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Prototype: Dojos

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Ais Hellia
Jita Honor Industries Union
#261 - 2014-09-25 16:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ais Hellia
Querns wrote:
[quote=baltec1][quote=Querns][quote=baltec1]


Dojos don't add anything new to Eve in this regard.


advanced dojos can add tools of auto-checking point values, restricted fits and implants allowed into battleground and other AT instruments. sticking to simple 1vs1, it is a useless tool of course
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2014-09-25 16:01:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.



Nice appeal to emotion and logical fallacy, you are obviously biased because your corporation is into "non-consensual" pvp.

You forgot that people that go/live in null or in the fw warzone won't magically disappear but having to roam for hours to find good fights is terrible for the game it lowers the player retention and give them no short term objectives, people "poaching" them to brave newbies and rvb doesn't help.

This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.


In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted.

This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time.


He really doesn't get it. The big blue doughnut has killed EvE and is "utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets" will continue to remain as bored as they are now. This will give your entire group of line members something to actually do while the rest of you sit on overturned chairs and stroke each other's ego.

And p.s. FW won't die. It has the most content in the game with system constantly pushing 2k kills/day for almost the last 2 years bc we actually fight for and defend our systems instead of hide behind timers and tidi blue ball fest. But in moments where it's hard to find something that isn't linked garmur faggotry or Razor/Snuff/angry Russians/etc style of blobbing this would fun to quickly bounce over to and get a few fights to keep the skills honed.

Keep wearing those blinders Baltec1, maybe they'll cone off and you'll remember how fun EvE used to be when there was constant content of all forms going on

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Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#263 - 2014-09-25 16:03:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.

I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.


No, no you don't, you have ways to gank people within a setup, just like being docked dojos aren't part of that setup.

Do you also complain about not being to gank the AT teams?

I have a Ph.D
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#264 - 2014-09-25 16:04:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Querns wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

This thing is not compatible with the sandbox in its current state.

Neither is Singularity, and yet Eve seems to be okay despite this. How are dojos any different than logging onto Singularity and doing the same thing?


Singularity has no impact on the main (Tranq hosted) game. Dojos on singularity or duality, fine, not on Tranquility.

You all are missing the point.

If I want to engage in consequence free PvP, I have an option to do so already. Your arguments are that adding dojos would magick into existence a way to have consequence free PvP, an option that has never been available in Eve before. I am saying that this option already exists, and people are already partaking of it. (Albeit with triage-supported vindicators -- something that the point system and manual, real-world goods stocking of dojos would handily defeat, I might add!)

You can't just segment off Singularity from your argument and pretend it doesn't exist while simultaneously decrying the addition of non-interdictable, low-to-no-consequence PvP. This is the silliest form of myopia.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#265 - 2014-09-25 16:05:16 UTC
Instead of fighting on tranquility, more and more people are opting to fight on Singularity. Regardless of whether or not assets are copied over, this is, effectively, a second shard.

Even larger groups are using it, apparently, to hold their own contests. (see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=361122 )

The difference between that and a Dojo, is that with the Dojo, actual Tranquility assets are destroyed in the process, just like the AT.

Moving contests and tournaments to Singularity is apparently growing in popularity, yet people are crying chicken little over a game mechanic that would bring that asset destruction back to the primary universe.

Sure, scrap the Dojo's, but you have no right to complain when Singularity is reborn into a consentual-PvP server.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#266 - 2014-09-25 16:06:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else.


So the industry expansion should somehow pander to every single other part of eve, same for nullsec change right? They should also pander to people that run l4 missions in hs, somehow?

Try to make sense, or you know you could deal with the fact that CCP is adding something to the game that you don't like, HTFU like we say in eve. Roll

I have a Ph.D
Torneach Structor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#267 - 2014-09-25 16:08:34 UTC
I have my reservations about this.

But as an alliance- or corp-created structure that is only anchorable in Low or Null, I think it would be fine to have then.

I think that way you still keep it exclusively as player-run content, there is still risk involved, the owners need to protect their arena, and people won't be able to just hang around in hisec to jump into these things on a whim.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#268 - 2014-09-25 16:08:48 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I have had this move pulled on me before and it was disastrous to that game. I do not want the same to happen here.



Nice appeal to emotion and logical fallacy, you are obviously biased because your corporation is into "non-consensual" pvp.

You forgot that people that go/live in null or in the fw warzone won't magically disappear but having to roam for hours to find good fights is terrible for the game it lowers the player retention and give them no short term objectives, people "poaching" them to brave newbies and rvb doesn't help.

This is a sandbox, your way to play is not the only way to play deal with it and adapt brobro.


In every single game that has added arenas the PvP in all other areas was sucked into them. The more more that join the arenas the fewer targets there are to hunt so more people join the arenas and we end up with a runaway effect untill we have everyone in arenas. This has happened in every single game that has added them and will happen in this one too. FW will die, RvB will die and null will also be impacted.

This is a terrible thing to have on Tranq and always will be. This thing is as Un-EVE as it gets and is utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets will get bored with arenas after the same length of time.


