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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Devils Embrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3341 - 2014-09-02 04:46:43 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I think its important to clear this up - let's examine the quote by CCP Falcon-

"CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive."
In other words, they share two characteristics with a law enforcement agency: they provide a deterrent and they are reactive. This does not mean that they are one.

The operative word missing is “other”. Be it “the same as any other law enforcement agency” or “as with any other police”. Without that word, they are not in the same class — they just have shared characteristics with the class. There's a reason why I said that your linguistic insight was insufficient and getting you into trouble. Words have meaning — a small word can make all the difference in the world.

Quote:
Concord is analogized to both a police force and a law enforcement agency - they are not just some arbitrary isk sink.
No. CONCORD's response (and the reason for that response) is simply compared with the law. They are an arbitrary cost enforcement mechanism — that's how they offer a deterrent.

Quote:
Literally, the sentence only makes sense if CONCORD is both a police force and a law enforcement agency - its literally unreadable otherwise.
Incorrect. The sentence makes sense if CONCORD is a cost enforcement mechanism that happens after a gank rather than before it: it creates a deterrent through punitive and reactive measures. As it happens, that is exactly what CONCORD is and what it does and why it does it. All without being a police force. Fancy that.

By the way, you do know that EVE has a police force, right? In fact, it has numerous police forces. They fight crime. They also have those characteristics by virtue of being within that class.



"other" is not a required word in that sentence. In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves." The fact that he did not say that strongly suggests that CONCORD is in fact viewed as a law enforcement agency (which is exactly what they do - enforce the laws, and punish criminals).


What I dont get is that you dont get how ******** what you're saying sounds? Do you know how policemen work? They dont show up right away, and 15 seconds is a hell of alot better than the 30 minutes to an hour in real life.

Tl;dr : Stop crying

It's like they usually say about fantasy MMO's and men playing female characters: "If I'm going to spend alot of time watching this character, it might as well have a good looking ass".
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3342 - 2014-09-02 04:47:55 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
i'll prefer to engage with other people who actually are looking for reasoned discussion.


That'd be a first.

Thus far all you have done is make hypocritical appeals to realism, lie about being a lawyer, and post the same repeatedly debunked nonsense since you showed up.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3343 - 2014-09-02 04:48:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


"other" is not a required word in that sentence. In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves." The fact that he did not say that strongly suggests that CONCORD is in fact viewed as a law enforcement agency (which is exactly what they do - enforce the laws, and punish criminals).


Stop twisting his words.

He said that concord are like police because they do not protect, they punish after the event has happened.


Ok, great. I'm fine with that. The key point is that CONCORD punish for breaking the law- they are not just some "isk sink mechanic." They are an intelligent organization that monitors compliance with the law in highsec, and punishes any disobedience. Is that fair?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3344 - 2014-09-02 04:49:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
"other" is not a required word in that sentence.
It is required to draw the conclusions you're drawing. Since it's missing, those conclusions can't be drawn.

Parking meter attendants can be described the same way, yet they are not a police force.
The UN can be described the same way, yet they are not a police force.
Hall monitors can be described the same way, yet they are not a police force.
I can be described the same way, yet I am not a police force.

Quote:
In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves."
…and guess what? He has said pretty much exactly that. Do you know why? Because that's how highsec works; that's how CONCORD works; and that's how personal responsibility works.

Quote:
The key point is that CONCORD punish for breaking the law- they are not just some "isk sink mechanic."
Close but not quite. They punish you for breaking the law (“the law” in this question is “no unsanctioned aggressive acts”) by enforcing the cost penalty that comes breaking the law. That single law — aggression comes at a cost — is the key principle of highsec.

Oh, and stop calling them an ISK sink mechanic — it just makes you seem even more ignorant.

Quote:
I'm not seeing it...please lay out the scenario.
Onoz, WTs incoming. Trigger CONCORD to get a free out if it turns out we can't take them!
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3345 - 2014-09-02 04:53:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
"other" is not a required word in that sentence.
It is required to draw the conclusions you're drawing. Since it's missing, those conclusions can't be drawn.

