These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#941 - 2014-09-01 05:22:17 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Let me assure you that as a licensed attorney in the United States, I know EXACTLY what those terms mean.
So why do you keep misusing them and use them to refer to things that are not related?

I take it that this assurance is on the same level as your assurance that you are familiar with the game mechanics — a familiarity you immediately disproved by citing “facts” that were in direct contradiction to said game mechanics.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#942 - 2014-09-01 05:24:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Let me assure you that as a licensed attorney in the United States, I know EXACTLY what those terms mean.
So why do you keep misusing them and use them to refer to things that are not related?

I take it that this assurance is on the same level as your assurance that you are familiar with the game mechanics — a familiarity you immediately disproved by citing “facts” that were in direct contradiction to said game mechanics.


I've properly analogized the in game situation to false imprisonment. The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.
Thaylon Sen
The Boondock Saints
#943 - 2014-09-01 05:25:02 UTC
Zuteh wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.

Smile



If CONCORD was to be a deterrent then the ganking character would be thrown in Eve-jail for a few months. Currently it is a puny consequence which the gankers completely mitigate with throw-away fits. IMO this is the reason Eve stagnated and is declining, it drives off fresh blood who can't be arsed with a cesspool of wannabe pirates getting their kicks out of E-tears.


Having played EVE since beta, I just wanted to quote this again as summing up my opinions on the matter. There is an underlying problem here that needs to be addressed, otherwise there will be no new blood to fill the ranks, as long term players slowly fade away due to natural attrition. I'm all for open world PvP (and I'm guilty of being a ganker myself at times), but the simple truth is, the game isn't as new player friendly as it was when I and many other old vets started playing. Something has to change or EVE will fade away to.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#944 - 2014-09-01 05:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
CCP Falcon wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Try again.


Don't need to buddy, what I said is fact. Sorry if you don't agree. Smile




This is the ROLE I wish to see CCP in. Stand your Ground, You handle the game aspect and let the players run as they should in a Sandbox game. Whether we kick the castle down or build it, it's up to us. I am so happy finally seeing CCP and a very respect Dev ontop of that taking a Solid stance for once. Actually the last few "releases" I have seen them stand their ground and I love it. Start dealing with everyone and not Catering to the Tearfilled Entitled.


Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.


TL;DR
Causality ************.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#945 - 2014-09-01 05:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Yawn...just lying over and over again does not an argument make.
…and that is exactly why you have no argument. Because you have only ever managed to prove that everything you say is a lie.

Quote:
Since you have provided not a shred of evidence so far
…aside from proving everything you say wrong using actual facts — something you have not been able to respond to.

Let's list a few of your lies so far, shall we?

You claim that ganking has increased. You have not been able to provide any supporting evidence.
You claim that bumping replicates warp scrambling 100%. This is proven false by simple game mechanics.
You claim that you have witnessed this happening. This is proven false by your claim that you have no experience of it.
You claim that CONCORD does not respond to illegal restriction of movement. This is proven false by simple game mechanics.
You claim that bumping ships out of alignment is a criminal act. This is proven false by simple game mechanics and by multiple dev statements.
You claim that CONCORD is a police force. You have not been able to provide any source that says so.
You claim that bumping is not consistent with the principle of highsec. This is proven false by dev statement, simple game mechanics, and your abject refusal to actually specify said principles.
You claim that you are familiar with the game mechaincs. This is proven false by how you consistently describe them in ways that have no relation whatsoever to how they actually work, and by your inability to spot the relevance of said mechanics when they're quoted for you.
You claim that the truth works well for you. This is proven false by your consistent use of lies and fantasies and your dismissal of hard facts.

Quote:
And as for the 1.4 number, why don't you ask your fellow poster instead of asking me?
Because you tried (and failed) to use it to prove an increase in ganking.

Quote:
I've properly analogized the in game situation to false imprisonment.
No, you haven't for the simple reason that what the term describes already exists in the game. It is not what you're describing. What you're describing is not false imprisonment by virtue of not being imprisonment to begin with. It is only your proven unfamiliarity with game mechanics that make you repeat this very silly and very obvious error, both in terms of legal jargon and in terms of gameplay.

…oh, and the last time you tried to tangle with analogies, you ended up with misrepresentation and a hilarious strawman, so the propriety of your analogising is itself highly questionable.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#946 - 2014-09-01 05:28:16 UTC
Ah, I see we have another fake space lawyer.

Don't have anything else to bolster your argument anymore, so you fall back on the old "appeal to imaginary authority", hmm?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#947 - 2014-09-01 05:29:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ah, I see we have another fake space lawyer.

Don't have anything else to bolster your argument anymore, so you fall back on the old "appeal to imaginary authority", hmm?


