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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1401 - 2011-12-12 19:41:41 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
Probably it is too early to see a change in these rankings, but still, following is the
current stats copied from eve kill. ROKH is the sole representative here.

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 79930
2 Hurricane 45597
3 Abaddon 31775
4 Tengu 22205
5 Maelstrom 18365
6 Tornado 16221
7 Armageddon 14872
8 Scimitar 11504
9 Tempest 10319
10 Sabre 9789
11 Cynabal 9144
12 Huginn 8606
13 Thrasher 8188
14 Loki 7231
15 Rapier 7170
16 Lachesis 7156
17 Vagabond 7141
18 Rokh 7135
19 Zealot 7112
20 Rifter 7106

Rank Weapons Kills
1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 33892
2 425mm AutoCannon II 13747
3 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 9400
4 Mega Pulse Laser II 8748
5 200mm AutoCannon II 7454
6 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 6344
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 5996
8 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 5341
9 150mm Light AutoCannon II 5245
10 800mm Repeating Artillery II 5046
11 Heavy Pulse Laser II 4640
12 425mm Railgun II 2587
13 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 2388
14 Light Neutron Blaster II 2143
15 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 2090
16 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher 2000
17 280mm Howitzer Artillery II 1713
18 Dual 180mm AutoCannon II 1662
19 Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I 1598
20 Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1594



pandemic legion started using rokh as fleet sniper.
but the railguns need about 10-15% more damage so the rokh can compete with abadon and still abadon would have more ehp and a bigger cargohold to load all the 800cap boosters.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1402 - 2011-12-12 20:36:17 UTC
"Probably it is too early to see a change in these rankings" so why the tornado is there and no other tier 3 bc?:O
winmatar is still op , hybrids still crap
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1403 - 2011-12-12 21:29:59 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
"Probably it is too early to see a change in these rankings" so why the tornado is there and no other tier 3 bc?:O
winmatar is still op , hybrids still crap



this pretty much.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#1404 - 2011-12-12 21:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
m0cking bird wrote:
The Djego wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
...

...



I was not playing eve-online in 2006. So I wouldn't know if what you're saying is factual. Gallente battleships with 90% stasis webifiers would not increase their viability that much. Mobile ships will still be @ a advantage. Although engaging sub-battleships will be more effective. Once in stasis webifier range but, from what I've been reading in this thread. That's the problem to begin with (even getting into overloaded stasis webifier range). I have no issue getting into range, but Gallente battleships also have very strong defences and adequate damage projection. Which compensates for lack of mobility. Again, I don't have issues with Gallente battleships solo and I'm pretty sure most in this thread are focusing on medium turrets.


Well people complained a lot during the nano age, the "Can't get in range, can't do damage." isn't a new thing. While it is true that you had issues against nano fittings, you still seen the megas out there as the dps workhorse for solo/small gang game play. For me it did come down to having just the tool to get the job done quick or solo rather heavy tanked purger drakes(pretty annoying) or CS in a ship with a very solid defense against anything that could attack you at close range while being passable at scaring off a nano HAC or two. Similar to the cane, pest or nano drake today it was a ship that worked in your pvp environment against nearly any target you did face there and did offer a particular advantage(applied DPS, ability to take down stuff in belts and at gates extreme fast) over the the alternatives if you can live with her drawbacks(range, massive cap need, speed, weak tank).

While I am obviously a bit more BS focused then most of the eve players, in general the change would also make the Thorax pretty attractive, since it balances up her weaknesses with a solid advantage when it comes down to close range fighting. I wouldn't mind flying one again with adjustments to the web strength. The brutix will always suffer from being not as quick as a rax and lacking the punch of the mega, however with a extra med you could probably win 1o1s against other BCs with a TD or beefing up the tank in gank fits to useful levels.

In the end, what you see is what you get. Getting in range is key and the ships should offer a solid advantage if you pull it off for all the hassle and drawbacks involved with this in common pvp. You might be not able to gtfo in fights, however you become damn hard to tackle at your range by smaller ships, can pin down and kill neuting **** before it sucks you dry, counter close range tactics like tds or abs reasonable well and people will be really screwed if they fail to kite you in solo and small gang pvp. A point blank ship, that excels at web range pvp and gank, that has no real weakness in the meta game when it comes to close range pvp. Bring it in range and shoot stuff down with it, like it was back in the days.

