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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2921 - 2014-09-01 16:10:20 UTC
Torneach Structor wrote:
Why is this still being debated?

Stuff goes boom all the time.

Just roll with the punches and adapt.


It's being debated because CCP actually listens, intelligently analyzes the situation, and makes appropriate adjustments to the game. See Freighter changes.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2922 - 2014-09-01 16:11:35 UTC
Torneach Structor wrote:
Why is this still being debated?

the word 'debate' suggests reason is involved somewhere

so in answer: it's not
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2923 - 2014-09-01 16:12:54 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
It's being debated because CCP actually listens, intelligently analyzes the situation, and makes appropriate adjustments to the game. See Freighter changes.


the freighter nerf was appropriate adjustment reached through intelligent analysis?


... i agree
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2924 - 2014-09-01 16:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Not sure what you are trying to say.....the fact is that CODE is blowing up empty ships.
And there is nothing wrong or broken about that, nor does it mean they aren't making ISK from it.

Quote:
The reason they do so (as you can ascertain from CODE bios, from hanging out in Uedama, or from reading their blog) is to evoke an emotional reaction from their target (colloquially referred to as "tears.")
…and earn ISK. Tears just makes the grind a bit funnier.

Quote:
abuse the bumping mechanic to pin the target down, undock and instantly warp to the gate and start shooting. This, as opposed to the legitimate suicide gankers, is pure griefing, especially when used to target completely empty ships.

Nope. It's just your average mediocre blockade.

Quote:
It's being debated because CCP actually listens, intelligently analyzes the situation, and makes appropriate adjustments to the game. See Freighter changes.
So you honestly believe that freighters needed to be nerfed? And yet here you are, whining about some supposed increase in ganking that you can't prove. You're very odd.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2925 - 2014-09-01 16:18:02 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
It's being debated because CCP actually listens, intelligently analyzes the situation, and makes appropriate adjustments to the game. See Freighter changes.


the freighter nerf was appropriate adjustment reached through intelligent analysis?


... i agree


I consider it a buff because the smart pilots fitted more tank in exchange for less cargo space. The stupid ones...well....they look pretty on the killboards. And for full disclosure's sake - I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it to the point where it doesn't seem very profitable. I think I could make more isk/hour running incursions, blitzing SOE L4s, etc....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2926 - 2014-09-01 16:21:21 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I consider it a buff because the smart pilots fitted more tank in exchange for less cargo space.
The freighters became categorically worse than they were before and there is no way to bring them back to the pre-patch omni-awesome stats. And you consider this a buff?! Ugh
Yeah, I think I'll stick with “odd”.

Quote:
I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it to the point where it doesn't seem very profitable.
So this is yet another thing that you have no insight into and instead try to comment on based on hearsay rather than any kind of established facts.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2927 - 2014-09-01 16:22:14 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it


Yeah they are real good at killing Blockade Runners, DSTs and Jump Frieghters.

Oh wait.

No they arent.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#2928 - 2014-09-01 16:25:08 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
The fact that CODE is making an industry out of blowing up empty freighters (at a loss), bumping ships to allow for multiple waves of ganks, and doing it all quite comfortably with -10 sec status, shows that something is seriously broken here.
No, it really doesn't. it just shows that enough people enjoy ships blowing up that they're willing to sponsor an effort to that effect.

Quote:
But that's not what CODE is doing, they are ganking just to cause tears, and often doing so at a loss.
Actually (and shh, because this is secret!), they do it to earn ISK. 🙊
I suppose there might be some epeen involved as well, but the mighty ISK sure is powerful.

Quote:
They don't care to bring up their suicide status between ganks (as profit/loss oriented gankers do), rather they are happy to be career criminals who do nothing other than ganking. The fact that there is no serious punishment for this is absurd.
Except that there is a serious punishment for them. You just refuse to mete it out for some odd reason. By doing that, you lose all rights to complain about their lack of punishment. You willingly gave them carte blanche to keep doing it.



