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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3281 - 2014-09-02 03:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Au contraire....I firmly believe that 3 optimally fitted and operated bumping machariels can render a freighter unable to warp off.
What you believe is irrelevant. The fact is that they can't.


Even if 3 optimally fitted and flown Machs were inescapable (which they aren't), why shouldn't 3 players (plus the 10+ player gank squad) not be able to successfully mess with a single player?


Well I think they are (and have not seen proof to the contrary, just assertion). And it's not a question of messing, its a question of what CONCORD should respond to, and how they would react to the victim being pinned down. I think they would escort him to safety. And when I'm looking at these recent freighter ganks, a lot of them are empty/have minimal cargo, so at least as far as freighter ganks go, ganking empty ones does not see to be so rare.


Why should CONCORD respond to bumping? CONCORD has no investigative role, nor is it intended to. It punishes Criminal Actions and that's it.

Why should the value of the cargo have anything to do with game mechanics?

Why is it a problem if people are willing to lose money to do something they enjoy?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3282 - 2014-09-02 03:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
And look through zkill for the latest freighter kills to see what I mean.


Just looked at the 5 most recent ones. Exactly zero were empty.

Stop lying.


Veers Belvar wrote:
Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.


Stasis Webifier II

Now that you admit you need evidence for assertions, are you going to provide evidence for all of yours or admit you're lying?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3283 - 2014-09-02 03:54:31 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.



I gave you several a few pages back.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3284 - 2014-09-02 03:55:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.


Please provide a source for a freighter being completely unable to escape, or admit that you have none.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#3285 - 2014-09-02 03:57:32 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
data

Those are some interesting numbers, I thought it was somewhere in that ballpark but it's good to see some actual data.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3286 - 2014-09-02 04:00:14 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Au contraire....I firmly believe that 3 optimally fitted and operated bumping machariels can render a freighter unable to warp off.
What you believe is irrelevant. The fact is that they can't.


Even if 3 optimally fitted and flown Machs were inescapable (which they aren't), why shouldn't 3 players (plus the 10+ player gank squad) not be able to successfully mess with a single player?


Well I think they are (and have not seen proof to the contrary, just assertion). And it's not a question of messing, its a question of what CONCORD should respond to, and how they would react to the victim being pinned down. I think they would escort him to safety. And when I'm looking at these recent freighter ganks, a lot of them are empty/have minimal cargo, so at least as far as freighter ganks go, ganking empty ones does not see to be so rare.


From the guy that was trolling CODE for ganking an "empty" freighter that dropped 1 billion ISK in cargo...

Do empty freighters get ganked... Of course they do. If there is an auto piloting freighter that is untanked it has a sign on it that says "GANK ME"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3287 - 2014-09-02 04:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.
So stop repeating the lie that bumping makes it impossible to warp. If you insist on making that claim, prove it. Demonstrate the mechanics that make this happen.

The source that a freigther is able to escape is me — someone who, unlike you, have actually experienced it and who understand the mechanics involved. The source is also any other freighter pilot who — unlike you — have actually experienced it. But I don't even need that source. I have already proven it to you by showing you the mechanics involved that make it [i]impossible[/] to keep a ship from warping with bumps.

Quote:
And again about the bumping (and for the last time...I can only repeat the same point so many times) - it's inconsistent with how CONCORD would and should act
How is it inconsistent? You have never been able to explain this.
CONCORD acts to enforce a cost penalty to aggression. How is it inconsistent that they do not enforce a cost on an act that isn't aggression?

Quote:
And look through zkill for the latest freighter kills to see what I mean.
No. Answer the question: how many and by whom. Any further evasions on this point will be interpreted as “zero and by no-one”.
Provide a source or admit that you have none.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3288 - 2014-09-02 04:01:35 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And look through zkill for the latest freighter kills to see what I mean.


Just looked at the 5 most recent ones. Exactly zero were empty.

Stop lying.


Veers Belvar wrote:
Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.


Stasis Webifier II


I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3289 - 2014-09-02 04:02:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.



I gave you several a few pages back.


Must have missed it, can you clarify? This is without assistance from friends, etc....
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3290 - 2014-09-02 04:03:06 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Au contraire....I firmly believe that 3 optimally fitted and operated bumping machariels can render a freighter unable to warp off.
What you believe is irrelevant. The fact is that they can't.


Even if 3 optimally fitted and flown Machs were inescapable (which they aren't), why shouldn't 3 players (plus the 10+ player gank squad) not be able to successfully mess with a single player?


Well I think they are (and have not seen proof to the contrary, just assertion). And it's not a question of messing, its a question of what CONCORD should respond to, and how they would react to the victim being pinned down. I think they would escort him to safety. And when I'm looking at these recent freighter ganks, a lot of them are empty/have minimal cargo, so at least as far as freighter ganks go, ganking empty ones does not see to be so rare.


From the guy that was trolling CODE for ganking an "empty" freighter that dropped 1 billion ISK in cargo...

Do empty freighters get ganked... Of course they do. If there is an auto piloting freighter that is untanked it has a sign on it that says "GANK ME"


why would you gank an empty ship?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3291 - 2014-09-02 04:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.
How do you know they were done at a loss?

