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Anti-Cloak that doesn't break the game
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Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#81 - 2011-12-16 00:39:16 UTC
The idea that removing Local Intel will drive many from Null to Empire High Sec seems to miss that many for PvE purposes have already been driven there. Removing Local Chat Intel from Null and perhaps Low Sec is just one necessary change of this game. Another is the removal of all the better ISK sources out of High Sec or making it much more dangerous through other means, Pre P. alliance nerf wardecs and/or involuntary Faction War.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-12-16 00:56:04 UTC
Many, yes. Lots of them because anoms were nerfed and incursions had been added, but there's still a few that's left. I see a lot of what I can only assume is renter alliances in and around ncdot/raidendot's space. I'm not convinced they'd stick around after a few weeks or months of no local, and all the extra work that entailed. It'll be interesting to see who's right.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#83 - 2011-12-16 01:00:38 UTC
Bot detects this thingy in overview and automagically change direction. Useless.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#84 - 2011-12-16 05:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Lord Zim wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
There needs to be a balanced Intel tool. Balancing it to be fair fair to the hunters and hunted is pretty difficult; at the moment it's overwhelmingly in favor of the hunted. I think WH local is overwhelmingly in favor of the hunters, but the low traffic, sleeper AI, and high rewards make it worthwhile. Nullsec truly needs a middle ground between WH local and the instant all-knowing local we have now. I'd prefer a truly delayed local on the order of 30 seconds, but this has problems too.

30 seconds? Might as well just go all the way and remove local then, 30 seconds is more than enough to jump in, spawn a probe, scan down sanctums, fleetwarp your fleet to one of them and proceed ganking. Hell, if you're quick enough you can even pass through entire systems without being spotted at that rate.


First off, session change timer is currently 30 seconds, so you'll always show up in local for a brief moment. Its one of the aspects of local that I think really needs reconsidering... Currently the only way to hide a force is by titan/BO dropping... something that is both broken and yet an awesome mechanic, would it be a bad thing if a fleet of 5 frigates could quickly traverse a system and never show up in local? I could see potential problems with fleets of cruisers doing this, but I think it could bring a new aspect to hornet gangs if they could.

Next, I understand that 30 seconds seems like a long time... but it is NOT. I'm willing to wager isk that within 30 seconds you can't consistently land on grid with me while I'm "ratting" in a belt or anomaly (assuming a reasonably sized & populated system)!! Omg, you mean ratting in the only sanctum in system means you're likely to be the first warp-to target? Its not hard to adapt to this... 1.) dont rat at zero on a belt or anomaly... 2.) Align while ratting... 3.) Have a real intel network/channel, rather than local... This is game changing, but its not the omg-****-a-carebear free-for-all that completely removing local would create. Currently, Nullsec is currently MUCH, MUCH safer than hisec, and that's just wrong!!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2011-12-16 07:34:47 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Currently, Nullsec is currently MUCH, MUCH safer than hisec

No, it isn't.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mag's
Azn Empire
#86 - 2011-12-16 17:57:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Currently, Nullsec is currently MUCH, MUCH safer than hisec

No, it isn't.
Oh but it is, for one simple reason. Local works far better in null sec, than in high sec.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2011-12-16 20:19:47 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Currently, Nullsec is currently MUCH, MUCH safer than hisec

No, it isn't.
Oh but it is, for one simple reason. Local works far better in null sec, than in high sec.

No, it isn't, for one simple reason. In nullsec, even blues might shoot you.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lucjan
Deutzer Freiheit
#88 - 2011-12-16 20:22:16 UTC
NO.
How about an AFK timer instead. Tells you how long the character has been without any input.
Spork Witch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2011-12-16 20:32:55 UTC
Down-vote.

There's really two very simple, highly effective solutions. One doesn't break anything, and the other makes cloaking even spiffier, so either works, really.

