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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

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Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-09-03 02:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eodp Ellecon
There are several issues that are complicating the discussion.

3rd party hauling access to POS and proportions are off-kilter. If I can drop something into a Corp Hanger but not remove it due to roles there's no reason to not have a module that does the same, ie 'personal hanger' or Silo at POS. Yeah, I' guessing this is a code nightmare and akin to why BP's were 'simplified' and therefore will not get traction.


Skills needed to T2 mining crystals point to refining, not compression.
The lightly absurd solution would be akin to the recent Light and Medium Drone skills splits.

Skill for Refining.
Skill for Compression.
Toons that have Refining get a matching Compression. Still be a PITA for toons that plan on doing both, but oh well.

Tie ALL T2 mining crystals to lvl III of either (+ the specialization?), ie, you get T2 crystals to mine straight ores, lvl IV gives you compression / refining depending on your path according to the current Reprocessing -> Reprocessing Efficiency schedule.

Mercoxit is the bugger ore to resolve since it's the only one that needs Astrogeology V so you can fit the Deep Core mining lasers (at present you can refine it but not mine it at the same lvl of skilling). Perhaps drop the Deep Core requirement to Astrogeology IV for the mining lasers+Crystals, leaving V for Exhumers (allowing the lesser Procurer to fit it, while the T2 ships would still get better yield).



Ore grades and individual rock volumes are not as one would expect in null rock anoms, or belts for that matter. System upgrades / Industry index could also boost mining yields of ships in that system just as the Research-Manufacture bonuses do now in stations. This could stack on top of Fleet booster+ship skills.

Guns stop shooting when rats or pvp's pop so why in the world mining lasers need to finish upwards of a 3 minute cycle to realize the rock is gone is beyond comprehension.

While we're at it...when will be able to get refined ice products into a specialized cargo hold...either back into the Miasmos as Ice specialist or into a Kryos as the refined (admittedly refined mineral) hauler.

I realize that the OP is referencing ore distribution and volumes/+ores in various security lvls of EVE which is a Universe down view, while my post is a solo-miner up view.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-09-03 03:28:37 UTC
Perhaps if goons hadn't had such a long and successful campaign to crush hisec miners there would be more of them at a level to sell compressed ore?
Dont goons have huge space holdings? are they even mining it?
bit the hand that fed you a bit too hard it sounds like

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#43 - 2014-09-03 04:00:17 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Perhaps if goons hadn't had such a long and successful campaign to crush hisec miners there would be more of them at a level to sell compressed ore?
Dont goons have huge space holdings? are they even mining it?
bit the hand that fed you a bit too hard it sounds like

So we mine but with the amount's of ore in the ore belts that spawn off I-Hub upgrades its mainly noxcium zydrine and megacyte you get not the lowend's. Just ask theta who mines now many of them will admit to it now.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-09-03 04:04:41 UTC
HarlyQ wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Perhaps if goons hadn't had such a long and successful campaign to crush hisec miners there would be more of them at a level to sell compressed ore?
Dont goons have huge space holdings? are they even mining it?
bit the hand that fed you a bit too hard it sounds like

So we mine but with the amount's of ore in the ore belts that spawn off I-Hub upgrades its mainly noxcium zydrine and megacyte you get not the lowend's. Just ask theta who mines now many of them will admit to it now.

Can you get one of them to post some belt numbers? this thread is noticeably light on any semblance of average numbers of mineral compositions.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Lennvas
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-09-03 04:50:46 UTC
First of, I reallly like the new UI, makes a lot of stuff go faster.
Still, it would be great if the list of blueprints could be filtered by specific locations, eg I have some blueprints in a container because i dont use them currently, but they still show up. That blows up the list in the UI to the point where I use the normal inventory to accses the blueprints for work.
Sorting blueprints by containers would be something I really appreciate.
And simmiliar to this, can we please be enabled to rename divisions in corphangars? For the same purpose of organization that would be very helpfull.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#46 - 2014-09-03 04:59:43 UTC
This thread seems to have devolved into two camps yelling at each other.

The OP and others (most of whom seem to have the Goonswarm tag) saying that this is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Compression needs to be made as simple as possible, because high-sec miners are too stupid to do anything that takes more steps than click->refine. Also, we just got 20% better refineries than high sec, which means our minerals should be 25% cheaper than theirs.

The other camp is going, "Hooray, the Goons are having trouble building supercaps!" They also seem to be dancing around trying to avoid saying, "I found a new way to make isk flying a freighter around in high sec, being a middle-man between the miners and the capital producers." As Red Frog and Push-X have proven, there are plenty of people in high sec with freighters who will fly them around for easy brainless isk.

Personally, I think the mini-profession of ore wholesaler should exist. Maybe the market will settle at 15% (or so) higher prices for compressed ore than minerals, and the people in null sec don't get their full 20% price advantage. Just because slow adopters have caused supply problems in the first month does not mean compression needs to be completely changed again. (Yet.)

