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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#2541 - 2014-10-02 05:58:41 UTC
Logistics is laborious, thankless task so I'd like to see more tuning to not completely screw over those people who do it. So I'm not quite sold on the range nerf for the JF/Rorqual. I'd also like to see the mining/industrial ship restriction removed from the Rorq SMA to at least provide one decent option for moving assembled ships.

Otherwise in principle the idea seems okay to me.
Stoffl
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2542 - 2014-10-02 05:59:37 UTC
I'd like to thank my mum, my dad, my gf, my grandparents, my sponsors and especially CCP for making all these tears possible.
Without all of you this wouldn't have been possible.


PEACE
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2543 - 2014-10-02 05:59:43 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
Dbars Grinding wrote:
I play eve for the big fights. Now they will be so rare :(



I agree that there will be fewer but there aren't many as it is. I think changes like this will create bottlenecks and staging areas that may increase the chances of larger fights because now large wars will have to take small steps to staging areas to build up forces and that will encourage others to try to stop them and cause more build ups and more fights. All of those staging areas will be very valuable and those forces in the area will be valuable so fights will happen. Yes, I do believe that huge fights will not be as likely but we will probably see more medium to large fights. This change allows for the potential for large fight to happen and as of right now there is little potential in null.

You realise that the ideea of having large stating points is simply wrong without the ability to feed the points with the tools you need? So that much for this ideea. But is also true that once you win a point, this will be a clear win since enemy won't have the option to reship or resupply in a timely manner. So after few attempts, large battles will die. And after a time all the brawlers will rely on ppl like GG to sponsor them to get ships to blow up. And in MOA specific case to run with them.Lol



If nothing else this game continuously proves that people want to fight and that the fights generally grow in size. Restricting how far a group can jump is going to hurt but once people adapt there will probably be plenty of fights. Instead having one long jump between point A and B there will be supply chains that reach down from A to B. Those points in between A and B will need to be defended and supplied and they will be in jump range of larger forces. There will be fights, it may be logistically more difficult but smart groups will overcome them.

This is a content creator and the people whom are mad about it are just scared of change and don't want their way of life changed because people are set in their ways and we can't see into the future so we are nervous that it is going to ruin our good time. Like the industry changes were going to be the end of EVE as we know it but now it doesn't seem near as bad as the forum fire made it out to be.

If nothing else this change will grow the need for jump capable pilots and the need for more PVP pilots in null to protect gates, bridges and slow-boating forces. Guerrilla warfare is the new name of the game and these large groups are going to be in for some hard times if they don't start to think about how to fight an insurgency instead of just blobbing small fleets.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Davionia Vanshel
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
#2544 - 2014-10-02 06:00:52 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
[quote=Onictus]^^

I see quite a few complaining about the difficulty in logistics. And they are correct, logistics WILL be harder. At first.

But ask yourself, how much do you need to import from jita? Any region of nullsec can be fully self sufficient when it comes to T1 production. Need to fuel towers? Use matching towers for the correct isotope types within your region.

All you need to import are fuel for off-racial capitals and t2 mats. Everything else can be sourced locally. Yes, you will have to expand your industrial and mining operations. But that isn't a bad thing.



Nope. Folks use Caldari POSes for complex reactions due to their CPU.
Sibius Aidon
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#2545 - 2014-10-02 06:01:17 UTC
I realize now that these changes are these changes are a month away. This is plenty of time for CCP to redev their plan. By the time the patch comes out they may have made changes to it that saves the game from the proposed negative impacts. At this point we should just wait and see.
Oxide Ammar
#2546 - 2014-10-02 06:01:35 UTC
Suddenly the joke about that guy who lost his titan trying to use stargate isn't funny....because it's going to happen in future lol.

aaaaaaaand .......

Quote:
As above, capital ships will be able to use stargates, but will for the time being they will still be barred from entering Highsec (that is a larger discussion that we would like to revisit in future).