Quote:
My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.
Actually, no. Now you're moving the goal posts.

Quote:
why would you gank an empty ship?
Why not? Especially if you can make money from it…
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3292 - 2014-09-02 04:04:51 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.



I gave you several a few pages back.


Must have missed it, can you clarify? This is without assistance from friends, etc....


This is an MMO, they are using a fleet, what makes you think you don't have to use at least one friend to counter the efforts of 25 people?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3293 - 2014-09-02 04:05:11 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

why would you gank an empty ship?


Because this is a PvP game, and shooting people is fun?

You remember fun, right?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3294 - 2014-09-02 04:05:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.
So stop repeating the lie that bumping makes it impossible to warp. If you insist on making that claim, prove it. Demonstrate the mechanics that make this happen.

The source that a freigther is able to escape is me — someone who, unlike you, have actually experienced it and who understand the mechanics involved. The source is also any other freighter pilot who — unlike you — have actually experienced it. But I don't even need that source. I have already proven it to you by showing you the mechanics involved that make it [i]impossible[/] to keep a ship from warping with bumps.

Quote:
And again about the bumping (and for the last time...I can only repeat the same point so many times) - it's inconsistent with how CONCORD would and should act
How is it inconsistent? You have never been able to explain this.
CONCORD acts to enforce a cost penalty to aggression. How is it inconsistent that they do not enforce a cost on an act that isn't aggression?

Quote:
And look through zkill for the latest freighter kills to see what I mean.
No. Answer the question: how many and by whom. Any further evasions on this point will be interpreted as “zero and by no-one”.
Provide a source or admit that you have none.


1. Experience is not proof. I have experience in Uedama that shows the opposite. You would need an actual source proving that 3 OPTIMALLY bumping machs couldn't prevent warp. I think only CCP could provide that.

2. CONCORD punishes wrongful activity, it is not reasonable to think they would ignore a ship having its mobility restricted so it could be ganked.

3. I just posted them...please look through them yourself.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3295 - 2014-09-02 04:05:33 UTC

Quote:

why would you gank an empty ship?



Because it's a space ship in a spaceship video game. Why did Han Solo feel the need to make the Kessel Run in just 7 parsecs?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3296 - 2014-09-02 04:06:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Repeating the same assertion over and over does not make it true. Please provide a source for the freighter being able to escape bumping, or admit that you have none.



I gave you several a few pages back.


Must have missed it, can you clarify? This is without assistance from friends, etc....


This is an MMO, they are using a fleet, what makes you think you don't have to use at least one friend to counter the efforts of 25 people?


Why does CONCORD come and save you if you get warp scrambled? Why don't they demand that you bring friends to help you? Because when people do bad things to you in highsec, CONCORD comes and kills them, and sets you free. Why should it matter if they pressed F5 to scram you, or used 3 machs to bump you so you can't align and warp off?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#3297 - 2014-09-02 04:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.

My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.


You claimed empty, tanked freighters were being killed. None of those are empty, none are tanked.

Why should it be able to escape a trap laid by 15 plus people without any help. This isn't a single player game.

Veers Belvar wrote:
Why does CONCORD come and save you if you get warp scrambled? Why don't they demand that you bring friends to help you? Because when people do bad things to you in highsec, CONCORD comes and kills them, and sets you free. Why should it matter if they pressed F5 to scram you, or used 3 machs to bump you so you can't align and warp off?


They don't. They come and punish the person with the temerity to activate an aggressive module in HS.

Try webbing someone. It doesn't hurt them, it helps them into warp, and CONCORD will kill you for it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#3298 - 2014-09-02 04:08:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see a Rhea with a paltry 100 mil cargo, that cost a lot more than to gank. then an obelisk with 700 mil ganked at a loss, another one with 500 mil ganked at a loss, then one with 150 mil ganked at a loss, and one charon with 1.4 bil in cargo ganked at a profit. so 4/5 were at a loss, and many at a significant loss.
How do you know they were done at a loss?

Quote:
My question involved the freighter itself being able to escape, without help.
Actually, no. Now you're moving the goal posts.

Quote:
why would you gank an empty ship?
Why not? Especially if you can make money from it…


Compare the drop and the cost of the ships, and you will see they lost money. And my freighter question always involved 3 optimally bumping machariels, and an optimally responsive freighter. And how do you make money from ganking empty ships?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3299 - 2014-09-02 04:08:36 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

1. Experience is not proof. I have experience in Uedama that shows the opposite. You would need an actual source proving that 3 OPTIMALLY bumping machs couldn't prevent warp. I think only CCP could provide that.



Your "experience" just shows that you don't understand what "anecdote" means. It also shows that yes, as we all already knew, most people who fly haulers are bad players who don't play the game correctly.

None of those things mean that a good player who does things right will not escape, as I have several times, along with several others in this thread.


Quote:

2. CONCORD punishes wrongful activity


No, it does not. It punishes a criminal activation of an offensive module.

I won't address your third point, since self referential nonsense means even less coming from someone who wallows in ignorance as much as you do.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3300 - 2014-09-02 04:09:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And how do you make money from ganking empty ships?


This is a sandbox game. Whether it's profitable to do it or not is not the litmus test for something.

It's whether I felt like doing it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.