I also agree that the UI could help educate people. Currently when refining in an NPC station there are little numbers at the bottom: value of the ore on one side, value of the minerals on the other side. Add a profit number (subtract the one from the other). If the value of the ore is more than the value of the minerals, which it should be if the wholesalers are doing their jobs properly, put it in big red numbers, "If you push that button, you are losing isk!" I believe a large number of miners will stop and think, "Why is that?" which will lead them to discover compression.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-09-03 05:04:11 UTC
Shoogie wrote:
This thread seems to have devolved into two camps yelling at each other.

The OP and others (most of whom seem to have the Goonswarm tag) saying that this is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Compression needs to be made as simple as possible, because high-sec miners are too stupid to do anything that takes more steps than click->refine. Also, we just got 20% better refineries than high sec, which means our minerals should be 25% cheaper than theirs.


This is a pretty unfair representation of my stance. I don't think highsec miners are stupid; they're just fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. That stuff doesn't change overnight for anyone, regardless of their preferred home.

People are also harping on ore price -- I confess to not understand this point. Nowhere in my posts have I said that we want compressed ore to have no value-add or that we want it to be cheap. We just want it to be available, period. There is a huge supply deficit that hasn't been made up, and that is my concern.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#48 - 2014-09-03 05:05:43 UTC
Firvain wrote:
Ive got buy orders up in jita 24/7 and buying all the high sec ores. After 2 weeks of buying everything...

The biggest problem is that there just isnt enough ore moved in Jita market total. If i where to buy all the omber thats beeing traded over there I still wouldnt have enough omber. That is including Silvery omber and Golden omber.


There are two reasons you cannot get enough omber in Jita.

1) It does not spawn in Caldari space. Try a Gallente hub?
2) It has been among the worst isk/hr ores for years and years. Therefore, most miners mine everything else before the omber.

Neither of these are issues with ore compression.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-09-03 05:53:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grace Chang wrote:
Querns wrote:


A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer.
B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner.
C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.


to

A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not.

B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them.

C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way.

You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners.


You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.

Nullsec mining primarily occurs by way of gravimetric anomalies. These sites have a static ore composition of many types, and are generated by the Infrastructure hub. Once one of these sites is fully mined out, it respawns to be mined again.

The problem this produces is that in order to get more of the lowend minerals you need, you have to mine an absolute truckload of useless highends. Looking at the (slightly dated, but useful for this example) Bloodtear Industry Report, we can see that the composition of a Large gravimetric site (the most commonly mined site) contains the following composition:

http://i.imgur.com/24LTeL3.png (the forums don't really handle tabular data well so an image will have to suffice)

In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things. (Unlike what you may have heard, we don't believe in enslaving our line members.)

This is discounting the danger contained by mining in nullsec, but I'm willing to disregard this, as it's a separate issue (and one much less defensible at any rate.) I don't need it to prove my point.


You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx?

The large grav site as described yeilds approx 7 million M/3 of ore, which then compresses to 26,578 m/3 and refines (at 100% i haven't calculated to max refine in null station yet) to
Trit 39 808 750
Pyre 28 266 600
Mex 2 851 900
iso 1 225 200
nocx 455 700
zyd 672 250
mega 365 500

the Nocx comes from the Crokite, Hemorphite, jaspet and hedbergite in that order.
It appears that your arguement is "we dont want to mine the low ends in standard asteroid belts so mining and compression is broken"

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-09-03 06:02:34 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx?

No -- I meant the Omber. Nocx is a highend, and is cratering.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-09-03 06:23:40 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx?

No -- I meant the Omber. Nocx is a highend, and is cratering.


Then that leaves me a bit confused, you are mining omber just to get omber? i would have thought it about the mineral content?
400k omber yeilds
Trit 340 000
Pyre 136 000
Iso 340 000


"In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things."

in order to get 400k units of omber (240 000 m/3) you need to mulch through 6 825 000 m/3 of more valuable ores both by mineral content and isk values ?

Im not sure what the actual issue you were attempting to use Omber to hi-light.
Omber is the least valuable ore by m/3 and mineral content its absence is not particularly notable in compression markets.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-09-03 06:32:10 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Querns wrote:
[quote=Kusum Fawn]You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx?

in order to get 400k units of omber (240 000 m/3) you need to mulch through 6 825 000 m/3 of more valuable ores both by mineral content and isk values ?

You need to mulch through the 6.8 million m^3 of other stuff to get the anomaly to respawn. That's the issue -- nullsec can't just magick up a particular type of ore that it needs; it's forced to mine a bunch of unusable garbage in order to get the right mineral compositions to build basically anything.

This is sort of off topic, however; there's another thread at https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=370404 specifically about nullsec mining site compositions.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#53 - 2014-09-03 06:33:50 UTC
I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.

Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.

It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it.
Oxide Ammar
#54 - 2014-09-03 07:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
There are 2 issues hisec miners are facing right now, bear with me a moment while I explain and put yourself into hisec miners shoes here :

1- Ice mining pays off much more in terms of isk/hr if you compared it to ore mining. You have to park your orca and dozen of skiff s there and relog every 4 hrs and you profit more than mining 24/7 in ore belt. Since the changes they made to ice belts the prices of ice and fuel are keep rising. Tell me why I should leave ice mining and go back to ores to sell it for pennies just because null sec wants that ?