CCP is preparing to introduce capitals in hisec and it will only going to take time... If i have all the time to necro every thread in features and ideas section in forums requested capitals to be used in hisec and everyone was joking about them...LOL.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Officer Dibble
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#2547 - 2014-10-02 06:04:25 UTC
With these changes I will close my three paid accounts.
KanashiiKami
#2548 - 2014-10-02 06:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Ok so here is my post again summarizing everything.

But first let me say, everyone that sells their mains and cancels their accounts before this lands is an idiot and will regret doing that, because these changes ARE NOT FINAL CCP always reserves the right to change things before deployment.

That being said im going to list off the list of compromises and counter proposal to CCP


1. Jump range issue.

5 ly cap is bad. We can all agree on that.

Idea Solution #1 - scaled jump range for each type of ship I will list max ranges. which should be fair. And to keep it simple i used whole numbers.

Carriers, JF, Rorquals - 12 LY

Dreads - 10 LY

Super Carriers - 7 ly

Titans - 5 ly

IdeaSolution #2

A new item in either a mid slot, low slot or rig slot; Maximum 1 fitted at a time that provides a bonus to jump range. Bonus will be based on the ship you are flying and will be % based T2 versions of this module will be a 50% increase of the T1 version.


2. Jump Fatigue

Cooldown timers are good, but the current math is a bit extreme.

Idea Solution #1 - scaled fatigue based on the ship you are flying. I will use the same formula as a base for the adjustments.

Titan - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.1) - standard ccp formula
Super Carrier - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.15)
Dread - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.2)
Carrier - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.25)
JF, Rorqual, Black ops - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.35)

This favors logistics ships over combat ships, because lets face it logistics is a pain in the arse at times.

Idea Solution # 2 - New implants and boosters that reduce the amount of fatigue you get from the distance traveled.

Names for implants might include, Alarm Clock, Yawn, Dream
Booster names might include, NoDoze, Surge, Jolt, Coffee, Tweek, or SUPER CAFFINATED QUAFE!

However there needs to be a downside to boosters, I think an appropriate downside is significant increase in isotope and cap usage.

Idea Soultion # 3 - Make the fatigue a flat rate base on the type of jump.

Type may include
Local - within constellation
Constellational - within the region but outside the constellation
Regtional - outside your region.

Idea Solution # 4 - Make an absolute cap on how much fatigue you can get, cause as it stands you can get several years of fatigue within a week.

3. Cap ships using gates

This goes against EvE canon set forth in the chronicles. Stop that!


4. Pod jumping

Get your ship into low sec with a nice clone vat on it have all your new members do that. Fly out to null space and then have them self destruct. And set up regular jump schedules.


------------

To my fellow EvE players, these are some fairly balanced solutions. If you like them PLEASE quote which ones you like and say I like this for balance or something along those lines.

Whining, saying you quit blahh blahh blahh will not get CCP to listen. If you want them to listen you must always present your case like a lawyer and convince them why their idea is bad. I have presented my case, and I have offered several solutions which go along with CCP's ideas but are not as harsh as cutting off everyone's limbs.


SO AGAIN,

If you like any of these ideas, quote them, post them and offer feed by of why this or this isnt a good solution.


Thank you for your time today and CCP I do hope you will consider these solutions as a more reasonable balance to nerfing power projection and capital projections.

Regards
Obsidian Hawk
Capital pilot since 2008


me LIKEs

i like what you said about EVE CANON. so DEV should totally make a new module that enable gate travel instead, 1 that will encumber all the ship stats? maybe? just maybe lol, cos a new module, will add to the CANON, a change will destroy all that CANON (is my logic correct?)

as you said, fatique running into years, thats so true. the math DEVs have in mind are exponentially multiplying.
i said this previously -- https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5074624#post5074624

1) limited number of jumps before a 24hr cd sets in
2) use integers (CCP need to understand simplifying a game numerically is good for our computers)

WUT ???
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#2549 - 2014-10-02 06:06:19 UTC
Bnizzle wrote:
I wonder if this will affect Black Frogs Prices?