Edit: If CCP changes the speed penalty at least for the resist and active tank armor rigs, I would be ok with the ability of the ships to bring them in range. Blasters are not great fleet weapons, kitting should remain a very viable tactic against blaster ships and this battle should be won or lost by player skill. Getting in range doesn't has to be very easy, however it should be worth it in realistic scenarios(at least the ones where it makes sense to fly a blaster ship), giving you the ability to actually take down the target once you managed it in a very effective and predictable way.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1405 - 2011-12-12 22:37:34 UTC
Data above is related to the period [2011-12-1 to 2011-12-12]
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1406 - 2011-12-13 12:47:29 UTC
Just wanted to report that railguns are much improved by the recent changes. Cormorant is pretty awesome now Lol

The only thing I could suggest would be to reduce the rate of fire and increase damage, to make them better for sniping, and also to reduce server load (the same as what was done for projectiles a while back).

Blasters are still kinda meh; I wonder if a 100% optimal range increase would help?

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1407 - 2011-12-13 15:07:00 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Just wanted to report that railguns are much improved by the recent changes. Cormorant is pretty awesome now Lol

The only thing I could suggest would be to reduce the rate of fire and increase damage, to make them better for sniping, and also to reduce server load (the same as what was done for projectiles a while back).

Blasters are still kinda meh; I wonder if a 100% optimal range increase would help?


well the frigcize hybrid ships where ok before the patch but now they are really greate becouse u can fit them easier

the problem is with cruiser and BS hulls, in those hulls u are either out of range or u are outdamaged by projektiles and lasers in the middle and long range
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#1408 - 2011-12-13 16:11:06 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
"Probably it is too early to see a change in these rankings" so why the tornado is there and no other tier 3 bc?:O
winmatar is still op , hybrids still crap

Both the Naga and Oracle have proven quite effective in PvP.

The Talos is the only one that is struggling, considering the general tactic relies on range.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1409 - 2011-12-13 20:16:18 UTC
Xtover wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
"Probably it is too early to see a change in these rankings" so why the tornado is there and no other tier 3 bc?:O
winmatar is still op , hybrids still crap

Both the Naga and Oracle have proven quite effective in PvP.

The Talos is the only one that is struggling, considering the general tactic relies on range.


The Talos has any other Gallente ship is only good on paper, station undocks, gates and gank in belts until they get meanings to fight in med range.

Med range, med range and med range.

Did I mentioned MED RANGE? ?
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1410 - 2011-12-13 22:42:29 UTC
TLDR: Make Jav+Spike Blaster charges, and make Void+Null Railgun Charges

So i was looking at a way to fix blasters by fixing the ammo themselves instead of the guns. After looking at the stats for Tech 2 ammos, i came to the conclusion that the easiet fix would be switch the stats of Tech2 railgun ammo and Tech 2 blaster ammo.

Here are the stats bellow:

Used In |Ammo |Optimal| Falloff| Tracking|Damage
Railgun |Void |0.75 |0.5 |0.75 |14
Railgun |Null |1.25 |1.25 |1 |8
Blaster |Jav |0.25 |1 |1.25 |15
Blaster |Spike |1.8 |1 |0.25 |11
I hate this forum and its sucky formating

Currently Jav and Spike modify the range to much for railguns. Making the range too extreme or too short. Using void and Null in railguns would even out, the extremes and make the caldari range bonuses more useful.

While Blasters need tracking at close range, and Null is the weakest long range ammo of the short range guns. By using Jav instead of Void, you get tracking you need for super close range, at the cost of optimal which are tiny anyway. While giving you the range you badly need with spike, over Null at the penalty of tracking.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1411 - 2011-12-14 09:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
m0cking bird wrote:
As you've stated. Thread is dead and so is the conversation. Enjoy Gallente rail-gun boost. I'll be flying Rail-Deimos/Thorax soon enough. Have other things I want to use alot before then.

Like the more important issue of coming up with set-ups and using ships to deal with t2 gang-link boosted battle-cruisers and tier 3 battle-cruisers.

I rather point out how bad neg ten is on the forums though. That's my interest on the forums atm.


