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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

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Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#61 - 2014-09-03 12:25:15 UTC
It's nothing to do with not being able to afford the Pos and array, it's more about recouping the investment in skill time and 100m+ isk investment.

Atm I refine both to sell the excess and use some myself to manufacture crystals, drones and other modules.

Suppose I compressed everything I mined and made (maybe) an extra 1m isk per Mack load, that's over 100 full loads minimum to get back my investment. To compress everything I mine would also bring my industry to a halt as well resulting in lost income that I would also have to take into account.

No I don't mine 24/7. I work for a living and do other stuff in game as well, hell, trying to get back my investment would be as bad as mining to plex...I don't do that either.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#62 - 2014-09-03 12:36:22 UTC
Valedictio wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
H3llHound wrote:
I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.

An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.

A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral.


Really, there's nothing wrong with compression as it is.

The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable).

Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.


The current problem is a massive change to Industry and everyone is still catching up/learning,

It may surprise you to learn that most Miners will mine what makes them the most Isk/Hr.

If Mining/refineing is making them more Isk/Hr than either selling Ore or Compressing to stock a market then what would you expect them to do, ask yourself what would you do ?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with compression Mechanics as they stand, Whineing and complaining that XYZ Compressed ore isn't available simply means that nobody considers it worthwhile at the moment.

give it some time and supply may even catch up with demand.



But thyey dont.

Trit sells for 5.2, the trit in veldspar is worth 5.6
pye sells for 10.9, the pyerite in scordite is worth 11.8
mexallon sells for 57, the mexallon in plag worth for 61, in kernite it is worth 72
omber sells for 126, in omber its worth 110(okay omber is too low value there we go), in kernite its worth 134
nocxium is worth 685, in pyroxes its worth 768.

And that is what max refine bonus etc, someone who refines these compressed ores in a lowsec station is paying a hell of a lot more for them per unit.

So yeah compressing is worth a hell of a lot more then refining. But miners dont seem to get that
Prophet Tier
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-09-03 13:00:26 UTC
Querns wrote:
1) Add a station compression service. This removes the barrier of entry that a POS requires, and makes compression ubiquitous for all. This does not obviate the use of the POS module -- a savvy miner might set up a POS in a system without a station, and use the POS compression module to help keep their industry well lubricated.


No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."


Querns wrote:
3) Consolidate ore variants to a single type of compressed ore. For example, compressing Concentrated Veldspar and Dense Veldspar would output Compressed Veldspar. Tweaking the input amounts to correspond to the higher amount of minerals contained in the ore variants would make this work.


This sounds like a good idea.


Querns wrote:
If any other folks have any ideas as to how to incentivize ore compression, please feel free to post.


They just changed the Medium Intensive Refinery into a Compression Array and made it available in high sec. This literally solves the problem completely. I just did my due diligence and a trial run netting 7% (buying from sell and selling to buy; worst case scenario).
Prophet Tier
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-09-03 13:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Prophet Tier
Firvain wrote:
But thyey dont.

Trit sells for 5.2, the trit in veldspar is worth 5.6
pye sells for 10.9, the pyerite in scordite is worth 11.8
mexallon sells for 57, the mexallon in plag worth for 61, in kernite it is worth 72
omber sells for 126, in omber its worth 110(okay omber is too low value there we go), in kernite its worth 134
nocxium is worth 685, in pyroxes its worth 768.

And that is what max refine bonus etc, someone who refines these compressed ores in a lowsec station is paying a hell of a lot more for them per unit.

So yeah compressing is worth a hell of a lot more then refining. But miners dont seem to get that


They don't need to understand the intricacies of null sec industry. Adjust your compressed buy prices to reflect YOUR advantage and the market will fill the void by increasing supply. Believe it or not, high sec pubbies don't have access to Minmatar outposts and most of their competition don't either.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#65 - 2014-09-03 13:09:57 UTC
Etsalo Isnev wrote:
Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go.

However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore.



At the risk of being just the lauging stock of all you mega-experienced people, I'll vent my ideas on the current ore compression...