2- Logistics, there are many lone wolves miners out there, they mine and sell their ores in the same system they mined in, they don't have army of freighters nor POSes to compress this ore and ship it to Jita. They consider selling raw ore or refined minerals ( even at 50% stations with perfect skills) and not troubling themselves in logistics is their simplest way to make isk because they think they are making isk out from thin air and refining it 60% outpost or at 50% station are still consider same to them.


We repeatedly requested CCP to open POS services to public, let us rent our compression arrays and assembly arrays to the public. I think if they presented a hangar or array that can be anchor outside POS shields with UI simple enough to make non alliance players dump their materials and fees so they can use public services is good idea rather than slapping compression service to every hisec station out there. Roll

- creates content and conflicts between corps to acquire markets in their regions.
- pays fuel cost.
- logistics become a less of hassle and creates homogeneity between regions regarding flow of low end compressed ore/ice to main markets hubs.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Etsalo Isnev
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-09-03 07:59:38 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go.

However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore.



At the risk of being just the lauging stock of all you mega-experienced people, I'll vent my ideas on the current ore compression...

From the experience I have in New Eden up till now, I learnt: "If something is cumbersome to do, it's actualy a business opportunity"

If null-sec industrialists have trouble finding compressed ore, they need to dig a bit deeper. Search hi-sec indy corps, help them in setting up an ore compression system, provide reliable compressed ore buying services. As I see it, hi-sec indy corps can earn good money compressing the ore they mine, sell it to market or dedicated null buyer and buy minerals for their manufacturing needs. Haven't done the math yet, but thinking that it's a profitable way to go...

If it's difficult to do, there's money to be made, that's my opinion...

And all the suggestions of providing a station compression service, modifying the orca to compress, in my view are just "an easy fix for a market niche". I'd say, don't do it. One needs to adapt to changing, and see it as an opportunity, not an annoyance...
Valedictio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-09-03 09:12:47 UTC
Oh Dear, you mean to say that the miners that have been abused and targeted as subhuman pubbie scum are not doing what you want them to ?

HTFU ?

Adapt or Die ?

There is absoloutely nothing wrong with mining and reprocessing,

I also run a POS in empire which has a Compression Array, it's offline and barely used and I shall explain why.

Before in Happy Bunny Carebearland the industrious Miner would doze away while filling up with rocks of various sorts, then some nasty people came along and invented a party called Hulkageddon and the joyous process of ganking miners, CODE. ?

Miners aren't safe, Freighters aren't safe, routes to Trade Hubs are normally always camped.

When I do mine it is normally for what I or my Corps Want or Need, not to supply the whiney needs of Nullbears.

I consistantly see a lot of Omber Grav sites, and guess what ? I never bother with them as I DO NOT need the Isogen from them, I have more than an ample supply.

as for the whine about moving stuff, may I direct you towards 'MMO' ?

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome, otherwise GTFO and keep your stuff, I don't want it Big smile

and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.

Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
H3llHound
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-09-03 10:22:29 UTC
I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.

An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.

A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#58 - 2014-09-03 11:12:40 UTC
H3llHound wrote:
I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.

An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.

A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral.


Really, there's nothing wrong with compression as it is.

The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable).

Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Valedictio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-09-03 11:37:26 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
H3llHound wrote:
I believe that ore compression with an orca will really help the lack of compressed ore. To balance it out the compression would work like the old rorqual.

An active highslot module similar to the bastion one. Makes it immobile but gives a boost to tank/resists/drone damage maybe. It has a 2min cycle and at the beginning of each cycle it compresses a certain volume of ore. Enough to keep up with 5 hulks. Not enough for a huge mining op but enough for smaller groups and it significantly reduces hauling.

A bastioned Orca can protect miners from null rats or the random roaming neutral.


Really, there's nothing wrong with compression as it is.

The current problem is all the NPC-corp miners who still do the "mine -> refine -> sell to market" shtick, and refuse to change their gameplay (even if "just sell the damn ore" is actually more profitable).

Also, they're probably telling all the rookies that their way is the way to go.


The current problem is a massive change to Industry and everyone is still catching up/learning,

It may surprise you to learn that most Miners will mine what makes them the most Isk/Hr.

If Mining/refineing is making them more Isk/Hr than either selling Ore or Compressing to stock a market then what would you expect them to do, ask yourself what would you do ?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with compression Mechanics as they stand, Whineing and complaining that XYZ Compressed ore isn't available simply means that nobody considers it worthwhile at the moment.

give it some time and supply may even catch up with demand.



and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.

Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'
H3llHound
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-09-03 11:42:11 UTC
But it give those miners who give a damn about compression a lower bar of entry to provide compressed ore. That is why I wrote the orca would only support a handful miners with compression. If some refuse to change their habits so be it and to possibly convince them of changing requires that CCP raises the awareness about compression. And dont forget: Less hauling

Or ninja-mining ops with this orca and some prospects