Solution 1) Cloaked ships don't show in local. Period. No other changes. Now the carebears can't see that there's an AFK cloaker, so they have nothing to cry about. If he's there, and they undock, they're buggered. If he's AFK, and they undock, they're fine. Life goes on.

Solution 2) Bring mates. If you're afraid of that AFK cloaker, bring mates. You are playing an MMO. This MMO is not WoW. If the cloaker is there, and you have mates, you might kill him before he calls in a hotdrop, or he might not have enough mates of his own to threaten your group (game working as intended.) If he's AFK, you go about your business.

They fixed the only broken thing about AFK cloaking in the last patch, that whole business about plexes. There's nothing else that needs doing. The only thing that lets an AFK cloaker work are the people that aren't willing to take any risks at all, or do what's necessary to mitigate those risks.

It reminds me of the game PlanetSide: one person with a grenade launcher using plasma (lots of splash + damage over time) grenades could hold a stairway against 20-30 people, and that's not an exageration. Want to know why it worked? Because everyone was so terrified for their kill/death ratio that they didn't comprehend that rushing the one guy would mean none of them die, they take the stairs, and the guy with the grenades dies. Instead, they bunch up, one or two trickle in, get slaughtered, and all the splash from the grenades slowly chips at people, and they die because they can't back up or someone can't reach to heal them.

The AFK cloaker is that guy in the stairs with the grenade. Call his bluff. Bring your mates. If it's just one guy (the cloaker is AFK), you win, and you go about your business. If he's got mates, you make sure you have enough to defend yourself, and you work together. But the only way he wins is if you let him.

Again, down-vote, there's nothing wrong or broken with AFK cloaking.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2011-12-16 21:43:09 UTC
I literally can't wait to see every roam being nothing but cloaky ships.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Spork Witch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2011-12-16 21:50:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I literally can't wait to see every roam being nothing but cloaky ships.

I think it'd be hilarious lol. Can you imagine the panic you could instill? lol For all they know, it's a fleet of BlackOps lol. You goons have the numbers, how about putting one of those famous blobs to work! Teach the nubtards to just undock and stop letting the AFK cloaker scare them too much to undock.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#92 - 2011-12-16 21:57:16 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Currently, Nullsec is currently MUCH, MUCH safer than hisec

No, it isn't.
Oh but it is, for one simple reason. Local works far better in null sec, than in high sec.

No, it isn't, for one simple reason. In nullsec, even blues might shoot you.
Sure, if you like. Roll

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2011-12-16 22:30:17 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
No, it isn't, for one simple reason. In nullsec, even blues might shoot you.
Sure, if you like. Roll

I'm not sure if you don't believe me, or if you mean that awoxers are as prevalent in empire as they are in nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#94 - 2011-12-16 23:37:08 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
No, it isn't, for one simple reason. In nullsec, even blues might shoot you.
Sure, if you like. Roll

I'm not sure if you don't believe me, or if you mean that awoxers are as prevalent in empire as they are in nullsec.


For those of us who don't have blues....
and
For those whom only set positive standards to players/corps that don't shoot us,
and
For those of us with the Sec Status to travel through hisec,

Nullsec is much safer than Hisec. I'm' not calling hisec dangerous, I'm just saying that identifying threats in nullsec is easier, and hence its safer! Just becuase this isn't true for your specific corp, doesn't make it untrue for the majority of Nullsec residence.

Local allows you to instantly know if there is a potential threat in system, meaning you can almost always get safe if you're so risk-adverse. In Hisec, there are usually so many neutrals that identifying threats is much more difficult.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-12-16 23:42:48 UTC
Hisec neutrals are the nullsec blues. You can't know they're friendly, you can only assume.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Spork Witch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2011-12-16 23:45:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
No, it isn't, for one simple reason. In nullsec, even blues might shoot you.
Sure, if you like. Roll

I'm not sure if you don't believe me, or if you mean that awoxers are as prevalent in empire as they are in nullsec.