-neg ten are terrible. Leave your that one system alot more and then you can give me advice.
You should read your own posts, before making judgement on others on the forum. Blink

You stated in the past that no boost was needed, you were wrong. As can be seen by the fact that CCP and many more, knew that a boost was needed.
You now say they are fine and no more change is required. Many can see that the boost made, wasn't nearly enough for blasters and maybe even rails. Blasters for sure, haven't had nearly enough change to make them viable.

But I see you are stuck in a system of Ad hominem retorts. (see what I did there) As funny as they are, they only point to how weak your argument actually is. So I'll take what you say with a pinch of salt. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1412 - 2011-12-14 11:55:28 UTC
Tbh blasters really are fine - but the ships need an overall balancing fix between minmatar and gallente (make Gallente agile and low mass and keep minmatar fastest but also highest mass with all the junk they got glued on their ships).
This would also give nanofibers/overdrives a better role distribution with nanofibers helping minmatar a lot and overdrives being good for gallente ships wanting to chase down minmatar ships over range...

Railguns lack more power, but tbh so does beams but the increase should come from better alpha and not more dps. Railguns already have a good dps compared to the other weapon systems.

Then ofcourse hybrid ammunition (and energy ammunition) need a look over and I still don't see why minmatar ammunition doesn't do at least 25-50% explosive damage on EMP, phased plasma and all the other types.
I don't personally think Null need a boost, however barrage and scorch could do with less range for the damage they provide.

Pinky
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1413 - 2011-12-14 16:15:59 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Tbh blasters really are fine - but the ships need an overall balancing fix between minmatar and gallente (make Gallente agile and low mass and keep minmatar fastest but also highest mass with all the junk they got glued on their ships).
This would also give nanofibers/overdrives a better role distribution with nanofibers helping minmatar a lot and overdrives being good for gallente ships wanting to chase down minmatar ships over range...

Railguns lack more power, but tbh so does beams but the increase should come from better alpha and not more dps. Railguns already have a good dps compared to the other weapon systems.

Then ofcourse hybrid ammunition (and energy ammunition) need a look over and I still don't see why minmatar ammunition doesn't do at least 25-50% explosive damage on EMP, phased plasma and all the other types.
I don't personally think Null need a boost, however barrage and scorch could do with less range for the damage they provide.

Pinky


what if they changed the 5% damage bonus per level to a 7.5% to damage per level... that way you are looking at an increase of 12.5% in overall dps from the ships...

one thing that we need to aviod is making hybrids too good... we have all seen atry abbadons and that is just wrong...


There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1414 - 2011-12-14 17:44:50 UTC
The Djego wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
...


The golden age was in 2006, before the hp buff and rigs. Blaster ships where quick and did pack lots of punch. Gangs where a lot smaller, not anybody flown and fitted T2(because it was quite expensive, like 260M Vagas etc.). However even then they where pretty niche, compared to the all out pawn mobiles that the nos\ecm drone ships where.

2006/7 was indeed the golden age, and 'happy time' for me, probably where I racked up most of my kills - Blaster Megathron was loads of fun back then - careful flying and you could sucker in even nano-addicts, showing them the pointy end of an Ion II... Cool

Haven't flown one in almost a year now, and haven't properly flown one in almost two. This still makes me a sad panda. On an aesthetics side, they also somewhat lost that 'visceral' nature when everything was updated, including mangling the SFX with those of dual Railguns… (Eve has sound? why yes, yes it does...)

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1415 - 2011-12-14 18:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Mag's wrote:
[quote=m0cking bird]

You stated in the past that no boost was needed, you were wrong. As can be seen by the fact that CCP and many more, knew that a boost was needed.
You now say they are fine and no more change is required. Many can see that the boost made, wasn't nearly enough for blasters and maybe even rails. Blasters for sure, haven't had nearly enough change to make them viable.

But I see you are stuck in a system of Ad hominem retorts. (see what I did there) As funny as they are, they only point to how weak your argument actually is. So I'll take what you say with a pinch of salt. Big smile



As I've said before ccp removed my response. I have little interest in half things I say. I say whatever and then walk away from it like a BOSS. Anyway, this will be the last time I respond to you because, I've lost interest in the forums again. Also, you're terrible and anything I say could only help you become a better pilot and have a better understanding of gameplay...