From the experience I have in New Eden up till now, I learnt: "If something is cumbersome to do, it's actualy a business opportunity"

If null-sec industrialists have trouble finding compressed ore, they need to dig a bit deeper. Search hi-sec indy corps, help them in setting up an ore compression system, provide reliable compressed ore buying services. As I see it, hi-sec indy corps can earn good money compressing the ore they mine, sell it to market or dedicated null buyer and buy minerals for their manufacturing needs. Haven't done the math yet, but thinking that it's a profitable way to go...

If it's difficult to do, there's money to be made, that's my opinion...

And all the suggestions of providing a station compression service, modifying the orca to compress, in my view are just "an easy fix for a market niche". I'd say, don't do it. One needs to adapt to changing, and see it as an opportunity, not an annoyance...



That is enough from you mister

You are making sense

No one will listen to you
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#66 - 2014-09-03 16:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Firvain
Prophet Tier wrote:
Firvain wrote:
But thyey dont.

Trit sells for 5.2, the trit in veldspar is worth 5.6
pye sells for 10.9, the pyerite in scordite is worth 11.8
mexallon sells for 57, the mexallon in plag worth for 61, in kernite it is worth 72
omber sells for 126, in omber its worth 110(okay omber is too low value there we go), in kernite its worth 134
nocxium is worth 685, in pyroxes its worth 768.

And that is what max refine bonus etc, someone who refines these compressed ores in a lowsec station is paying a hell of a lot more for them per unit.

So yeah compressing is worth a hell of a lot more then refining. But miners dont seem to get that


They don't need to understand the intricacies of null sec industry. Adjust your compressed buy prices to reflect YOUR advantage and the market will fill the void by increasing supply. Believe it or not, high sec pubbies don't have access to Minmatar outposts and most of their competition don't either.



Those prices are with OUR advantage, remove the 86% refine thing and those prices go even higher...
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#67 - 2014-09-03 16:14:07 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.

Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.

It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it.


I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts.

But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer.

However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#68 - 2014-09-03 16:22:31 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:

I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts.

But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer.

However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.


In which cases is it not possible for small corps to online a POS when they need it. I can't think of any?

Baddest poster ever
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2014-09-03 16:32:36 UTC
Prophet Tier wrote:

No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."

this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was

it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#70 - 2014-09-03 16:37:19 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:

I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts.

But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer.

However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason.


In which cases is it not possible for small corps to online a POS when they need it. I can't think of any?


If you get wardecced and your POS is offline, it's easy to get blowed up -- and if you're under wardec, your offline POS would be a dandy spot to set up an ambush when you come by to online it.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#71 - 2014-09-03 16:41:12 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:

If you get wardecced and your POS is offline, it's easy to get blowed up -- and if you're under wardec, your offline POS would be a dandy spot to set up an ambush when you come by to online it.



An ambush, during the 24 hour waiting period to start a war.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Prophet Tier
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-09-03 17:04:54 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Prophet Tier wrote:

No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."

this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was

it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.


Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate.

Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-09-03 17:27:11 UTC
Prophet Tier wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Prophet Tier wrote:

No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."

this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was

it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.


Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate.

Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU.

Ah, yes, the vaunted courier contract to a POS. Please, elucidate on how you hire Red Frog and PushX to deliver materiel to your POS.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2014-09-03 17:44:25 UTC
Prophet Tier wrote:

Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate.

Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU.

as i have explained numerous times to people, such as yourself, who have not thought this through: it does not

the freighter goes from the station to the pos shield and back

it is never in a gankable spot. it is completely solo activity. hauling between systems is an activity that adds to the game. this does not

the caliber of thought deployed against me is the clearest sign that i am correct
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2014-09-03 17:45:23 UTC
There is an awful lot of grr-goon in this thread.

I am repeating my earlier, slightly off-topic, argument- I think the fundamental issue breaks down to nullsec being 100% reliant on high sec for the minerals they need. Compression itself works, and if high sec miners don't like math, they're going to refine their ores for a loss.

To clarify, we aren't just "waiting around" for high sec miners to mine low end ore for us. We have miners actively stripping belts in many systems across our space, yet we are still direly short on minerals we need for (all types of) production. At the same time, we are flooding the local market with a surplus of high end minerals, because that's the bulk of what nullsec ore sites provide to us.