Parking meter attendants can be described the same way, yet they are not a police force.
The UN can be described the same way, yet they are not a police force.
Hall monitors can be described the same way, yet they are not a police force.
I can be described the same way, yet I am not a police force.

Quote:
In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves."
…and guess what? He has said pretty much exactly that. Do you know why? Because that's how highsec works; that's how CONCORD works; and that's how personal responsibility works.

Quote:
I'm not seeing it...please lay out the scenario.
Onoz, WTs incoming. Trigger CONCORD to get a free out if it turns out we can't take them!


Wouldn't it just be quicker to warp off if the WTs are coming? I mean how would avoiding bumping help here? Since they are a WT, they will just lock and scram you, which they can do anyway.

All the groups you gave serve a police-like function, they enforce laws. Whether its the UN, parking attendants, or hall monitors. They are the entities that ensure compliance with the applicable laws.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3346 - 2014-09-02 04:55:28 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

All the groups you gave serve a police-like function, they enforce laws. Whether its the UN, parking attendants, or hall monitors. They are the entities that ensure compliance with the applicable laws.


And we've been over this. The only applicable laws govern the use of offensive modules.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3347 - 2014-09-02 04:55:44 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
"McDonalds workers offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive."

Doesn't make sense now, right? Why? Because McDonalds workers are not a "law enforcement agency" and not a "police force."


Ladies and Gentlemen, the Chewbacca defense.

It doesn't make sense because McDonalds workers do nothing to react to or punish illegal aggression in HS. Has nothing to do with any similarities to law enforcement agencies.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3348 - 2014-09-02 04:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wouldn't it just be quicker to warp off if the WTs are coming?
But then you don't get to blow them up if it turns out you can take them.

Quote:
All the groups you gave serve a police-like function, they enforce laws.
No. None of them do, because none of them are law enforcement agencies or officials. And that's the whole point you're missing: just because you police something or serve a police-like function does not make you police or what you do law enforcement.

What CONCORD does is enforce the cost of aggression that defines highsec. That is all.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3349 - 2014-09-02 04:58:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
And that's the whole point you're missing: just because you police something or serve a police-like function does not make you police or what you do law enforcement.


Case in point, mall security. Those fat, tired old freaks don't even have guns. I beat up, like, fifteen of them before the real cops got there.

The real cops that someone has to call, by the way. Just pointing out that little bit of realism.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3350 - 2014-09-02 04:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
"other" is not a required word in that sentence. In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves." The fact that he did not say that strongly suggests that CONCORD is in fact viewed as a law enforcement agency (which is exactly what they do - enforce the laws, and punish criminals).


CCP Falcon said that exact thing in the sentences immediately surrounding the one you're quoting:

CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

....

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.


Notice the use of a rhetorical question to explain that CCP (and thus the mechanics of the game) do not provide and are not meant to provide protection to you.

Also notice how he coolly dismisses your claim that HS is not a place where you need friends.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3351 - 2014-09-02 04:59:17 UTC
Why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3352 - 2014-09-02 05:00:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wouldn't it just be quicker to warp off if the WTs are coming?
But then you don't get to blow them up if it turns out you can take them.

Quote:
All the groups you gave serve a police-like function, they enforce laws.
No. None of them do, because none of them are law enforcement agencies or officials. And that's the whole point you're missing: just because you police something or serve a police-like function does not make you police or what you do law enforcement.


Not getting your scenario...so you spawn CONCORD and now can't be bumped...you wait for the WT's to come (presumable you align away since you may want to run). They show up....and now you can instawarp...but you could do that anyway...they will never have time to bump you....and anyway why would they bother? It's much quicker to just scram you....again your parade of horribles is breaking down.....