The truth actually works quite well for me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#948 - 2014-09-01 05:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
The truth actually works quite well for me.
This is very obviously a lie, since you refuse to accept some very simple truths related to the matter at hand.


…in fact, let's add that to the list…
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#949 - 2014-09-01 05:34:37 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ah, I see we have another fake space lawyer.

Don't have anything else to bolster your argument anymore, so you fall back on the old "appeal to imaginary authority", hmm?


The truth actually works quite well for me.


More like a term you looked up on LegalZoom, I imagine.

Hence why you keep repeating it endlessly like it's a magic charm. I thought lawyers were supposed to be good at arguing?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#950 - 2014-09-01 05:36:36 UTC


Quote:
Since you have provided not a shred of evidence so far
…aside from proving everything you say wrong using actual facts — something you have not been able to respond to.

Let's list a few of your lies so far, shall we?

You claim that ganking has increased. You have not been able to provide any supporting evidence.
You claim that bumping replicates warp scrambling 100%. This is proven false by simple game mechanics.
You claim that you have witnessed this happening. This is proven false by your claim that you have no experience of it.
You claim that CONCORD does not respond to illegal restriction of movement. This is proven false by simple game mechanics.
You claim that bumping ships out of alignment is a criminal act. This is proven false by simple game mechanics and by multiple dev statements.
You claim that CONCORD is a police force. You have not been able to provide any source that says so.
You claim that bumping is not consistent with the principle of highsec. This is proven false by dev statement, simple game mechanics, and your abject refusal to actually specify said principles.
You claim that you are familiar with the game mechaincs. This is proven false by how you consistently describe them in ways that have no relation whatsoever to how they actually work, and by your inability to spot the relevance of said mechanics when they're quoted for you.

Quote:
And as for the 1.4 number, why don't you ask your fellow poster instead of asking me?
Because you tried (and failed) to use it to prove an increase in ganking.

Quote:
I've properly analogized the in game situation to false imprisonment.
No, you haven't for the simple reason that what the term describes already exists in the game. It is not what you're describing. What you're describing is not false imprisonment by virtue of not being imprisonment to begin with. It is only your proven unfamiliarity with game mechanics that make you repeat this very silly and very obvious error, both in terms of legal jargon and in terms of gameplay.

…oh, and the last time you tried to tangle with analogies, you ended up with misrepresentation and a hilarious strawman, so the propriety of your analogising is itself highly questionable.[/quote]

One more go with you today....I've kind of reached my lie-busting quota for now.

I gave strong supporting evidence that freighter ganking has increased...the killboard from the 1 guy I gave you nearly exceeds the 1.4 number per day FROM YOUR OWN SIDE. Check out minerbumping.com for more examples.
I pointed out that if optimal bumping renders a ship unable to warp, it is functionally equivalent to warp scrambling
I did witness it happening, I was not the victim, I was trying to help the victim escape. (The fact that you listed this as a "lie" is truly mortifyingly stupid.)
CONCORD fails to respond to bumping between ganks (not sure how this could possibly be a "lie.")
I said that it SHOULD be criminal, not that it currently is (another insane example of a "lie.")
I think any rational person sees CONCORD as a police force in highsec.
I pointed out how absurd it is to not punish bumping between ganks that is equivalent to false imprisonment (you really have to be delusional to not see this.)
I am quite familiar with game mechanics, thank you. And not my fault if you don't how analogies work.

Keep up the great work, and have a nice day. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#951 - 2014-09-01 05:38:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ah, I see we have another fake space lawyer.

Don't have anything else to bolster your argument anymore, so you fall back on the old "appeal to imaginary authority", hmm?


The truth actually works quite well for me.


More like a term you looked up on LegalZoom, I imagine.

Hence why you keep repeating it endlessly like it's a magic charm. I thought lawyers were supposed to be good at arguing?


Not much "arguing" to be done with trolls just looking to protect their livelihood.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#952 - 2014-09-01 05:38:36 UTC
You claim ganking and bumping are a problem.

Thus far, you have provided no evidence for that, just feelings and anecdotal claims arising from you spending an hour or two in Uedama.

CCP says that ganking and bumping are not problems, you have been linked Dev and GM posts to that effect.

I win.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#953 - 2014-09-01 05:41:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You claim ganking and bumping are a problem.

Thus far, you have provided no evidence for that, just feelings and anecdotal claims arising from you spending an hour or two in Uedama.

CCP says that ganking and bumping are not problems, you have been linked Dev and GM posts to that effect.

I win.


Quite the "victory." The fact that CCP recently buffed freighters suggest that they do see a problem. And the fact that CODE has led a massive increase in freighter ganking shows that there is an even bigger problem than before.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#954 - 2014-09-01 05:45:56 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You claim ganking and bumping are a problem.

Thus far, you have provided no evidence for that, just feelings and anecdotal claims arising from you spending an hour or two in Uedama.