They've already posted that they are probably ******
lexa21
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2550 - 2014-10-02 06:07:01 UTC
The only thing i want is my money back
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2551 - 2014-10-02 06:07:12 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Davionia Vanshel wrote:
You could fix (some of) the JF tears by making it so that you need to infini-point it with a Hictor - after all like Titans (T2 Dreads) and supers (T2 carriers) the JF is a T2 capital ship. The rest you can fix by leaving JF Jump Range alone.

Also I am also not sure what the mechanics will be while cynoing out under gate-cloak. Instead of an instawarping inty you'd have insta-jumping JFs. You'd also have lots of probes on regional gates so does a JF get a cloak?

Hmmm what is it with CCP and freighters - first it was the Freighter nerf that was not a nerf with +3 capital rigs which lasted all of what 2 days??? ... and now this.


I see where you're going with that, but just FYI, the only T2 capital ship is the Jump Freighter (no other "capital" requires moongoo or tech 2 capital components or a tech 2 BPC).


Fun fact, tech 2 component BPOs exist for the tech 2 variant of the other capital components, they just have no use.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#2552 - 2014-10-02 06:08:39 UTC
Caius Sivaris wrote:
The tears are absolutely delicious, and there are barrels of them.

All those people unable to fight without at least 1000 of their closest friends, having to face their limitations, is awesome.

Best. Change. Ever.

My only regret is that it's announced to soon, many assets will be put in safety before patch deployment, there would have been epic fire sales as regions fell...

PS: with regard to CSM representatives breaking their NDA giving advance notice to their masters, heads must rolls.

Wut? You about to miss all the juicy haulers you "solo" with 8-10 friends in lowsec to the still working mechanics? Hahahahaha, you are my working class hero m8 Lol
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#2553 - 2014-10-02 06:09:12 UTC
Daegara Odenson wrote:
This may have already been mentioned, apologies if so but RE: logistics and the use of JFs for supplying 0.0:

Many people undock from 4-4 in JFs and immediately jump to a cyno to avoid the veritable shitstorm that is the 4-4 undock and the surrounding systems. Under the range limit of 5 light years however that leaves only 2 valid low sec systems that may be jumped to:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/range/Nomad,0/Jita

Two systems, a small collection of stations, of which one 1 is non-kickout. I'm all in favour of bottlenecks for content but this is the most populous trade hub in new eden would it not be possible to at least get 1 other option? Making max jump range 6 light years would for example offer 22 possible cyno-out points otherwise I can envision JF losses quickly outstripping production and the logistics backbone of new eden tumbling like a house of cards.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/range/Nomad,1/Jita

As it stands now, unless you happen to want to head in that direction already cynoing out of 4-4 as is not a practical option at all.



CCP hates Jita. They don't care about JF problems there at all.
Ormarr Kai
Pator Tech School
#2554 - 2014-10-02 06:10:15 UTC
Does CCP even think about their next patch or just randomly guess changes? This will stagnate nullsec even more. The real target should be sov mechanics. Half of these changes also bite into eve's lore.

Eve is all about big fights and coalitions. Maybe add more systems to spread things out.
Miyammato Musashi
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
#2555 - 2014-10-02 06:11:41 UTC
You guys just aren't getting it. The game is changing. The problems in null run deep. CCP recognizes this, and for once they are actually going to fix it. Once these changes come to pass what it means to hold space, what it means to live in null, will fundamentally change. You are crying about losing your conception of alliances and nullsec, while at the same time bitching about a fundamentally flawed system. CCP is re-factoring the fundamentals so null can be that great chess board it used to be. This is going to be really GOOD FOR THE GAME! It's actually going to be meaningful again! You'll need to use your head. There's going to be so much opportunity in null. You can't see it because you can't get out of your current paradigm. This change fundamentally changes eve. S*** matters again. Caps are not irrelevant. In fact, they will be more interesting and valuable than ever after this. You null capital carebears (and that's exactly what you are) are just miffed b/c the simplicity of the former system ends here. In a few months, you're going to forget this thread and really start thinking about null again. I'd bet anything on that...