He really doesn't get it. The big blue doughnut has killed EvE and is "utterly incompatible with EVE core gameplay. It will not add more players to the game and the same people who get bored with hunting for targets" will continue to remain as bored as they are now. This will give your entire group of line members something to actually do while the rest of you sit on overturned chairs and stroke each other's ego.

And p.s. FW won't die. It has the most content in the game with system constantly pushing 2k kills/day for almost the last 2 years bc we actually fight for and defend our systems instead of hide behind timers and tidi blue ball fest. But in moments where it's hard to find something that isn't linked garmur faggotry or Razor/Snuff/angry Russians/etc style of blobbing this would fun to quickly bounce over to and get a few fights to keep the skills honed.

Keep wearing those blinders Baltec1, maybe they'll cone off and you'll remember how fun EvE used to be when there was constant content of all forms going on


It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.

The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.
Sydon Audeles
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2014-09-25 16:09:45 UTC
I appreciate that you put in the work to demo this, but I think it's pretty fundamentally antithetical to what EVE is about. It's another way to lower the risk of PVP and remove people from interacting with the universe, even for a short amount of time, and that's moving in the wrong direction. You want to honor 1v1 at a safe? Go for it. That's how my own alliance has done in-house events in the past. And if someone wanders through and scans us down, that's more content, that's not A Bad Thing. This adds a new level of exploitability and complexity to create a system for dueling that isn't needed.

Specific complaints with the stated implementation: teleporting from station to anywhere is bad. You should have to undock. "Click a menu button to teleport to content" is riding too close to theme park MMO land. Also, having a perfectly safe deadspace pocket. If there's a sig and I scan it down, I can follow the acceleration gate and catch the guy if he didn't warp off in time. Presumably I will not be able to land at this dojo and use it to follow the guy into the pocket, meaning he is perfectly safe in space. That should never happen in EVE.

I'm happy that you guys let us know so early in the process that you were talking about this, and if it helps you in your further Alliance Tournament implementations, great. But I'm honestly hoping the result is that you get an overwhelming response of "we don't want this" and you're able to drop the idea and move on to more awesome ideas without feeling like you wasted too much effort here.

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2014-09-25 16:10:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So its not sandbox then is it?


Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT?

Jenn aSide wrote:

We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).


I don't expect anything from it when I go roam for hours, same here but thanks for the logical fallacy and generalization (pro-tip : people have been soloing for years).

Also thanks for your opinion, funny how all the people complaining about this are not part of the target demographic.

ayyy lmao


The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else.

For someone who doesn't PVP or care about it you sure are vocal about everyone conforming to your own vision of EvE (hey Baltec alt). Your eve is not my eve and it will never be. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game. There are countless eve players who don't enjoy jumping into a camp with triage carriers on standby. There are countless people who would love to run gambling rings and tournament chains. This is the perfect situation and tool that has bee requested to add a completely whole new level of organized player content. Just because you can't be a giant ******* and **** in someone's Cheerios you're getting all upset. How much more selfish can you be.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#271 - 2014-09-25 16:10:20 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.

I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.


No, no you don't, you have ways to gank people within a setup, just like being docked dojos aren't part of that setup.

Do you also complain about not being to gank the AT teams?


This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox.
Dave Stark
#272 - 2014-09-25 16:11:39 UTC
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#273 - 2014-09-25 16:12:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.


Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#274 - 2014-09-25 16:13:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox.


I can't bomb your nullsec assets so it's not a sandbox, I can't blob the AT teams so it's not a sandbox, I can't kill people in station so it's not a sandbox, I can run pve missions so it's not a sandbox, etc

If you think that eve stopped being a sandbox because of stuff like AT then maybe eve isn't the right game for you, HTFU.


I have a Ph.D
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#275 - 2014-09-25 16:15:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.


"Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you

HTFU

I have a Ph.D
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#276 - 2014-09-25 16:16:36 UTC
Yeah, arena season 1 finaly on the PTR. I hope we gonna get a nice mount :D

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
Dave Stark
#277 - 2014-09-25 16:17:19 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.


Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.


you may have slightly missed the point.

world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added.

eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#278 - 2014-09-25 16:17:28 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.


Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.


SWG and WoW are two very big examples. Then we have Tamriel, an EVE like game that imploded when they catered to the instant gratification mob.
Dave Stark
#279 - 2014-09-25 16:18:12 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.


"Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you

HTFU


i haven't once said that, but you carry on thinking i did.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#280 - 2014-09-25 16:19:09 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

This arena would not let us enter it. So yes, it stops our sandbox.


I can't bomb your nullsec assets so it's not a sandbox, I can't blob the AT teams so it's not a sandbox, I can't kill people in station so it's not a sandbox, I can run pve missions so it's not a sandbox, etc

If you think that eve stopped being a sandbox because of stuff like AT then maybe eve isn't the right game for you, HTFU.




1. yes you can

2. AT has nothing at all to do with what happens on tranq

3. what has this to do with anything?

Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.