CCP says that ganking and bumping are not problems, you have been linked Dev and GM posts to that effect.

I win.


Quite the "victory." The fact that CCP recently buffed freighters suggest that they do see a problem. And the fact that CODE has led a massive increase in freighter ganking shows that there is an even bigger problem than before.


They did not buff freighters, that's the best part.

They nerfed them, hence why they're easier to kill now, since if people want their old cargo values back they have to eat a big tank nerf. Clearly, CCP thinks they had too much of a benefit in the HP/Cargo ratio.

And the fact that Code. has been killing more freighters is not a problem. Ships are supposed to die. There is no "maximum" amount of them that are supposed to die.

CCP Falcon has elaborated that quite clearly. If you die to gankers, it's your own fault, and it is not something that they think needs to be "fixed."

There is no getting around that. They are the only authority that matters, and they have said in no uncertain terms that haulers dying is not something that bothers them in the slightest.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#955 - 2014-09-01 05:47:12 UTC
Ok I'm back from that killboard and the first thing that pops into my head was where you got that 1.4 freighters a day number, since that is supposed to be my reference point. and the second thing I found was cargo expanders are very popular on kills. thirdly, Uedama is not the best place to go in blind and solo.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#956 - 2014-09-01 05:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
1. I gave strong supporting evidence that freighter ganking has increased...the killboard from the 1 guy I gave you nearly exceeds the 1.4 number per day FROM YOUR OWN SIDE.
2. I pointed out that if optimal bumping renders a ship unable to warp, it is functionally equivalent to warp scrambling
3. I did witness it happening, I was not the victim, I was trying to help the victim escape.
4. CONCORD fails to respond to bumping between ganks (not sure how this could possibly be a "lie.")
5. I said that it SHOULD be criminal, not that it currently is (another insane example of a "lie.")
6. I think any rational person sees CONCORD as a police force in highsec.
7. I pointed out how absurd it is to not punish bumping between ganks that is equivalent to false imprisonment (you really have to be delusional to not see this.)
8. I am quite familiar with game mechanics, thank you.
9. And not my fault if you don't how analogies work.


1. Just one problem: you didn't count the number of freighters ganked, and you provided no historical trend. So there is no evidence for your claim.
2. Is proven false by simple game mechanics, and also proves false any claim of your familiarity with the mechanics.
3. That still doesn't remove the contradiction, and it also proves false any claim of your familiarity with the mechanics since you didn't actually help — you just flailed around impotently, not knowing what to do and why.
4. …but they do respond to illegal restrictions of movement. Your claim otherwise is disproven by simple game mechanics, and your inability to realise this belies your claim of familiarity with the mechanics.
5. No, you have repeatedly said that it is criminal. Claiming otherwise is yet another lie on your part.
6. Irrelevant. They're not. Your claim otherwise is baseless.
7a. Claiming that it is equivalent to “false imprisonment” belies any familiarity with the mechanics involved.
7b. Your actual claim does not change — you still say it's inconsistent with the principles of highsec that you refuse to define, and the claim as a whole is proven false by the authority on the matter: the guys who designed highsec.
8. This is yet another lie, as proven by the fact that you do not understand how bumping works, how warp scrambling works, how CONCORd works, or how highsec works.
9. No, but it is your fault when you massively misuse or misinterpret them because you are ignorant of both subjects involved.

Quote:
The fact that CCP recently buffed freighters suggest that they do see a problem. And the fact that CODE has led a massive increase in freighter ganking shows that there is an even bigger problem than before.
Two problems there: they didn't buff freigthers. In fact, if you go back and look at the threads, you'll see people screaming their heads off about the nerfs included. And you have yet to prove both any “massive increase” in freighter ganks, or any kind of previous problem.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#957 - 2014-09-01 05:48:41 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ok I'm back from that killboard and the first thing that pops into my head was where you got that 1.4 freighters a day number, since that is supposed to be my reference point. and the second thing I found was cargo expanders are very popular on kills. thirdly, Uedama is not the best place to go in blind and solo.


The 1.4 number is from Kaauros, and yes some freighter pilots are stupid, but even the ones with proper tank are blowing up, and Uedama is a real hard system to avoid.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#958 - 2014-09-01 05:49:13 UTC
The number I got was from a thread where they referenced the "creation vs. destruction" dev blog.

I don't recall who it was who said it, but when I checked their numbers against (I think it was zKillboard) it checked out. Granted, that was back in FanFest, so it's been a while.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#959 - 2014-09-01 05:49:59 UTC
At least spell my name correctly. Seven letters is not too much to ask, Belvedere.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#960 - 2014-09-01 05:50:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
At least spell my name correctly. Seven letters is not too much to ask, Belvedere.


Find an easier name for Americans to spell, without so many vowels :)