These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3821 - 2014-09-03 16:12:50 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not seeing the analogy...losing a competition is one thing.
And losing a PvP encounter is the exact same thing.


Sure...when its a competition, and the winner actually benefits in winning. Blowing up empty ships, pods, etc....Just to cause grief does not benefit the part doing the killing.

mechanic benefit? no, there's none. but the game in still intended to allow players to do that. players have found a reason to do that. we call this the metagame.

a person who loses a freighter. suffered a minor drawback in a competitive computer game.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3822 - 2014-09-03 16:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not seeing the analogy...losing a competition is one thing.
And losing a PvP encounter is the exact same thing.


Sure...when its a competition, and the winner actually benefits in winning. Blowing up empty ships, pods, etc....Just to cause grief does not benefit the part doing the killing.


Define benefit.

What's beneficial for you may not be beneficial for others. I know it's difficult for you to comprehend the meaning of 'objective' and sometimes, the objectives of others might seem alien to you, so pay very close attention now, because your continued ignorance, while amusing for us, is harmful only to you.

If I'm a freighter manufacturer, and I'm not selling any freighters, I might realise it's because they're not in demand.

In order to create that demand, I decide to blow a few up.

They can be empty freighters because the cost of the gank fleet is still less than what I'd be selling the victims new freighters for.

Anything they're carrying is spoils of war for the gank fleet.

I know all that's going to go over your head. I know, deep down, that you wanna be angry at everyone and just declare that ganking empty freighters can only ever be for the purpose of griefing, because it helps validate your unjustified hatred and anger and jealousy that you feel for your betters, which is virtually everyone else that's ever played EVE, but at the end of the day, you're a moron that knows nothing about the game, and I can't help you with that. Additionally, CCP have already addressed all of this stating that it's working as intended.

Capiche?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3823 - 2014-09-03 16:15:06 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destroyed is the not the same as Dropped.
If that much is destroyed, you can bet that a fair portion is dropped as well.

You keep repeating the lie of non-profit; you keep failing to prove it, further demonstrating the fact that you have to lie to even appear as if you had an argument (which turns out to be irrelevant anyway).
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3824 - 2014-09-03 16:16:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destroyed is the not the same as Dropped.
If that much is destroyed, you can bet that a fair portion is dropped as well.

You keep repeating the lie of non-profit; you keep failing to prove it, further demonstrating the fact that you have to lie to even appear as if you had an argument (which turns out to be irrelevant anyway).


Not enough dropped to cover the losses. Look at CODE's P/L - close to 400 billion raised, but only 10 billion in the treasury. Where is the profit here? The thing is a massive isk loser.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3825 - 2014-09-03 16:18:45 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destroyed is the not the same as Dropped.
If that much is destroyed, you can bet that a fair portion is dropped as well.

You keep repeating the lie of non-profit; you keep failing to prove it, further demonstrating the fact that you have to lie to even appear as if you had an argument (which turns out to be irrelevant anyway).


Not enough dropped to cover the losses. Look at CODE's P/L - close to 400 billion raised, but only 10 billion in the treasury. Where is the profit here? The thing is a massive isk loser.


This is the part where he assumes that isk is the one and only driving force of EVE online and no one ever just enjoys themselves regardless of the cost.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3826 - 2014-09-03 16:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destroyed is the not the same as Dropped.
If that much is destroyed, you can bet that a fair portion is dropped as well.

You keep repeating the lie of non-profit; you keep failing to prove it, further demonstrating the fact that you have to lie to even appear as if you had an argument (which turns out to be irrelevant anyway).


Not only that, there's a strange viewpoint that things need to be done for a profit.

Some of the best fights I've had were epic whelps in swarms of T1 frigs. Profit? No. Fun? HELL YES.

Maybe I'm just one of those oddballs who plays for fun and not ill conceived ideas that space-money somehow matters.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3827 - 2014-09-03 16:19:26 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not enough dropped to cover the losses
Prove it.

