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High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#681 - 2014-08-31 12:04:04 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Belt Scout wrote:
Wow guys. Not only did you all take the bait, you also gulped down the line, the fishing pole, and half of the boat.

This is a perfect example of trolling at it's finest. Good job Indahmawar Fazmarai. 12/10.

Big smile

nope. genuine carebear.
Genuine something, not sure carebear even begins to cover it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#682 - 2014-08-31 12:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Belt Scout wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Belt Scout wrote:
Wow guys. Not only did you all take the bait, you also gulped down the line, the fishing pole, and half of the boat.

This is a perfect example of trolling at it's finest. Good job Indahmawar Fazmarai. 12/10.

Big smile





We have learned that you must beat down every bad idea, no matter how stupid, lest CCP take it seriously.


Yeah, you're def right about this. Our game gets broken for all the wrong reasons when these things slip under the radar.

.


Well, that's because of CCP's long standing habit to not ask the people who actually uses the features and iterate them to suit to someone else.

It goes like this:
Thinking man asks a developer to iterate feature X, (say, wormholes) by a given date
Developer struggles to figure a way to iterate wormholes, without checking any wormhole player because of *secrecy*
Developer presents the concept to the best of his knowledge, but without any actual wormholer input
Thinking man approves and schedules developer for a second task after iterating wormholes
Developer presents the concept to CSM
CSM panics and say no, no, no, take that back to the drawing board
Developer notices he won't meet the release date if he's back to the drawing board, so he says yes, yes, yes
CSM says no, no, no
Developer asks Thinking man, who notices how a delay in wormholes for Hyperion will **** up feature #2 for Oceanus, so CCP says yes, yes, yes
CSM says no, no, no
Affected CSM member suffers a heart attack, but struggles to say let's negotiate
CCP and CSM negotiate but the feature is essentially pushed forward to F&I discussion
F&I panics, suffers a heart attack and produces a threadnaught full of of fear and loathing
Developer says yes, yes, yes
F&I say no, no no
Feature (say, wormholes) is slaughtered as planned and some players unsub, some stop using it (and eventually unsub) and nobody bothers to exploit the new features because they never cared of that niche
Success!

It doesn't take anyone suggesting anything stupid to wreak havoc on a feature, it's just CCP at work as usual. Just wait until they iterate something you like. Cool
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#683 - 2014-08-31 13:05:40 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


Why? The only difference with CONCORD is that the victim may actually survive the first attack. A second fleet still can alpha him right under the noses of CONCORD.

And then, back to where this whole discussion started:

Complete and unavoidable waste of your effort caused by the action of the adversary should be a possibility both for agressors and defenders. So far, only the defenders take that chance. As I said above, that's OK with CCP and they will not do anything to change the game, so you all can rest assured that I am just wasting my time and effort.


This would only be true if gank ships were free and none of the penalties for doing a gank exist.

The victim can already survive a gank, it just requires some actual thought other than "lets transport this 300 mil in goods in an untanked frigate".
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#684 - 2014-08-31 13:38:57 UTC
Paul Maken wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Nothing's changed for 11 years.


That's not true. There have been several changes.

Some made ganking harder:

1.) The change to deny insurance payout to people who get CONCORDOKKEN had a big impact. Gankers went from paying for 30% of a hull to paying for 100%, which has been an extra 30-50m in cost to the gankers depending on where the hull price has fluctuated.
2.) The recent change giving freighters low slots lets you get far more EHP than was possible previously. This both lets you move more valuable cargos safely, but it also means that the gankers need to get a ship scan of freighters as well as a cargo scan.
3.) Kill rights can now be made available/sold. It used to be that if you ganked a hauling/industrial character then the kill right they got was almost meaningless. Now, when you get a kill right on you it actually does matter.

Others have made ganking easier:

4.) The addition of the Tier 3 battlecruisers, especially the high alpha of the Tornadoes, reduced the cost of ganking with fewer larger ships until the insurance change came to balance that out.
5.) The ability to buy back security status with tags made it possible for profitable ganking to be sustained by buying tags instead of needing to spend a lot of time ratting back up above -5. This makes the loss of security status less of a penalty than it used to be.

Overall, the changes have balanced out to keep the risk/reward relationships in check.