The suggested changes to compression are to encourage people to compress their ore and sell it in this fashion. As noted several times in this thread, compressed ore is already selling for much more than the raw minerals (and it's cheaper to move to market!). If I were a "grr goon" type, I would be more on board with compression changes rather than the much needed fix of revisiting nullsec ore sites. If we're buying ore from high sec, that means that our isk is going directly into your pockets. The result of which are minerals that we use in wars against other empires in null. How is that a bad thing?

Dom Zimbio
TRANSCENDENT.
#76 - 2014-09-03 17:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dom Zimbio
I love it. Empire corps can go suck it, go into null sec and mine.

I don't own a Rorqual so having a compression array saves me from hauling from my system to next door to refine it. Before I had to drop freight containers inside my site and mine until its full and move to the next container. Then when I'm finished I usually had 12 cans or so sitting in site. So I had to do 3 freighter trips to next door and refine it to achieve 100% refining. With cruis, I can easily fit it all my hard days work in my corp hangar because corp hangars only have max volume of 3mil. 3mil m3 ore compressed to 12K compressed ore. Also with my intensive array sitting next to my compression array, I just drag and drop and now I have refined minerals. Even better if you place everything you need next to it like Capital Array, component array, saving you even more time. Intensive Array with perfect skills + implants yield you the same as a tier 2 upgrade minmatar station so you don't even need stations anymore, everything can be done in a pos.

Yields is also 5% more with expansion that's if you have perfect skills + implant. Even if you had near-perfect skills with no implant you would yield the same as before. With a Tier 3 station with 60% refine you yield 15% more than previous expansion.

Compression is so overpowered right now that I have calculated and tested to fit a titans compressed ore amount in an JF and supers in an orca. Took me weeks to find the correct amount of compressed ore to yield the exact m3 for supers & titans in compressed ore.

Now miners in null sec no longer have to sell in jita, alliances now are buying the ore off their corps and producing capitals at an incredible rate. So now alliances are dependent on their miners even more. No longer can you go to jita and buy 1mil units of some compressed module and reprocessed near your super pos and build a super. Now you have to either mine it yourself or buy the compressed ore from the locals.

Compressed ore market in empire. Really don't give a s*** about them, but for those that do, the inventory sucks because not many people utilize the compression array in empire and null sec alliances are no longer hauling them to jita. If more empire corps would have them then the amount/prices would balance out and their would be a steady flux of inventory with decent prices. Also the reason mineral prices have dropped is because null sec alliances no longer want their refined material. Its easier to haul 5 bil worth of compressed ore in your transport ship than making several freighter trips of reprocessed minerals. A solution to high sec miners is to stop reprocessing your ore, null sec alliances no longer want it. Either sell them in your system or find a corp that has one in their pos. Stop being a lone wolf miner, if you can't afford it join a corp. I bet 50% of compressed ore in jita is actually being sold from those null sec corps that don't build with their ore.

Null sec mining has gone up 300%, except goons space (now we know who's been buying compressed modules)

My final statement is Keep up or Shut up. Reminds me today of today's society, efficiency wins. Also should mention to newbies, never travel with a full freighter worth of compressed ore, you'll wind up the one of the highest in lost amount in a single ship. Give you one of my secrets, You can fit a carrier worth of compressed ore in your Transport Ship, only requires 52k m3. However I no longer need to go to empire anymore now.


Summary:
Compression so overpowered Cool - supers in orca's, titans in JF - please don't nerf
5% more yield with perfect skills + implant with tier 2 station or intensive array in pos
Mine in Null sec
Stop reprocessing your ore in Empire unless you want to be at a loss in profit
Join a Corp if you can't afford to maintain a pos with compression array, make friends, hate it when people play MMO's that have no corps/guilds etc. This isn't call of duty, where you are one of those people with no mic (Xbox Game system comes with a mic)
Tolkaz Khamsi
Empire Reclamation Services
#77 - 2014-09-03 18:24:00 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Grace Chang wrote:

You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.

go try to buy a reasonable amount of compressed mexallon and isogen at any price whatsoever


I think you mean compressed kernite or omber, don't you?

Anyway, Omber is stupid and nobody mines it, so let's forget that for now.

Kernite is good -- having a good portion of Mex and Iso -- but if you're mining for profit Veldspar is better because it's easier to mine and is more valuable in an ISK/hr sense. Veld is the best ore to mine for ISK, as I've said before. It may be that the compressed kernite supply hasn't yet bulked up because not many highsec miners go after it in quantity.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#78 - 2014-09-03 18:29:31 UTC
Querns wrote:
Prophet Tier wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Prophet Tier wrote:

No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."

this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was

it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.


Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate.

Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU.

Ah, yes, the vaunted courier contract to a POS. Please, elucidate on how you hire Red Frog and PushX to deliver materiel to your POS.


No, you missed the point.

Retar Aveymone wrote:
it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone.


Red Frog and Push X exist. Their existence proves that there are a significant number of players in high sec who want to make a little bit of mindless isk while flying freighters around. These are the perfect people to become ore middlemen. We need to get some of them to buy small towers and compression arrays, buy ore from miners, and haul the compressed ores to market hubs-when they would otherwise be flying empty.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#79 - 2014-09-03 20:18:49 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
There is an awful lot of grr-goon in this thread.

I am repeating my earlier, slightly off-topic, argument- I think the fundamental issue breaks down to nullsec being 100% reliant on high sec for the minerals they need. Compression itself works, and if high sec miners don't like math, they're going to refine their ores for a loss.

Because you are doing exactly what you always accuse High Sec of doing (When there is normally far less crying from high sec on the matter).
You have been caught being hypocrites and are now getting laughed at for it. It's not Grrr Goons, it's point and laugh at the fail goons day.

High Sec miners will adjust to Maths, patience little goonie, patience. And things will change. The Graphs already show that supply is starting to climb and demand starting to fall a little on Compressed ore. There is no reason to believe this won't continue.

Though also consider that maybe some of the High Sec miners are deliberately not selling you compressed ore because you have spent years belittling them and they don't want to help the Null Empires.

As for Null being utterly reliant on High (Well, if not on Ore, where else should Null be reliant on high since CCP themselves have said they never want any area of space to be 100% self sufficient), BS. You have 3* the systems High does (or is it 4*). All of those systems have belts that are at least equal to High Sec, if not more per day. High Sec does not have infinite respawning belts either. So if Null mined out all it's Asteroid Belts the same way high does, you would have a surplus of low ends.

The simple fact is you haven't adjusted to the fact belts are just as safe as your ore anoms these days, you still have an aversion to belt mining dating back to when grav sites were sigs so belts were more dangerous to mine. Talk about a failure to adapt.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2014-09-03 20:39:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
All of those systems have belts that are at least equal to High Sec, if not more per day. High Sec does not have infinite respawning belts either. So if Null mined out all it's Asteroid Belts the same way high does, you would have a surplus of low ends.


I would suggest that you actually go to nullsec and mine from a null belt before basing your argument on this statement. Belts in null are not at all like belts in highsec, and the low end roids pop in as little as one cycle. Additionally, these are still "top heavy", so we'd still have a surplus of high ends. So, no, you are incorrect.

Having appropriate sources of t1 minerals does not mean that nullsec would be 100% self-sufficient (or even close to it). It is asinine to argue that nullsec should be reliant on high sec for mexallon and isogen because you're afraid we'll be 100% self sufficient. If that is the case, refer to my earlier statement about our isk going into your pockets with compressed ores.

The supply of "compressed minerals" has in fact significantly changed since pre-crius. First off, items now only drop 50% of their mineral content- a flat nerf to mineral supply. More importantly, though, is that once ores are converted into minerals, they are permanently removed from the compressed market, and there is no way to convert them back to a compressed format without a SIGNIFICANT loss.

The people in this thread have effectively only said "HTFU" with response to our suggestions. We have had individual producers from other alliances come in and say that they're having an "easy time" supplying their personal production (using 12+ freighters, titans, etc). We are not trying to supply one producer with minerals; we are trying to build an entire market in our null space. CCP's recent expansions are pushing the emergence of markets outside of Jita and into low and null sec. This is simply not possible on any meaningful scale with the current state of compression and lack of basic resources in our local environment.

Forcing products to go through Jita is hurting high sec the most- it's amusing that the vast majority of you are missing that. When most production flows through one location, you're forced to compete with all other producers and sell at the lowest possible prices. As markets spread out of one central location, localized markets will further develop and have their own regional supply and demand with higher average prices than if funneled through Jita. But, hey, Grr Goons we just want to break everything, right?