Like the Minmatar changes that happened in the past. I stated the same. Those who have no ability come on the forums and whine. Minmatar ships were good then and now they're really good. Universal viability in most forms of combat.

Like most threads populated by terrible pilots with limited experience and skill. The focus have always been misplaced by bads like yourself. My statements seem self-contradictory when you've only read this thread, but I've stated in the past. I'm aware of the issue most other pilots not willing to spend time or patients needed for Gallente combat (choosing targets carefully). Since I engage and often interact with very good Gallente pilots. Having flown Caldari and Gallente Hyrbrid ships since late 2007. Most experienced Hybrid pilots like myself, have no issues with Gallente ships or Caldari hybrid ships. Many are aware that the concept of close range combat is limiting above frigates and destroyers. There was not much you could do to change this without increasing the range of blaster turrets. Which many did not want.

So, I've tried to steer the discussion in the only possible direction CCP would take. Based on my own experience and interactions with pilots better than your whole alliance combined, but also and more importantly. By those who only fly with-in fleets or have little to no pvp experience. The later are the vast majority of pilots. Often fallowing and never leading, so their leaders tell them what is useful with-in a fleet setting. Any-ship not useful within a fleet is then seen as terrible by upwards of 90% of the players in this game. So, accepting most pilots are not willing to put in the time needed to fly blaster ships correctly or accept Gallente combat doctrine (close range damage platform). Why not just randomly argue for a increase in blaster range? I get bored sometimes and need to do things to amuse myself.

(Also, anyone who still believes those statics of weapons used and ships flown are very representative of anything other than what the most popular and common fleet doctrines. Can only look @ how the Rokh has made that list (very skewed). Being represented by one entity (Pandemic Legion). Another argument that I've made a very long time ago.)

Anyway, back to this negative ten loser. CCP has already agreed with my analysis of the issue. Which is the concept is inferior compared with conventional warfare used by ships useful in large fleets like the Drake and Abaddon. The other is skirmish warfare in-bodied by Minmatar ships and some Caldari ships (Drake, Nighthawk, Caracal, Caracal Navy Issue, Osprey Navy Issue, Tengu, Rook, Cerberus). Since reading CCP's response. I'm confident CCP will not move to change Minmatar ships in a significant way. Which is something I believe might be pushed to excess by many in the community. Also, CCP will not touch scorch because that is Amarr ships 90% stasis webifier. Not to mention I believe scorch should be boosted. Removing all penalties and introducing a reduced capacitor usage bonus instead. Making Amarr as complete in fleet (conventional warfare) engagements as Minmatar are complete in skirmish warfare. Caldari is not as complete, but close enough. Gallente engagement concepts are outmoded, but not broken. It works, but is inferior to other concepts.


-proxyyyy
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1416 - 2011-12-14 18:32:27 UTC
Rock, Paper, Scissors, Iron Bar, Puddle of mud, Plastic cup, chocolate teapot has too mant combinations/permutations for the little minds at CCP to ballance. It never will be.

Game is out of ballance at a fundimental level when the smallest class of non cap ship (Frigate) can have over half the damage of the largest non cap ship (Battle ship). If CCP really want a game in which case all classes of ship are used they need to adjust the ship classes massively so that a BS can only hit a Frig one in one hundred times. (the one should be a kill shot though) and a Frig should do very little damage to a BS.

Admit the game mechanics are fundamentily flawed and go back to the drawing board and come up with new calculations to determine ship class ultimate damage, ship class weapon targeting/tracking/potential damage delivery. If a frig cant do any real damage to a BS people will need to take out larger ships. If larger ships cant hit smaller ones all fleets will also need smaller ships. This will necessitate fleets have ships of all classes so newer players are not left out but also that high skill players are also valued.

I'd love to know the velocity projectile guns actualy spit out rounds so that damage is instantaneous. Have a feeling the game mechanics are breaking the laws of physics. unless each round has a micro MWD fitted to it that is.