When CCP lets us trade killrights for a look at who the alt characters on an account are risk will equal reward, and not a second sooner. the reason gankers gank with impunity is that you cannot hit them back on their other characters that benefit from it. i'm planning to start ganking myself someday because why not kill people at random then pay for 17 PLEXes with their money and efforts when it can never be traced back to the characters on those accounts that i actually use for other things? thanks for making it all possible, ccp.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Dave stark
#685 - 2014-08-31 13:47:57 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
When CCP lets us trade killrights for a look at who the alt characters on an account are risk will equal reward, and not a second sooner.


so when ccp lets you trade killrights for random unrelated pilot names, that'll have an effect on risk vs reward?

i don't think so.
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#686 - 2014-08-31 14:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Demonfist
Dave Stark wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
When CCP lets us trade killrights for a look at who the alt characters on an account are risk will equal reward, and not a second sooner.


so when ccp lets you trade killrights for random unrelated pilot names, that'll have an effect on risk vs reward?

i don't think so.

unrelated? i guess, except for the fact that any profits made likely wouldn't be kept on the ganker character once it had sufficient reserves to keep ganking. spend an hour doing missions for 40 mil isk or spend 10 minutes stealing 200 mil from someone else. it really isn't a hard choice to make. and hiding where that cash is going behind an alt created solely for ganking is simple common sense. until the person piloting that ship can be held accountable for their actions on any other character, though, there is no risk and only reward. lets not delude ourselves here. you want to nuke my frieghter or orca? that's fine. show me where yours is too so i can return the favor. of course none of them will do that. that would be fair, that would be not being a griefing ****.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#687 - 2014-08-31 14:52:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This would only be true if gank ships were free and none of the penalties for doing a gank exist.

What penalty? a sec status hit? meaningless. losing a cheap throw away ship? meaningless. getting a kill right on a ganker character? meaningless. someone stacking bounty on you? meaningless.

being a ganker makes all of those a moot point, because it only takes one fat juicy target worth 2 bil to make any amount of all of those worthwhile.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#688 - 2014-08-31 15:11:29 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This would only be true if gank ships were free and none of the penalties for doing a gank exist.

What penalty? a sec status hit? meaningless. losing a cheap throw away ship? meaningless. getting a kill right on a ganker character? meaningless. someone stacking bounty on you? meaningless.

being a ganker makes all of those a moot point, because it only takes one fat juicy target worth 2 bil to make any amount of all of those worthwhile.


Average cost for a gank nado is 80 mil, at -10 you can be killed by anyone, no insurance, killrights can be claimed at any time by anyone, the risk of failing to gank is always there, you can expect at least 50% of the cargo to not drop, you can have your own hauler attacked, your gank ship is ironically profitable to gank. I can go on.

The risks and punishments are in place as are the multiple ways to protect yourself from a pirate.
Dave stark
#689 - 2014-08-31 15:15:10 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
When CCP lets us trade killrights for a look at who the alt characters on an account are risk will equal reward, and not a second sooner.


so when ccp lets you trade killrights for random unrelated pilot names, that'll have an effect on risk vs reward?

i don't think so.

unrelated? i guess, except for the fact that any profits made likely wouldn't be kept on the ganker character once it had sufficient reserves to keep ganking. spend an hour doing missions for 40 mil isk or spend 10 minutes stealing 200 mil from someone else. it really isn't a hard choice to make. and hiding where that cash is going behind an alt created solely for ganking is simple common sense. until the person piloting that ship can be held accountable for their actions on any other character, though, there is no risk and only reward. lets not delude ourselves here. you want to nuke my frieghter or orca? that's fine. show me where yours is too so i can return the favor. of course none of them will do that. that would be fair, that would be not being a griefing ****.


or alternatively. you could stop being lazy and clueless and stop asking ccp to do your work for you.

if he found yours using nothing but the ingame tools, you can find his the same way.

stop making excuses for wanting ccp to hold your hand in theirs while their other hand feeds you from a silver spoon. it's pathetic and quite frankly it's insulting that you think people are foolish enough to believe that this is for "fairness".
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#690 - 2014-08-31 15:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Demonfist
Dave Stark wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
When CCP lets us trade killrights for a look at who the alt characters on an account are risk will equal reward, and not a second sooner.


so when ccp lets you trade killrights for random unrelated pilot names, that'll have an effect on risk vs reward?

i don't think so.