I am a meat popsicle. 
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#2556 - 2014-10-02 06:12:21 UTC
Attn CCP Greyscale,


Hey so first BRAVO. I applaud the nullsec team you have really stepped up. Nobody can question the CCP motto "Fearless" now. I wish I was in Iceland I would certainly shake your hand and buy you all a beer. Now that I have made out with all the pleasantries if you don't mind me embellishing a few critiques.


1 ) I like jump fatigue. If it came in the way suggested I would be fine with it. With a exception.

The Jumpfreighter imho should be left untouched till you are able to make changes to nullsec that the chord to Jita is no longer needed or greatly reduced. Then come in with the JF change.


2) Why not a simpler and as effective change: Capitals and Supers can use gates or Teleportation can take place to an adjacent system. Adjacent being defined by gate connection.


3) The only thing I would role out with the above changes in Phoebe is: Deployable Cynosural Inhibitor Inhibitor. A deployable unit that once online creates a sphere a cyno can be lit despite a CynoJammer.

This still nets the same results as you intended with Jump Fatigue with simpler application and much easier for the user to understand. I see lots of whoops consequences associated with Jump Fatigue ( which will be hilarious for everyone except the whoopser ). Again BRAVO!

♥ Manny

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2557 - 2014-10-02 06:12:26 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
Yes, caching is going to be something of a thing, but the amount of caches you need to get good coverage of the bulk of the cluster is large (somewhere on the order of 1 per region), and the effort involved in restocking them is distinctly non-trivial.


It's cute how you think that we can't/wont do that.

This is nothing but a massive nerf to attackers. I have always been a fan of your game design ideas and decisions. But this is complete and utter bullshit that goes exactly in the opposite direction of where things should go. We need things to attack that are not sov. Not reasons to not attack anything at all.


We know you *can*, if you apply yourselves. The intent is that you will find that you don't *need* to and you actually don't *want* to either.



Maybe you should consider your suggested changes again then. Nobody is going to move a fleet of dreads via gates for more than a few gates.

Caching dreads, carriers, etc. on the other hand will solve the movement problem for capitals.

Here is an idea, in a few days look to see if the dedicated capital pilots that can't fly interceptors now have modified their skill queues.


Another idea; monitor the unsubbed accounts of paying players that have spent years and years to grind, skill and aquire carriers, dreads, rorquals and jump freigthers on the same character, and won't be able to use them efficiently after such a change.

My CCP-ideas fatigue cooldown is now about 2 months, if another "bright" and CSM-un-supported CCP-idea hits the fan it'll grow exponentially to 2 years...

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#2558 - 2014-10-02 06:12:35 UTC
Officer Dibble wrote:
With these changes I will close my three paid accounts.


Please contract me your personal belongings. Thanks.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2559 - 2014-10-02 06:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
Bisches McFrosty wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
The last several pages have been consistent in their message of "these changes are making life harder for logistics pilots".

Yes, they will. That's part of the point. From the looks of it, CCP is trying to push nullsec groups into mining, refining, and building locally in nullsec, rather than getting everything you need in highsec and shipping it out to nullsec for consumption. That was part of the though with the Crius industry changes, to reprocessing in particular.

It makes perfect sense why they're doing it, too. Much of nullsec sits unused, despite being "owned", and the resources out there could fuel local economies, T2 / T3 production, the whole nine yards. Yet, people enjoy the convenience of loading up a JF in Jita and jumping off back to null for one-stop shopping. If you kneecap near-instant logistics, you suddenly create local demands that can be satisfied by manufacturers in nullsec.

Also, keep in mind, if the current vision for EVE pans out, within a few years we're going to be moving out into unknown space, colonizing new systems, opening new stargates, and the like. On the frontier, you harvest resources available to you, rather than running back to developed space for everything you need.

As an aside, I understand that from a personal level, a lot of people have invested time and money into being logistics pilots with JFs, good JDC skills, and all that. Anytime a nerf happens that hits you where you spent SP and ISK, it hurts. But I hope that you and everyone else out there in the same boat will see that we need to make the universe big once again.

Besides, there's always opportunity in these changes... last time I checked, there were cloaky haulers that can ferry loot to and from trade hubs quickly. If people can no longer transport items via JF (easy mode), maybe there's money to be made in a new market? Maybe an EVE version of Western Union?



One small problem - all the materials you need to do production do not exist locally in deep sov null, and these systems can be 30+ LY from lowsec and with a regional gate larger than 5 LY in between. Please tell me how living in such an area which cannot support local production and now requires a full time job consisting of some of the most tedious and boring "gameplay" in eve to supply it is going to be fun at all. Eve is not a job it is a game, I don't sub to eve so I can spend 4 hours a day doing boring sh*t logistics work and gate jumping so that maybe if I'm lucky I can spent the last 15 min I am online doing something I enjoy.

To fix this the 5 LY limit absolutely must be changed and should be based on ship class, not some absurd blanket limit for every ship in the game. And for the love of god this jump fatigue crap that requires me to have a spreadsheet open at all times needs to be simplified and capped. A max jump cool down of 1-3 days for someone that went full ****** and crossed the galaxy accomplishes the goal of keeping them out of any fights for several days without the stupid numbers being quoted today.

I really have little interest in playing a game that consists of me sitting in a station and watching a timer count down to tell me when I can do something fun again,

And all the idiots saying they used to supply nullsec with Indy/freighter convoys before there we're jump drives - that was before the warp speed changes. There is no way in hell I would pay to play a game that required me to jump a freighter at 5+ min per system 30+ jumps into hostile space. There is no fun to be had there.


There is an answer right there in your text, if its far away what you need then move there, problem solved, and if you think that NULL cant support building T1 hulls, well go and read some of eve uni wikis. Now you say you need to build T2 blablabla... how about adjusting to the new system, if you wont someone else will. Its really simple, most of the heavy stuff you can acquire in NULL everything else you can ship in.


Yes, I totally see people in nullsec flying primarily T1 hulls...not. I'm not saying you can't do it, but if I have 10 hours per week to play eve and I used to get to spend 9 hours doing something I find fun and 1 hour on tedious logistics work, and now I find that I'm spending 8 hours on tedious logistics and have 2 hours left for fun it's probably time to move on to some game where the devs are a bit less clueless.



This


Also, people saying that null can support itself on building t1 hulls are ********. There is a massive lack of low end minerals in null compared to all the high ends you get. If you actually look at the break down of minerals used to build tech 1 ships you would see this (for reference, a titan worth of trit fills many many Rheas full, where as you can fit all the rest of the minerals above mexalon into 1 JF cargo hold).
Epofhis
Amped.
Goonswarm Federation
#2560 - 2014-10-02 06:16:15 UTC
At this stage, half of the proposed plan is useful.

There should be a hard cap on jump fatigue that is 24 hours or less. Not everyone zooms around the galaxy now, and even less of us have the basement-dwelling time to wait days on end for timers to expire. A hard limit of 24 hours means that instead of going "okay, I've done all my jumping for this week, logging off till then" it becomes more of a matter of "okay, I've done all my jumps for today, I'll log back in tomorrow."

It would still have the wanted force projection nerf, in that caps will no longer be able to race from one end of the galaxy and back again in less than 2 hours, but will allow those of us who would actually like to play the bloody game in the spare time that we have to log in, do some capital jumping (whether for combat or otherwise) and log off knowing we will be able to log back in again and do it tomorrow.

Eve has been described as "a game that doesn't want you to play it", and I can't help but see the unnecessary length of cooldowns currently being proposed as reinforcing that opinion. God knows I'm not into logistics, but if I was, I would definitely be taking a good, hard look at where all that sub money was going.

Before posting in Features and Ideas, please remember that Eve is in no way obligated to change based on your stupidity, ineptitude, or well honed sense of personal butthurt.