Not sure what you are trying to say.....the fact is that CODE is blowing up empty ships. People who are looking to make ISK don't do that - they blow up ships with cargo in then. The reason they do so (as you can ascertain from CODE bios, from hanging out in Uedama, or from reading their blog) is to evoke an emotional reaction from their target (colloquially referred to as "tears.") There is no real opportunity to shoot them....they hang out in dockup, have their scout find a target on the gate, abuse the bumping mechanic to pin the target down, undock and instantly warp to the gate and start shooting. This, as opposed to the legitimate suicide gankers, is pure griefing, especially when used to target completely empty ships.


You dont get to judge who's gameplay is or isnt legitimate unless you're part of CCP and the day they give a tear soaked moron like you who doesnt understand the first thing about game mechanics a job is the day I unsub for good.

With regards to CODE specificly who said the isk they make had to be in the ships they ganked? Often people will pay them tons of isk simply because they read the latest Minerbumping and laughed their asses off. Dont make the mistake of assuming loot is the only way to make money in EvE.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2929 - 2014-09-01 16:25:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I consider it a buff because the smart pilots fitted more tank in exchange for less cargo space.
The freighters became categorically worse than they were before and there is no way to bring them back to the pre-patch omni-awesome stats. And you consider this a buff?! Ugh
Yeah, I think I'll stick with “odd”.

Quote:
I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it to the point where it doesn't seem very profitable.
So this is yet another thing that you have no insight into and instead try to comment on based on hearsay rather than any kind of established facts.


And again more lies from you....you sure are good at making up new ones every 5 minutes. Freighters can have a lot more ehp post-patch by fitting bulkheads, which is what I would do. Less cargo space, more ehp - that is a buff in my world.

And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling. i'm active in the anti gank channels, I try to help gank victims escape, I discuss fitting with haulers, I carefully follow killboard to see where haulers are going down and how they are fitted, I follow gank intel to see who is ganking them, and participate in many other directly relevant activities, giving me direct experience on the matter involved. So no, you absurd claim that my information is "hearsay" is, once again, completely false.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2930 - 2014-09-01 16:26:50 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it


Yeah they are real good at killing Blockade Runners, DSTs and Jump Frieghters.

Oh wait.

No they arent.


They have killed quite a number of those, please check their killboard and get back to use with details. And there are very good reasons why most haulers don't use those, cost, capacity, etc....
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2931 - 2014-09-01 16:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:
The fact that CODE is making an industry out of blowing up empty freighters (at a loss), bumping ships to allow for multiple waves of ganks, and doing it all quite comfortably with -10 sec status, shows that something is seriously broken here. Ganking for profit - great, I'm 100% in support (I used to check out the combat kills for the starter corp to see some guys gank wreathes with 1 bil + in cargo). But that's not what CODE is doing, they are ganking just to cause tears, and often doing so at a loss.
it's not a loss when compared to their income stream, which is donations in from 3rd parties for "shares". Some donates indirectly profit from it, everybody gets paid dividends in terms of lols and hilariously overplayed blog posts.

Quote:
They don't care to bring up their suicide status between ganks (as profit/loss oriented gankers do), rather they are happy to be career criminals who do nothing other than ganking.
Why would they? -10 to -5 is relatively cheap -5 to 0 is not. Are you sure about profit/loss orientated gankers? I can think of a few corps who gank for profit where -10 is the norm. There's also nothing wrong with being a career criminal in Eve, even a specialist one.