If a damage time delay was added to all projectile based weapons Hybrid & Projectile) that might lessen the uberness of projectile weapons, only laser based weapons should have near instant damage.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1417 - 2011-12-14 20:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Charles Edisson wrote:
If a damage time delay was added to all projectile based weapons Hybrid & Projectile) that might lessen the uberness of projectile weapons, only laser based weapons should have near instant damage.


I like this idea.
From real physics lasers should go at light speed (means practicaly instant damage for us), then hybrids with about 40 km / second, then projectile with maybe 20 km per second and than missles that are the slowest.

I would like this, not becouse of balancing, just becouse it gives me better "feeling" and adds some deeper mechanics to the game.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1418 - 2011-12-15 17:34:55 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
Stuff....
Can I have a TL:DR

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1419 - 2011-12-15 17:58:13 UTC
Charles Edisson wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors, Iron Bar, Puddle of mud, Plastic cup, chocolate teapot has too mant combinations/permutations for the little minds at CCP to ballance. It never will be.

Game is out of ballance at a fundimental level when the smallest class of non cap ship (Frigate) can have over half the damage of the largest non cap ship (Battle ship). If CCP really want a game in which case all classes of ship are used they need to adjust the ship classes massively so that a BS can only hit a Frig one in one hundred times. (the one should be a kill shot though) and a Frig should do very little damage to a BS.

Admit the game mechanics are fundamentily flawed and go back to the drawing board and come up with new calculations to determine ship class ultimate damage, ship class weapon targeting/tracking/potential damage delivery. If a frig cant do any real damage to a BS people will need to take out larger ships. If larger ships cant hit smaller ones all fleets will also need smaller ships. This will necessitate fleets have ships of all classes so newer players are not left out but also that high skill players are also valued.

I'd love to know the velocity projectile guns actualy spit out rounds so that damage is instantaneous. Have a feeling the game mechanics are breaking the laws of physics. unless each round has a micro MWD fitted to it that is.

If a damage time delay was added to all projectile based weapons Hybrid & Projectile) that might lessen the uberness of projectile weapons, only laser based weapons should have near instant damage.


If they added in a signature radius component to the damage from turret ammo, similar to the missile damage formula, I think this would go a long way toward solving this issue. Currently, signature radius only applies to the turret tracking formula. Which means, if a BS sized weapon can track a frigate, long range or webbed, that frigate is going to take full damage.

This change alone would allow them to more easily balance hybrids and blaster boats without making them too effective against small targets.
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1420 - 2011-12-15 19:28:21 UTC
Zachis wrote:
Charles Edisson wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors, Iron Bar, Puddle of mud, Plastic cup, chocolate teapot has too mant combinations/permutations for the little minds at CCP to ballance. It never will be.

Game is out of ballance at a fundimental level when the smallest class of non cap ship (Frigate) can have over half the damage of the largest non cap ship (Battle ship). If CCP really want a game in which case all classes of ship are used they need to adjust the ship classes massively so that a BS can only hit a Frig one in one hundred times. (the one should be a kill shot though) and a Frig should do very little damage to a BS.

Admit the game mechanics are fundamentily flawed and go back to the drawing board and come up with new calculations to determine ship class ultimate damage, ship class weapon targeting/tracking/potential damage delivery. If a frig cant do any real damage to a BS people will need to take out larger ships. If larger ships cant hit smaller ones all fleets will also need smaller ships. This will necessitate fleets have ships of all classes so newer players are not left out but also that high skill players are also valued.

I'd love to know the velocity projectile guns actualy spit out rounds so that damage is instantaneous. Have a feeling the game mechanics are breaking the laws of physics. unless each round has a micro MWD fitted to it that is.

If a damage time delay was added to all projectile based weapons Hybrid & Projectile) that might lessen the uberness of projectile weapons, only laser based weapons should have near instant damage.


If they added in a signature radius component to the damage from turret ammo, similar to the missile damage formula, I think this would go a long way toward solving this issue. Currently, signature radius only applies to the turret tracking formula. Which means, if a BS sized weapon can track a frigate, long range or webbed, that frigate is going to take full damage.

This change alone would allow them to more easily balance hybrids and blaster boats without making them too effective against small targets.



Signature radius is already a factor in turret damage calculations. The difference between turrets in missiles in this aspect is that sig radius and movement speed work independently of each other in missiles while with turrets they are tied together.