Quote:
close to 400 billion raised, but only 10 billion in the treasury. Where is the profit here?
We already know that you don't understand the concept of “profit”. You don't have to demonstrate it again. You just showed where the profit was.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3828 - 2014-09-03 16:19:46 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
oh god, he's awake again.

this is tame, do you remember this dirtbird?

It's not so much that he's wrong that bothers me. I can accept wrong. It's that he's so damned prolific in his wrongness that he's shitting up the forums and burying all sensible debate with the unrelenting torrents of his wrongness. It's simply unfair to those who can differentiate their heads from a hole in the ground... their words are being buried by the relentless torrent of dreck.

hahaha yep that's the guy ralph linked
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3829 - 2014-09-03 16:20:39 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not seeing the analogy...losing a competition is one thing.
And losing a PvP encounter is the exact same thing.


Sure...when its a competition, and the winner actually benefits in winning. Blowing up empty ships, pods, etc....Just to cause grief does not benefit the part doing the killing.


Define benefit.

What's beneficial for you may not be beneficial for others. I know it's difficult for you to comprehend the meaning of 'objective' and sometimes, the objectives of others might seem alien to you, so pay very close attention now, because your continued ignorance, while amusing for us, is harmful only to you.

If I'm a freighter manufacturer, and I'm not selling any freighters, I might realise it's because they're not in demand.

In order to create that demand, I decide to blow a few up.

They can be empty freighters because the cost of the gank fleet is still less than what I'd be selling the victims new freighters for.

Anything they're carrying is spoils of war for the gank fleet.

I know all that's going to go over your head. I know, deep down, that you wanna be angry at everyone and just declare that ganking empty freighters can only ever be for the purpose of griefing, because it helps validate your unjustified hatred and anger and jealousy that you feel for your betters, which is virtually everyone else that's ever played EVE, but at the end of the day, you're a moron that knows nothing about the game, and I can't help you with that. Additionally, CCP have already addressed all of this stating that it's working as intended.

Capiche?


I don't consider the mere infliction of pain on other people to be a "benefit" to anyone. Your economics knowledge is rather poor, but I will address your points regardless. Blowing up a few freighters, especially with the tight margins in the ship building business, will not generate enough economic value to justify the costs of the ganks - not even close. Plus many of the victims will just quit the game, or stop hauling, rather than buy new ships. And I'm not angry at all, none of my ships have been destroyed. I do sympathize though with the numerous players who are subjected to purposeless violence just for the purpose of angering/humiliating them and then putting it on minerbumping.com

And as for being a "moron who knows nothing about the game," I think that adequately describes yourself.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3830 - 2014-09-03 16:21:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not enough dropped to cover the losses
Prove it.

Quote:
close to 400 billion raised, but only 10 billion in the treasury. Where is the profit here?
We already know that you don't understand the concept of “profit”. You don't have to demonstrate it again. You just showed where the profit was.


Blowing up empty ships is not a profitable activity.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3831 - 2014-09-03 16:22:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
This is the part where he assumes that isk is the one and only driving force of EVE online and no one ever just enjoys themselves regardless of the cost.

wallet simulator online can be compared to a cardboard puzzle

you waste a whole lot of time on making it bigger, and once you're done there's nothing to do but take it all apart again

unless you're one of those people that glues their puzzles together which frankly is the weirdest damn thing
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3832 - 2014-09-03 16:22:28 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Blowing up empty ships is not a profitable activity.
Prove it.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3833 - 2014-09-03 16:23:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Blowing up empty ships is not a profitable activity.
Prove it.


Compare the cost involved in blowing up an empty freighter (at least 250 mil, usually significantly more than that) to the profit involved ( some % chance of a new freighter sale, at a paper thing margin).