unrelated? i guess, except for the fact that any profits made likely wouldn't be kept on the ganker character once it had sufficient reserves to keep ganking. spend an hour doing missions for 40 mil isk or spend 10 minutes stealing 200 mil from someone else. it really isn't a hard choice to make. and hiding where that cash is going behind an alt created solely for ganking is simple common sense. until the person piloting that ship can be held accountable for their actions on any other character, though, there is no risk and only reward. lets not delude ourselves here. you want to nuke my frieghter or orca? that's fine. show me where yours is too so i can return the favor. of course none of them will do that. that would be fair, that would be not being a griefing ****.


or alternatively. you could stop being lazy and clueless and stop asking ccp to do your work for you.

if he found yours using nothing but the ingame tools, you can find his the same way.

stop making excuses for wanting ccp to hold your hand in theirs while their other hand feeds you from a silver spoon. it's pathetic and quite frankly it's insulting that you think people are foolish enough to believe that this is for "fairness".

whats the matter, scared of the shoe being on the other foot?

then again it may be more fun to infiltrate code, use the ingame tools to find who else they play and take away the payback-less ganking. that's not a bad idea you've got there. they've definitely pissed off enough people to build an intel network with.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Dave stark
#691 - 2014-08-31 15:24:36 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Demonfist wrote:
When CCP lets us trade killrights for a look at who the alt characters on an account are risk will equal reward, and not a second sooner.


so when ccp lets you trade killrights for random unrelated pilot names, that'll have an effect on risk vs reward?

i don't think so.

unrelated? i guess, except for the fact that any profits made likely wouldn't be kept on the ganker character once it had sufficient reserves to keep ganking. spend an hour doing missions for 40 mil isk or spend 10 minutes stealing 200 mil from someone else. it really isn't a hard choice to make. and hiding where that cash is going behind an alt created solely for ganking is simple common sense. until the person piloting that ship can be held accountable for their actions on any other character, though, there is no risk and only reward. lets not delude ourselves here. you want to nuke my frieghter or orca? that's fine. show me where yours is too so i can return the favor. of course none of them will do that. that would be fair, that would be not being a griefing ****.


or alternatively. you could stop being lazy and clueless and stop asking ccp to do your work for you.

if he found yours using nothing but the ingame tools, you can find his the same way.

stop making excuses for wanting ccp to hold your hand in theirs while their other hand feeds you from a silver spoon. it's pathetic and quite frankly it's insulting that you think people are foolish enough to believe that this is for "fairness".

whats the matter, scared of the shoe being on the other foot?

then again it may be more fun to infiltrate code, use the ingame tools to find who else they play and take away the payback-less ganking. that's not a bad idea you've got there. they've definitely pissed off enough people to build an intel network with.


like i said, if i can find you without ccp holding my hand, you can find me the same way. the shoe IS on the other foot.

with all the whining, bawling, and begging to ccp... the only people that are scared are those unwilling to engage their brain.
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#692 - 2014-08-31 15:32:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

like i said, if i can find you without ccp holding my hand, you can find me the same way. the shoe IS on the other foot.

with all the whining, bawling, and begging to ccp... the only people that are scared are those unwilling to engage their brain.

^ true that.

i just hope code realizes they're harassing the industrial backbone of the game, stealing isk from the people that mass produce it. it's generally not a good idea to **** off a group that could hire every merc outfit that exists if it had a mind to. but hey, i guess everyone needs content.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
David Mandrake
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2014-08-31 15:35:18 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
I say fair play to him if he cuts a profit from someone who's half-assed a ship fitting and AFK hauled across space with a sizeable chunk of ISK in their hold.


I think you mean "Previously fitting-less freighters which get bumped away from gates and sentry guns by previously inconspicuous 100mn MWD plated macharials without ever getting aggression until you get alpha'd"

If people don't bother fitting tank, and AFK their cargo, I'm fine with them dying. What pisses me off is how you can still do everything right and you'll still die, because game mechanics are against you.


I haven't read through the rest of this thread yet, so maybe someone else has come up with this... but if you do everything right you have a webbing alt. If you've still gotten bumped, refit to a scram with a mobile depot (You can burn 50 away from the gate quick) and by the time you've done that, Freighter should be close to/out of range of the sentries. Set alt to orbit the Mach, safties off, web/scram and now it can't bump for awhile. Freighter can either warp off now, or at the very least CONCORD will show up and that'll mean at least one ganker will instadie (or they have to waste time to get CONCORD repositioned which you can use to try to escape again, etc). Sure your alt takes a sec hit and gets killrights but it takes little time to train a second alt and wait out the killright. Unless the Mach pilot engages the alt, in which case, no killright.
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#694 - 2014-08-31 15:37:24 UTC
David Mandrake wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
I say fair play to him if he cuts a profit from someone who's half-assed a ship fitting and AFK hauled across space with a sizeable chunk of ISK in their hold.