For those of us who don't have blues....
and
For those whom only set positive standards to players/corps that don't shoot us,
and
For those of us with the Sec Status to travel through hisec,

Nullsec is much safer than Hisec. I'm' not calling hisec dangerous, I'm just saying that identifying threats in nullsec is easier, and hence its safer! Just becuase this isn't true for your specific corp, doesn't make it untrue for the majority of Nullsec residence.

Local allows you to instantly know if there is a potential threat in system, meaning you can almost always get safe if you're so risk-adverse. In Hisec, there are usually so many neutrals that identifying threats is much more difficult.

Overall I agree, but with one caveat: trustworthy blues or not, friendly fire incidents do occur. Whether it's because someone tweaked a setting wrong, someone misclicked, whatever, they do occur. I lost a pod once after an engagement because I sat too long on the far side of the gate (manning POS guns on another character), because I saw nothing but blues. Well, one of them decided that 300m worth of clone would be a nice juicy target; an overview bug caused me not to show as blue when I should have.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2011-12-17 00:21:56 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Hisec neutrals are the nullsec blues. You can't know they're friendly, you can only assume.

Also, not only can you only assume they're friendly, you also have to be vigilant at all times. It doesn't take many seconds of inattentiveness before a true hostile has joined the system, found you and pinned you down.

Nullsec isn't safer than hisec, it's inherently less safe. There are tons of tools available right now to help mitigate that risk, true, but it still takes vigilence to and effort to mitigate that risk. In hisec, unless you're running around with very expensive cargo or mods, or mine ice in gallente space (and maybe just mine in general in and around the ice belt systems when there's nobody to gank in there), chances are you're safe, and you can leave to go take a pee, make dinner etc with your ship in space. I autopilot freighters and ships between market hubs every now and again, and I've yet to be ganked.

In fact, I've yet to be ganked on any char in hisec since 2005. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2011-12-17 06:22:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Hisec neutrals are the nullsec blues. You can't know they're friendly, you can only assume.

Also, not only can you only assume they're friendly, you also have to be vigilant at all times. It doesn't take many seconds of inattentiveness before a true hostile has joined the system, found you and pinned you down.

Nullsec isn't safer than hisec, it's inherently less safe. There are tons of tools available right now to help mitigate that risk, true, but it still takes vigilence to and effort to mitigate that risk. In hisec, unless you're running around with very expensive cargo or mods, or mine ice in gallente space (and maybe just mine in general in and around the ice belt systems when there's nobody to gank in there), chances are you're safe, and you can leave to go take a pee, make dinner etc with your ship in space. I autopilot freighters and ships between market hubs every now and again, and I've yet to be ganked.

In fact, I've yet to be ganked on any char in hisec since 2005. vOv


Autopilot a full Iteron 5 between Amarr and Jita and tell me what happens.

You mitigate risk by choosing ships that are less gankable and generally take a group effort to gank. A person or group wanting to stall financial gain in an area realizes that it's to easy. They park cloaky bomber alt in a ratting system and play another game, this has the effect without any effort on there end, maybe an attack every once in a while to keep the locals on there feet. But it is to easy to scare the crap out of everyone in a system, all you have to do is show up.

Now lets remove local, it removes the necessity for them to be afk. Now to gain the same effect as before they actually have to attack ratters, they have to actively engage a target to get noticed. Which in turn would encourage safer ratting practices and gate security as well as active intel rather than passive local. Its lazy to expect 100% accurate intel delivered on silver platter.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2011-12-17 07:54:54 UTC
Ok a simple fix for AFK Cloaking, REMOVE LOCAL :D

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2011-12-17 09:12:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I literally can't wait to see every roam being nothing but cloaky ships.


Oh god, I hope not. While a more unpredictable local could be more interresting, seeing everyone running around with a cloak on will be no fun at all. Some from of defence against them needs to happen too.

A probing game, or a fuel based system is the two most likely scenarios.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.