Result - loss.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3834 - 2014-09-03 16:24:27 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
many of the victims will just quit the game, or stop hauling, rather than buy new ships. And I'm not angry at all, none of my ships have been destroyed.


yeah i chuck away every fps i buy the first time i get shot too
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3835 - 2014-09-03 16:24:32 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
This is the part where he assumes that isk is the one and only driving force of EVE online and no one ever just enjoys themselves regardless of the cost.

wallet simulator online can be compared to a cardboard puzzle

you waste a whole lot of time on making it bigger, and once you're done there's nothing to do but take it all apart again

unless you're one of those people that glues their puzzles together which frankly is the weirdest damn thing


And yet minerbumping.com is basically a compilation of people infuriated about having their ships blown up. Explain.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3836 - 2014-09-03 16:25:14 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Compare the cost involved in blowing up an empty freighter (at least 250 mil, usually significantly more than that) to the profit involved ( some % chance of a new freighter sale, at a paper thing margin).
Ok. So it's very profitable.
You were supposed to prove the opposite.

Was this failure because you still don't understand the concept of profit or something more fundamental?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3837 - 2014-09-03 16:25:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
This is the part where he assumes that isk is the one and only driving force of EVE online and no one ever just enjoys themselves regardless of the cost.

wallet simulator online can be compared to a cardboard puzzle

you waste a whole lot of time on making it bigger, and once you're done there's nothing to do but take it all apart again

unless you're one of those people that glues their puzzles together which frankly is the weirdest damn thing


And yet minerbumping.com is basically a compilation of people infuriated about having their ships blown up. Explain.

some people are sore losers vOv
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3838 - 2014-09-03 16:28:34 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And yet minerbumping.com is basically a compilation of people infuriated about having their ships blown up. Explain.

some people are sore losers vOv

the fact that some reality-impaired players just can't deal doesn't mean changes need to be made

i've had people from fw losing their cool at me for being in their complex. when i was pie, friendly, and enemy. i don't see fw being changed for that.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3839 - 2014-09-03 16:29:27 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Destroyed is the not the same as Dropped.
If that much is destroyed, you can bet that a fair portion is dropped as well.

You keep repeating the lie of non-profit; you keep failing to prove it, further demonstrating the fact that you have to lie to even appear as if you had an argument (which turns out to be irrelevant anyway).


Not only that, there's a strange viewpoint that things need to be done for a profit.

Some of the best fights I've had were epic whelps in swarms of T1 frigs. Profit? No. Fun? HELL YES.

Maybe I'm just one of those oddballs who plays for fun and not ill conceived ideas that space-money somehow matters.


Exactly play for fun. If grinding ISK is you're idea of fun then keep trucking but many PVP pilots idea of fun is blowing stuff up. ISK profit not needed to have fun.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3840 - 2014-09-03 16:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
afkalt wrote:


Not only that, there's a strange viewpoint that things need to be done for a profit.


I think it's a 'cover lie' ie a lie present in an argument with the sole purpose of making a person with an extremest view seem outwardly reasonable. The extremist view being hidden here is the "anti-ganking' sides dislike of (and wish to see the banning of) non-consensual pvp in EVE.

They can't just say "high sec should be pvp free, non-combat ships should be immune to aggression and wars should not exist unless mutually agree'd" and such because they know how radical and wacky that is, so they say "well, if it has to be possible it should ONLY be possible under these circumstances, and see, I'm being reasonable here".

It comes in forms other than "ganking must be profitable in order to be legitimate". I've seen people say that ganking should not be possible except if the ganeker puts up as much money to gank as is being ganked (ie the only way a jump Freighter should be able to be killed is if the gankers bring 7 billion isk worth of ganking ships so ganking isn't profitable).

The two things seem different (ganking not allowed unless profitable vs ganking should not be profitable), but that are actually the exact same thing ie "ganking must have a reason acceptable to ME to be legitimate, and since I will always find it illegitimate, CCP should abolish balance it in a way I like".