I think you mean "Previously fitting-less freighters which get bumped away from gates and sentry guns by previously inconspicuous 100mn MWD plated macharials without ever getting aggression until you get alpha'd"

If people don't bother fitting tank, and AFK their cargo, I'm fine with them dying. What pisses me off is how you can still do everything right and you'll still die, because game mechanics are against you.


I haven't read through the rest of this thread yet, so maybe someone else has come up with this... but if you do everything right you have a webbing alt. If you've still gotten bumped, refit to a scram with a mobile depot (You can burn 50 away from the gate quick) and by the time you've done that, Freighter should be close to/out of range of the sentries. Set alt to orbit the Mach, safties off, web/scram and now it can't bump for awhile. Freighter can either warp off now, or at the very least CONCORD will show up and that'll mean at least one ganker will instadie (or they have to waste time to get CONCORD repositioned which you can use to try to escape again, etc). Sure your alt takes a sec hit and gets killrights but it takes little time to train a second alt and wait out the killright. Unless the Mach pilot engages the alt, in which case, no killright.

^ problem with that, they don't just bring one mach.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Dave stark
#695 - 2014-08-31 15:43:11 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

like i said, if i can find you without ccp holding my hand, you can find me the same way. the shoe IS on the other foot.

with all the whining, bawling, and begging to ccp... the only people that are scared are those unwilling to engage their brain.

^ true that.

i just hope code realizes they're harassing the industrial backbone of the game, stealing isk from the people that mass produce it. it's generally not a good idea to **** off a group that could hire every merc outfit that exists if it had a mind to. but hey, i guess everyone needs content.


except, as every high sec industrialist with a brain knows... high sec wardecs are trivial to avoid. That's why people suicide gank industrialists rather than wardec them.

depending on how strict we're defining what a merc is... you're going to want to hire suicide gankers not mercs.
Luukje
The Vendetta Mercenaries
Vendetta Mercenary Group
#696 - 2014-08-31 15:49:17 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

like i said, if i can find you without ccp holding my hand, you can find me the same way. the shoe IS on the other foot.

with all the whining, bawling, and begging to ccp... the only people that are scared are those unwilling to engage their brain.

^ true that.

i just hope code realizes they're harassing the industrial backbone of the game, stealing isk from the people that mass produce it. it's generally not a good idea to **** off a group that could hire every merc outfit that exists if it had a mind to. but hey, i guess everyone needs content.


hahahahahahhaha. ur so funny
Lilliana Stelles
#697 - 2014-08-31 15:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilliana Stelles
CCP Falcon wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
There is no risk to gank in hi-sec. The ships they use are so cheap and easy to replace the whole risk thing has been circumvented.

Ship blows up, so what...just buy another.

Everyone knows your name, no probelm just buy another character.

The game is so saturated with isk that isk has removed the risk factor.


Tell that to all the guys who suicide gank someone, and end up making a heavy loss because everything they wanted to loot gets destroyed in the ship destruction.

Smile


CCP Falcon wrote:
CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

First off, I'm fairly neutral to the whole issue here. I'm actually all-for highsec ganking. But your logic is flawed and pretty much straight-up trolling. Not that I have a problem with that normally, but it's inappropriate for a representative of CCP, at least in my opinion.

You seem to keep indicating that the level of risk vs. reward for crime is somehow "fair", and that the concord response is comparable to the preventative measures of real world police. But this really isn't the case. Real world police are much less predictable and create a wave of fear among the populace that concord does not.

If you rob a store in the US, you may end up with 5 years in prison, or a life sentence. Your IRL life could be completely destroyed. You may easily suffer being brutalized. The police might plant a weapon on you and then just flat out shoot you. There are constantly cases of unarmed civilians being killed by police during the commission of a minor crime.

The equivalent of this in EVE would be if you podded someone in highsec, you might just happen to randomly end up being biomassed, unable to use stargates for months, or with a negative wallet.

The difference here is that somehow sec status drop and ship destruction are presented as a risk to a ship that is *designed to be destroyed* on a character that *doesn't use sec status*. So there is no real risk.

Again, I don't particularly *care*. The whole miner bumping suicide-ganking issue has never really affected me, and CCP has the right to lay down the hammer and run the game however they want to, which is fine.

Just don't pretend that it's a microcosm of real world risk-vs-reward situations when CONCORD are the most themepark element of the game.