Quote:
The fact that there is no serious punishment for this is absurd. Personally I think anyone with -5 sec status or below should draw faction police within 5 seconds, forcing them to go to low/null and raise their sec status before operating in empire.
I have no idea of times, a quick search revealed stuff related to faction standing not sec status, it'd be interesting to see them; but the faction police already respond to sec status

    -2.0 or lower will be attacked in 1.0 space
    -2.5 or lower will be attacked in 0.9 and above
    -3.0 or lower will be attacked in 0.8 and above
    -3.5 or lower will be attacked in 0.7 and above
    -4.0 or lower will be attacked in 0.6 and above
    -4.5 or lower will be attacked in 0.5 and above (all of highsec)
I would assume a similar progression to Concord, ie in 0.9 & 1.0 fast as hell, gradually slowing down in line with the system sec.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2932 - 2014-09-01 16:28:12 UTC


You dont get to judge who's gameplay is or isnt legitimate unless you're part of CCP and the day they give a tear soaked moron like you who doesnt understand the first thing about game mechanics a job is the day I unsub for good.

With regards to CODE specificly who said the isk they make had to be in the ships they ganked? Often people will pay them tons of isk simply because they read the latest Minerbumping and laughed their asses off. Dont make the mistake of assuming loot is the only way to make money in EvE.
[/quote]

Well if they would give a tear inducing griefer and moron like you control, i would also unsub. Luckily we are allowed to raise issues on the forum, present our views, and let CCP decide what to do.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2933 - 2014-09-01 16:29:38 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I consider it a buff because the smart pilots fitted more tank in exchange for less cargo space.
The freighters became categorically worse than they were before and there is no way to bring them back to the pre-patch omni-awesome stats. And you consider this a buff?! Ugh
Yeah, I think I'll stick with “odd”.

Quote:
I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it to the point where it doesn't seem very profitable.
So this is yet another thing that you have no insight into and instead try to comment on based on hearsay rather than any kind of established facts.


And again more lies from you....you sure are good at making up new ones every 5 minutes. Freighters can have a lot more ehp post-patch by fitting bulkheads, which is what I would do. Less cargo space, more ehp - that is a buff in my world.

And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling. i'm active in the anti gank channels, I try to help gank victims escape, I discuss fitting with haulers, I carefully follow killboard to see where haulers are going down and how they are fitted, I follow gank intel to see who is ganking them, and participate in many other directly relevant activities, giving me direct experience on the matter involved. So no, you absurd claim that my information is "hearsay" is, once again, completely false.


It is impossible to fit a freighter that can get the same tank and cargo as before the nerf. You will have less of one or the other.

So yes, freighters got nerfed.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2934 - 2014-09-01 16:30:29 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling.


Except that someone who does haul, frequently and without being ganked ever, like myself on my alt, is going to know vastly more about the issue than someone who doesn't. And I'm telling you your arguments are bad.

I haul ships, fittings, and other stuff frequently for myself and for friends on an NPC alt to ensure supply lines can't be cut due to wardecs. I frequently haul in the hundreds of millions worth of stuff with appropriately tanked DSTs and even T1 haulers, depending on the cargo. Not depending on the value, though. I have survived enough gank attempts in a Wreathe to say quite explicitly that to whine about ganking is to lose EVE.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#2935 - 2014-09-01 16:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Veers Belvar wrote:

They have killed quite a number of those, please check their killboard and get back to use with details. And there are very good reasons why most haulers don't use those, cost, capacity, etc....


Theyve killed quite a number of a lot of things.

Why dont you get back to me with the numbers of the combat ships they've killed and see if that supports your assertation that they fight for tears alone.

If "most haulers" don't use any of these ships, "most haulers" are complete idiots.

Risk vs Reward is also Cost vs Security

Oh and btw here's the stats you asked for;

Blockade Runner 115
Deep Space Transport 9
Industrial 1,110

Jump Freighter 23
Freighter 445

I stand by my position.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2936 - 2014-09-01 16:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
And again more lies from you.
Prove it.

Quote:
Freighters can have a lot more ehp post-patch by fitting bulkheads
…and they become much much worse in a multitude of other areas as an effect. Again, they are categorically worse than before. There is nothing to argue there unless you want to argue against how mathematics works. (and I fully expect you to not be familiar with that either and try it anyway).

