more carebears out of nullsec.

I'm becoming increasingly interested in seeing who's right.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat