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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Audrey Etheldred
Bodacious Space Pirates
#2281 - 2014-10-02 03:08:10 UTC
tl;dr end of empires, age of tribes.

Has it been considered to change the jump drive calibration skill to be a reduction in the cooldown? i'm not sure exactly what would be a good balance between too good vs training time, but i think it should be considered.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2282 - 2014-10-02 03:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Audrey Etheldred wrote:
tl;dr end of empires, age of tribes.

Has it been considered to change the jump drive calibration skill to be a reduction in the cooldown? i'm not sure exactly what would be a good balance between too good vs training time, but i think it should be considered.


When you have literally years trained at capital jump skills.

....not sufficient.


Quote:

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uziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2283 - 2014-10-02 03:09:40 UTC
If my displeasure wasn't already apparent, let me speak to CCP in a language I'm sure they understand.

http://i.imgur.com/RVhKxOX.png

http://i.imgur.com/tyKzdEM.png

From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.  Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.
Billy Hardcore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2284 - 2014-10-02 03:09:41 UTC
Audrey Etheldred wrote:
tl;dr end of empires, age of tribes.

Has it been considered to change the jump drive calibration skill to be a reduction in the cooldown? i'm not sure exactly what would be a good balance between too good vs training time, but i think it should be considered.


this^^^^ for those of us with jump cal 5 im just worried i spent forever training somethign pointless lol

#BillyFleet
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2285 - 2014-10-02 03:09:44 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Are you guys high?

No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before?

You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely.

Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game?


I have to kind of agree with this guy. I'm not much of a PvPer. On my main I'm the guy that corpies ask to move stuff in and out of NPC null or Provi or low sec or where ever. There are times when I need to move my cyno alt to 3 different times just to pick up the ships I'm moving and then 3 or 4 stops in the chain to get to where they are going and then another 3 or 4 jumps to get my carrier back to it's home. I fly: carriers, Rorquals and Jump Freighters. I've never had a carrier in combat I only use them for logistics as in moving ships around. I can say this will seriously hamper those activities and that will in most cases lead to me telling the newer player looking to get set up in null that he's on his own.

As things are currently it can take me all night just to move a few ships to NPC null for a friend. The changes that you guy propose here make that a 2 full nights of moving cyno alts and jumping things around.

So you start off making cynoing stuff around null more important than it already was with the industry changes and now you make the least fun activity in the game which is null sec logistics even more like seeing how many times you can slam you **** with a door before you pass out from the pain.

Maybe you guys should try playing this game sometime. Do me a favor. Get in a carrier and travel fit it. Then I want you to jump to some low sec system on the other side of the map and pick up a few ships then jump them deep into NPC null to the furthest back corner system that some player new to null is going to likely want to start out at and then tell me if you guys still want to make these changes. Oh and make sure you are not on company time while you are doing all this. I don't want you getting paid for it. That would change the experience.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Kah'Roor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2286 - 2014-10-02 03:09:57 UTC
This thread is awesome. I approve of the tears. The big null powers will be fine. The smaller groups will also be fine. Things change, we (as players) adapt. There was a time before jump freighters, capitals, jump bridges etc. They had empires then as well. The difference was those empires didn't coalesce into 2 powerhouses that could traverse the whole map in a couple minutes.

Keep the faith ccp. Don't flinch now.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#2287 - 2014-10-02 03:10:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Wrote some good stuff


Quote:
After a jump is complete but before your fatigue is increased, you gain a jump cooldown timer. The length of this timer is a number of minutes equal to your jump fatigue (before being increased by that jump!)



At the risk of this post getting lost in the tears .... the example cool down timers given in the blog appears to be wrong The cool down timer is supposed to be calculated and applied BEFORE the new jump fatigue is calculated. The wording of the dev blog is pretty clear and its even repeated. So the correct cool down values should be ..

Make 1 jump of 5 light years
Get a minimum cooldown timer of 1 minute (not the 5 + minutes in the dev blog example )
Get a Jump Fatigue of 1 + 5 mins

After 1 minute you can Make a second jump jump of up to 5 lightyears
You then get a cooldown timer of slightly over 5 minutes from the previous jumps as calculated
And get a Jump Fatigue of 5*5.4 = 27 minutes

After 6 minutes make a third jump of 5 lightyears
Get a timer of 23 minutes
Get a Jump Fatigue of 5 * 21 minutes = 2 hours

WTB : An image in my signature
Dark Phox
Strategic Isks Investments Corporation
#2288 - 2014-10-02 03:10:10 UTC
Joey Zasa wrote:
Dark Phox wrote:
[quote=Dark Phox]I
This would increase exploration, people would camp the suns hoping to catch new jumps into systems, and the times it takes capitals to reach a system would be pretty long, instead of instant.








Camp the sun? ok huh? did I miss something where the sun is the new cyno?



You didn't read my whole post.
Neesa Corrinne
Nyx Legion..
Breakpoint.
#2289 - 2014-10-02 03:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
If I lived to 150 I'd still never be able to drink all the delicious tears generated here.

The past five years of having to listen to nullseccer tell the rest of us to HTFU about not being able to roam in small gangs without being hot dropped every five jumps has been soooo worth it as of today.

-Removed some profanity. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Joey Zasa
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#2290 - 2014-10-02 03:10:38 UTC
Dark Phox wrote:
Remove please.




no, words mean something.......
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2291 - 2014-10-02 03:10:50 UTC
Yogsoloth wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:


I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend hours of my life to simply move subcapitals around. I refuse to spend half a day simply to move minerals and my production goods to and from Jita. This is a game, not a second job.





This is the point exactly. It'll be soo unpleasant to try and hold soo much space that large entities will cease to do so. Hence opening the door to new and smaller entities that will actually occupy and live in the space they hold.


The only space available will be beyond the 20ly from empire that will be feasible to service with logistics. The rest will infeasible to serve with logistics and blocked by perma camps at the entry from empire.
Aurora Tali
Doomheim
#2292 - 2014-10-02 03:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurora Tali
so Capitals cant hotdrop anymore to aa system 4 or 5 jumps away they have to use gates like all the mortals ? oh nooo i quit the Game my alliance **** size comparson tool cant hotdrop anymore _ look how big and strong you are and now you are afraid using gates with your Dread/Carrier xD pity :-P
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2293 - 2014-10-02 03:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Three simple words of warning about this 'idea' in it's current form:


STAR WARS GALAXIES


Forever a text book example of what NOT to do in a MMORPG, on all levels, and in every way. CCP you should be fully aware that such a upending, New Eden shattering, modification to a LIVE game is wholly and absolutely replicating the mistakes others have made in the past!

With that said, a few points (if there is no averting this change):

- Ship Jump Drives, NOT the pilots should have a cool down timer -- If I fly both Carriers and JF's for an Alliance, and after pew-pew I need to haul some blue's stuff from here to there, I am still stuck with the same fatigue timer!

- Light Year (LY) range should NOT be universally capped at 5LY - Diversity of choice should rule the day. For example, LY distance (even if reduced) should be staggered based on the ship type, as well as the 'energy' needed to jump ship mass (more about that in a moment). So i.e. Titans would be limited to the 5LY, while other capitals, like Carriers, get a longer jump range.

This forces choices on what capital ships to take vs. being able to throw the 'kitchen sink' at a problem and having massive escalations of Caps and Supers at the same time so quickly. So in essence, just like sub-caps have varying warp speeds, regulating how quickly they can get from place to place, CCP should just apply the same principle as regards LY distance thereby creating more emergence and choice.

- Jump Drives consume Fuel, perhaps marrying Fuel to the Mass of a Capital could be and option. The Bigger they ship the more fuel needed to create the energy necessary to 'jump' the Mass of the ship. Automatically this means that bigger ships will need maximum fuel for less range because of the enormous mass of the ship. Whereas lighter capitals (respectively speaking) require far less fuel to generate the same energy to jump the equivalent distance of a Titan's max jump range.

And while there is a version of this now, it can be ramped up so as to address some of the underlying issues CCP is attempting to address, but in a way that isn't a total redesign of the Jump system.

- CYNOS SHOULD HAVE restrictions - Any Cyno beacon should have a "BANDWIDTH" and maximum "SIGNAL STRENGTH" by which only a certain number / type of ships can lock on to it. Any ship attempting to lock onto a cyno that has maxed it's bandwith would receive a error message regarding signal distortion and an inability to lock onto beacon source.

There should also be different types of Cynos, with differenct Bandwidth and Signal Strengths, that a player can use to accomplish the task of lighting a Cyno, for a Capital Fleet to jump to.

(As an additional option: One could even map out a 'BROADCAST' Range so a cyno Pilot would also know the maximum distance away from the fleet they can deploy their beacon; in the same way that Captial pilots can see their max jump range now)

- Captials should not EVER use gates - 1) It's totally against the 11 year Cannon of EVE Online 2) You can count on the Players figuring out a way to make such a mechanic broken, just to spite CCP for the overall change - Roaming Gangs of Carriers in low sec anyone?


Now... for the WTF are you thinking?!?! part:

I finish the skill Fighters V tomorrow morning, and was looking forward to finally being able to acquire Fighter Bombers, and after all these years, this is what I find you cooking up CCP?

I'm sorry, I get that something needs to change to dissolve some of the identified issues that plague Null Sec; but WTF is this? You can't sell this to the players, in this format and after all these years of players understanding that Captials Jump space while subcaps travel it by gates, and you will absolutely lose subscribers. You might even kill the game with such a cheap solution that doesn't even make sense from a Sci-Fi, Cannon, nor Common Sense point of view.

This isn't a 'change' for the better, it's an evisceration of a fundamental and tenured part of the game. And while what exists is untenable, this is a well worn path of error that CCP best avoid; and not attempt an Alchemy of Development that NO ONE has yet to pull off, of trying to radically redesign something in a LIVE game!

I don't know what the answer to Null Sec is... but even I can tell that 'this' is not it.

I mean if your really dead set on this, and public comment is just for show (like the Phoenix changes were), then just get on with it and just start making EVE 2 instead... and let the real EVE Online pass away peacefully.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Billy Hardcore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2294 - 2014-10-02 03:12:27 UTC
Neesa Corrinne wrote:
If I lived to 150 I'd still never be able to drink all the delicious tears generated here.

The past five years of having to listen to nullshitlers tell the rest of us to HTFU about not being able to roam in small gangs without being hot dropped every five jumps has been soooo godfuckingdamned worth it as of today.



Incoming flood of nullsec ppl to w-space???? Plz jesus say its so!!

#BillyFleet
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2295 - 2014-10-02 03:12:38 UTC
Aurora Tali wrote:
so Capitals cant hotdrop anymore to aa system 4 or 5 jumps away they have to use gates like all the mortals ? oh nooo i quit the Game my alliance **** size comparson tool cant hotdrop anymore _ look how big and strong you are and now you are afraid using gates with your Dread/Carrier xD its even funny for new players who understand nothong about capital ships :-P



So post on your main pussy.

Lots of NPC corps showing support.
Teleri Nova
Apex Force
#2296 - 2014-10-02 03:13:34 UTC
This is going to kill living in NPC space as a small entity, with limited resources. In Fountain doing logistics to empire, will now seemingly require mid pointing twice in hostile CFC Sov systems (what could possibly go wrong). I'm sure it's the same for a lot of other NPC regions. For me, this would mean an immediate move to lowsec and the unsubbing of my carrier alt. I simply don't have the time, or interest, to spend the best part of a weekend simply trying to move stuff around and trying to ninja cyno so I can maybe get some PVP in. The range nerf is far too extreme (something around 7-8 for carriers would fairer), I could probably live with the timer, although it seems far too convoluted a system and would be a nightmare to synchronize in a larger fleet where people might have joined from different places, etc.

On a broader note, I can't see this changing anything regarding the status quo, large coalitions made an active choice not to fight each other, because big wars are more effort and time consuming than anyone, particularly the FC's, could be bothered with. Making them even more time consuming and effort intensive, as per these changes, is just going to turn stagnation up to 11. People will be far more reluctant to welp fleets, or have a proper brawl as replacing everything will drive the logistics dudes to an early grave. Overall this seems to strengthen the large coalitions, and sledgehammer anyone who has aspirations of challenging them. Nomadic types will get their wings clipped, and die of boredom if the content dries up in their region.
Kalissis
#2297 - 2014-10-02 03:13:37 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Are you guys high?

No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before?

You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely.

Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game?


I have to kind of agree with this guy. I'm not much of a PvPer. On my main I'm the guy that corpies ask to move stuff in and out of NPC null or Provi or low sec or where ever. There are times when I need to move my cyno alt to 3 different times just to pick up the ships I'm moving and then 3 or 4 stops in the chain to get to where they are going and then another 3 or 4 jumps to get my carrier ba.. [...] ... map and pick up a few ships then jump them deep into NPC null to the furthest back corner system that some player new to null is going to likely want to start out at and then tell me if you guys still want to make these changes. Oh and make sure you are not on company time while you are doing all this. I don't want you getting paid for it. That would change the experience.



So what you are saying is that "new" players already have carriers, well surprise: they are likely not new!
There are still so much ways to work around that and be good at logistics, one example: WH!
Dark Phox
Strategic Isks Investments Corporation
#2298 - 2014-10-02 03:13:38 UTC
Joey Zasa wrote:
Dark Phox wrote:
Remove please.




no, words mean something.......



No I made a mistake while posting on my tablet, and moved to my computer to type out my thoughts, here is the post:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5074271#post5074271
Guuldan
Perkone
Caldari State
#2299 - 2014-10-02 03:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Guuldan
Twisted I would like to thank CCP. We just won EVE and didn't have to do anything and now you have made the evil empire more.... Great Job! Twisted

Best Explanation:
Arrendis wrote:
I would like to say, as someone who flies subcaps and capitals, and as a member of the Evil Empire...

CCP, thank you.

With this change, you shift the balance of power even further toward defense. Jump timers in friendly space? No problem, just gate to the nearest station and dock up. Need to project power across multiple regions? Don't jump the ship, jumpclone the character to the nearest cache.

I do truly appreciate everyone else taking the time to exult in how hard this will hurt the CFC. The single most masochistically grind-happy group in the history of EVE, willing to burn down an entire region with torpedo bombers, surely won't be willing to take gates anywhere, right?

I mean, we already do, after all. JBs are convenient, but Elo loves to shoot them, so vOv.

And hey, whose space is right next door to the Forge? Oh, right, ours.

MOA, have fun resupplying 5ZXX w/a 5ly limit on JFs.

TRI, PASTA? Oh, we're going to enjoy starving you all.

Thank you, CCP. Your most sadistic band of masochists may not all realize it yet, but you've given us a wonderful present for Halloween: we'll get to be monsters all winter long.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2300 - 2014-10-02 03:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Eddiie wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm not going to spend hours of my life to simply move subcapitals around. I refuse to spend half a day simply to move minerals and my production goods to and from Jita. This is a game, not a second job.




this


Yes, cause Jita is the end-all be-all solo trading hub in which New Eden revolves around and yada yada yada...

...and here I recall ancient legends about how Jita once upon a time was less populated than a redneck farmland. Imagine that. It must mean that something happened which made Jita is what it is today. I DO so wonder what it could have been. Surely it must have been an event which is impossible to reproduce today.


Do you null bears really think CCP gives a toss that you can't insta warp to Jita and pollute local and overload the server. That is one of the things which probably swung them in favour of this decision.

This much entitled whining was not witnessed even in the days of the carebear miners of hulkageddon. You should really step back and hear yourselves whine as you've become what often criticize and despise. This really proves what we all know, that the majority of null seccers are no better, and if not even worse than the self entitled high sec carebears which have come straight from WOW.


It isn't about just Jita. Anywhere in empire that so far connected and served as a hub between the goods coming from and going to different kinds of space is pretty much inaccessible with these changes to move around any amount of production goods.

Under the current system, it already takes me two different pilots making multiple jumps. Nobody directly jumps into Jita from null, educate yourself and learn about null logistics. With these proposed changes, you would need more characters, more midpoints and on top of everything, time you would spend wasting staring at timers.

You obviously do not live in the null (or you do, and a village somewhere is missing their ~special~ person), so have fun when a) When hemorrhaging of subscribers intensifies even more after this day and EVE gets even more unpopulated b) When this starts to affect availability of goods and prices. Surely you will enjoy the circlejerk you will have with a whopping 5000 people online at weekend prime time until CCP decides to pull the plug.