There is no way to bring them back to their pre-patch stats, because that's how the nerf was balanced out: every relevant stat got lowered, and then we were given modules to bring one of them back to a good level (or one close to the old level and a second to a mediocre level). If you don't see this, then we have yet another item on the now near-infinite list of things you are not familiar with and don't understand how they work.

Quote:
And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling. i'm active in the anti gank channels, I try to help gank victims escape, I discuss fitting with haulers, I carefully follow killboard to see where haulers are going down and how they are fitted, I follow gank intel to see who is ganking them, and participate in many other directly relevant activities, giving me
…no experience in the matter — only a lot of hearsay, and as you have amply proven so far, a lot of that hearsay is just plain old incorrect and/or ignorant of how the game actually works. For instance, you don't even know how to help gank victims escape, as your own story illustrated. You don't understand the mechanics, so you made no useful contribution in the situation.

Veers Belvar wrote:
Well if they would give a tear inducing griefer and moron like you control, i would also unsub. Luckily we are allowed to raise issues on the forum, present our views, and let CCP decide what to do.

So you don't know who CCP Falcon is, I take it. Lol
And when you find out, can I have your stuff?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2937 - 2014-09-01 16:34:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I consider it a buff because the smart pilots fitted more tank in exchange for less cargo space.
The freighters became categorically worse than they were before and there is no way to bring them back to the pre-patch omni-awesome stats. And you consider this a buff?! Ugh
Yeah, I think I'll stick with “odd”.

Quote:
I actually don't haul, mainly because I think that CODE has affected the risk/reward of it to the point where it doesn't seem very profitable.
So this is yet another thing that you have no insight into and instead try to comment on based on hearsay rather than any kind of established facts.


And again more lies from you....you sure are good at making up new ones every 5 minutes. Freighters can have a lot more ehp post-patch by fitting bulkheads, which is what I would do. Less cargo space, more ehp - that is a buff in my world.

And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling. i'm active in the anti gank channels, I try to help gank victims escape, I discuss fitting with haulers, I carefully follow killboard to see where haulers are going down and how they are fitted, I follow gank intel to see who is ganking them, and participate in many other directly relevant activities, giving me direct experience on the matter involved. So no, you absurd claim that my information is "hearsay" is, once again, completely false.


It is impossible to fit a freighter that can get the same tank and cargo as before the nerf. You will have less of one or the other.

So yes, freighters got nerfed.


But you can get more total tank than before, and still have a lot of cargo capacity - which is what the freighter pilots wanted (and I fully supported). So, at least in their view, CCP significantly buffed them (and it did so because it felt that too many were getting felled by suicide gankers. Yet another example of CCP analyzing a situation and responding appropriately).
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2938 - 2014-09-01 16:36:12 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


(and I fully supported).


Your subjective validation is noted. It's based on misinterpretation of information, but noted nonetheless.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2939 - 2014-09-01 16:37:30 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And one need not haul himself to be part of the discussion vis-a-vis hauling. i'm active in the anti gank channels, I try to help gank victims escape, I discuss fitting with haulers, I carefully follow killboard to see where haulers are going down and how they are fitted, I follow gank intel to see who is ganking them, and participate in many other directly relevant activities, giving me direct experience on the matter involved. So no, you absurd claim that my information is "hearsay" is, once again, completely false.

you'll have no trouble presenting your substantiated information regarding hauling profitability then, friend

this is your opportunity to prove ganking is so out of control that hauling is no longer a viably profitable career
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2940 - 2014-09-01 16:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Veers Belvar wrote:


But you can get more total tank than before, and still have a lot of cargo capacity - which is what the freighter pilots wanted (and I fully supported). So, at least in their view, CCP significantly buffed them (and it did so because it felt that too many were getting felled by suicide gankers. Yet another example of CCP analyzing a situation and responding appropriately).


I can get one or the other. No matter how I fit it I cannot transport the same number of my goods in one trip like I used to. My freighter is worse than before because I need to make two trips rather than one. It was nerfed and you are one of the idiots that got it nerfed..