TL;DR: Need RNG in punishments

Not a forum alt. 
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#698 - 2014-08-31 15:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Demonfist wrote:
i just hope code realizes they're harassing the industrial backbone of the game, stealing isk from the people that mass produce it. it's generally not a good idea to **** off a group that could hire every merc outfit that exists if it had a mind to. but hey, i guess everyone needs content.
The industrial backbone of the game relies on players making things explode, the thinking industrialists, who incidentally don't tend to explode, are making isk hand over fist from the activities of groups like CODE..

You're also forgetting that gankers are interested in other things too, I know for a fact that several suicide gankers have alts that are in the business of manufacturing mining ships, haulers, and combat ships, as well as their associated modules.They are creating a demand for their alts products.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#699 - 2014-08-31 15:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Demonfist
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
There is no risk to gank in hi-sec. The ships they use are so cheap and easy to replace the whole risk thing has been circumvented.

Ship blows up, so what...just buy another.

Everyone knows your name, no probelm just buy another character.

The game is so saturated with isk that isk has removed the risk factor.


Tell that to all the guys who suicide gank someone, and end up making a heavy loss because everything they wanted to loot gets destroyed in the ship destruction.

Smile



First off, I'm fairly neutral to the whole issue here. I'm actually all-for highsec ganking. But your logic is flawed and pretty much straight-up trolling. Not that I have a problem with that normally, but it's inappropriate for a representative of CCP, at least in my opinion.

You seem to keep indicating that the level of risk vs. reward for crime is somehow "fair", and that the concord response is comparable to the preventative measures of real world police. But this really isn't the case. Real world police are much less predictable and create a wave of fear among the populace that concord does not.

If you rob a store in the US, you may end up with 5 years in prison, or a life sentence. Your IRL life could be completely destroyed. You may easily suffer being brutalized. The police might plant a weapon on you and then just flat out shoot you. There are constantly cases of unarmed civilians being killed by police during the commission of a minor crime.

The equivalent of this in EVE would be if you podded someone in highsec, you might just happen to randomly end up being biomassed, unable to use stargates for months, or with a negative wallet.

The difference here is that somehow sec status drop and ship destruction are presented as a risk to a ship that is *designed to be destroyed* on a character that *doesn't use sec status*. So there is no real risk.

Again, I don't particularly *care*. The whole miner bumping suicide-ganking issue has never really affected me, and CCP has the right to lay down the hammer and run the game however they want to, which is fine.

Just don't pretend that it's a microcosm of real world risk-vs-reward situations when CONCORD are the most themepark element of the game.

TL;DR: Need RND in punishments

in addendum, if you were found to be part of an organized group of people harassing others, you'd get slapped with RICO and they'd take down everyone. atleast in the US. also in real life you can't recreate yourself with new dna for a clean identity, forensics and no statute of limitations would catch up to you eventually. this all assumes the cops don't just shoot you in the face, which lately wouldn't be a safe bet.

*sighs wistfully* if only concord were so gung ho, instead of being lazy pantywaists that show up after everyone is dead and write reports.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#700 - 2014-08-31 16:00:28 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
David Mandrake wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
I say fair play to him if he cuts a profit from someone who's half-assed a ship fitting and AFK hauled across space with a sizeable chunk of ISK in their hold.


I think you mean "Previously fitting-less freighters which get bumped away from gates and sentry guns by previously inconspicuous 100mn MWD plated macharials without ever getting aggression until you get alpha'd"

If people don't bother fitting tank, and AFK their cargo, I'm fine with them dying. What pisses me off is how you can still do everything right and you'll still die, because game mechanics are against you.


I haven't read through the rest of this thread yet, so maybe someone else has come up with this... but if you do everything right you have a webbing alt. If you've still gotten bumped, refit to a scram with a mobile depot (You can burn 50 away from the gate quick) and by the time you've done that, Freighter should be close to/out of range of the sentries. Set alt to orbit the Mach, safties off, web/scram and now it can't bump for awhile. Freighter can either warp off now, or at the very least CONCORD will show up and that'll mean at least one ganker will instadie (or they have to waste time to get CONCORD repositioned which you can use to try to escape again, etc). Sure your alt takes a sec hit and gets killrights but it takes little time to train a second alt and wait out the killright. Unless the Mach pilot engages the alt, in which case, no killright.

^ problem with that, they don't just bring one mach.


So pre spawn concord with an alt.