I would be thrilled of CONCORD would act like hall monitors, the UN, or parking attendants. These people do more than just hand out fines. They also take necessary action to enforce the laws and accomplish their duties. A hall monitor who sees Student A beating up Student B would not just give them both tickets for being out of class and go home, he would break the fight up. Ditto for the UN. And the parking attendant would also enforce other laws in his jurisdiction.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3353 - 2014-09-02 05:01:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?


Ever been to highsec?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3354 - 2014-09-02 05:01:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?


They were separate items, actually. It makes a freighter invincible on it's own, while making war targets completely ineffective.

You have a guy tag along in a destroyer with his guns not grouped, and if your scout spots war targets the alt shoots all of the fleet once, then they can insta warp away with the 60 second invincibility bubble.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3355 - 2014-09-02 05:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
"other" is not a required word in that sentence. In your view CCP Falcon should have said "CONCORD is not a police force at all. They are not in highsec to protect you. They are merely an isk-sink that destroy ships that commit a criminal act subsequent to such act occurring. Go protect yourselves." The fact that he did not say that strongly suggests that CONCORD is in fact viewed as a law enforcement agency (which is exactly what they do - enforce the laws, and punish criminals).


CCP Falcon said that exact thing in the sentences immediately surrounding the one you're quoting:

CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

....

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.


Notice the use of a rhetorical question to explain that CCP (and thus the mechanics of the game) do not provide and are not meant to provide protection to you.

Also notice how he coolly dismisses your claim that HS is not a place where you need friends.


CCP Falcon was referring to people getting blown up before CONCORD arrived (when I agree they deserve no protection). My point is that CONCORD should act intelligently once it shows up, and not let a ship effectively be rendered unable to warp due to bumping, hence my 60 seconds of immunity from bumping.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3356 - 2014-09-02 05:03:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I would be thrilled of CONCORD would act like hall monitors, the UN, or parking attendants. These people do more than just hand out fines. They also take necessary action to enforce the laws and accomplish their duties. A hall monitor who sees Student A beating up Student B would not just give them both tickets for being out of class and go home, he would break the fight up. Ditto for the UN. And the parking attendant would also enforce other laws in his jurisdiction.


If fighting weren't against the rules in the school, I'd expect him to do exactly that.
The parking attendant will not enforce not-laws. Just like CONCORD doesn't punish those not performing Criminal Actions in HS.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3357 - 2014-09-02 05:06:00 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I would be thrilled of CONCORD would act like hall monitors, the UN, or parking attendants. These people do more than just hand out fines. They also take necessary action to enforce the laws and accomplish their duties. A hall monitor who sees Student A beating up Student B would not just give them both tickets for being out of class and go home, he would break the fight up. Ditto for the UN. And the parking attendant would also enforce other laws in his jurisdiction.


If fighting weren't against the rules in the school, I'd expect him to do exactly that.
The parking attendant will not enforce not-laws. Just like CONCORD doesn't punish those not performing Criminal Actions in HS.


And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3358 - 2014-09-02 05:06:09 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?


Ever been to highsec?


Whats your point? Trying to fly a freighter under a wardec is about as moronic as it gets.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3359 - 2014-09-02 05:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not getting your scenario.
What is it you don't get about it? You get an instawarp that you can call in if you need it, which means you are in full control of the encounter. Before they can bring anything to bear on you, you have already decided the outcome. This is a bad thing. Your idea is bad. it also solves nothing.

Quote:
I would be thrilled of CONCORD would act like hall monitors, the UN, or parking attendants.
That is not their role so they never will.

Quote:
Ever been to highsec?
That doesn't answer his question: why are you even trying to fly a freighter under a wardec?

Quote:
using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.
…except that there is exactly zero functional overlap, as you know full well by now. So there is zero reason why it should be a crime. That's why it isn't on and why CONCORD (to say nothing of the GMs) doesn't and shouldn't care about it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3360 - 2014-09-02 05:07:19 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

And again - just like warp scrambling is a crime, using bumping to render a ship unable to warp, which is the functional equivalent, SHOULD be a crime.


It is not the functional equivalent.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.