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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2721 - 2014-08-29 22:42:47 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Veers Belvar wrote:
[]

I actually agree with you. "Criminal activity" in highsec should lead to the destruction of your ship. Entrapping another player's ship for 15 minutes so that successive waves of gankers can blow them up is criminal activity, and should lead to the loss of your ship.


Could you answer my Q? Am trying to shoe you that what you are asking fot is impossible t o implement..


Any pilot can use an alt to shoot.them and giarantee align ang warp.


Yes - since in my view the bumping here is a criminal activity, it would not be an "exploit" for freighters or miners to self-gank as a way of avoiding bumping for 60 seconds. They would still be vulnerable to being shot, webbing, etc.... all the normal risk factors in high sec. They simply would not be subject to un-responded to entrapment allowing successive waves of gankers to hit them, in effect being warp scrambled without CONCORD response.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2722 - 2014-08-29 22:43:38 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
What is illogical is
Game design doesn't care about what is 'logical'.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2723 - 2014-08-29 22:46:51 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
What my point is, is that in this context, specifically in between gank attempts from the same gankers waiting out their aggression timers, and where the bumping is exactly equivalent in nature to warp disruption/scrambling (which clearly is an activation of offensive modules, and I think you would agree rightfully carries a CONCORD response), the bumping is not "an agression neutral act," but rather is a positive aggressive act, and should see CONCORD dispatch the bumpers.
…except that there is nothing aggressive or offensive about being bumped and it is shares none of the characteristics of warp disruption. After all, you can just warp off.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2724 - 2014-08-29 22:47:49 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Given that this would be difficult to code, I have suggested an alternate option, specifically that ganking would grant a 60 second immunity to the target....which could not be "exploited" by freighters and miners, since by the bumping being inherently aggressive in this contest, they are rightfully able to avail themselves of a CONCORD reponse against it.


Ha ha ha, do you have even the slightest clue how the game's engine works?

I really think you don't, or you would not have typed out what I just quoted.

Here's a good example.

Each and every time they patch this game, there are some Player Own Stations (POS) in the game that "go Skynet", which means that their guns shoot at their allies.

CCP does not know why this happens, and it's random, but it happens with every major patch.

Now, the aggression and CONCORD mechanics are completely, 100% uncoupled from the physics engine.

Not only is it hilariously impossible to sync them together somehow, but that if they did, the bugs that would likely ensue would basically destroy the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2725 - 2014-08-29 22:56:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
What my point is, is that in this context, specifically in between gank attempts from the same gankers waiting out their aggression timers, and where the bumping is exactly equivalent in nature to warp disruption/scrambling (which clearly is an activation of offensive modules, and I think you would agree rightfully carries a CONCORD response), the bumping is not "an agression neutral act," but rather is a positive aggressive act, and should see CONCORD dispatch the bumpers.
…except that there is nothing aggressive or offensive about being bumped and it is shares none of the characteristics of warp disruption. After all, you can just warp off.


The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off. It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2726 - 2014-08-29 22:59:39 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.


And yet, it had several ways to escape that were not used. That was not it's "best efforts", it was absolutely nothing.

Quote:

It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.


Utterly false. As I said, there are a few things you can do in that situation, and the Orca did none of them.

You seem to think that "pressing the warp button a few more times" equates to actually trying to defend himself. It doesn't.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2727 - 2014-08-29 23:01:16 UTC
At 137 pages, there are a lot of tears in this thread....

I feel slighted somehow for not being the cause of any of it.


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2728 - 2014-08-29 23:05:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.


And yet, it had several ways to escape that were not used. That was not it's "best efforts", it was absolutely nothing.

Quote:

It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.


Utterly false. As I said, there are a few things you can do in that situation, and the Orca did none of them.

You seem to think that "pressing the warp button a few more times" equates to actually trying to defend himself. It doesn't.


How should it have escaped....and saying bring friends is not an answer. If you get warp scrambled, do you need to bring friends? No. Why? Because CONCORD blows the scramblers up. So why, if subject to bumping, which in this context is exactly equivalent to warp scrambling, should the answer be to bring friends? Rather, when bumping exactly mimics warp scrambling, it should be responded to by CONCORD in the exact same way....meaning dispatching of the criminal offenders by CONCORD. There is absolutely no reason why CONCORD should help you if you get warp scrambled, but if you get bumped in such a way as to render you effectively warp scrambled, the answer should be go bring scouts/webbing friends. Would anyone say that if you get warp scrambled you should need to bring friends to kill the scrams while CONCORD dozes off?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2729 - 2014-08-29 23:09:31 UTC
Yes, "bring friends" is an answer.

It is THE answer.

If you are flying a ship that can't fit guns, solo, then you deserve whatever you get. CCP Falcon spelled that out pretty clearly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2730 - 2014-08-29 23:11:38 UTC
:popcorn:

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2731 - 2014-08-29 23:11:44 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.
Then it was a very poor effort. An Orca, in particular, should never really find itself in a situation where it's getting bumped since they're so easy to get into warp if fitted properly.

And again, let's just ask for a second how on earth it managed to be stuck for 15 minutes — that means the effort was so far from “best” that “best” doesn't even speak the same language as the word that would describe the effort.
Quote:
In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption

…again, aside from the detail that it doesn't actually inhibit warping (or has any effect on MWDs) the way a scram or point does. Bumping is still not a criminal activity, in this context or any other, because nothing offensive is done to your ship.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#2732 - 2014-08-29 23:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolai Serkanner
Veers Belvar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

The point was that the Orca, despite its best efforts, was unable to warp off.


And yet, it had several ways to escape that were not used. That was not it's "best efforts", it was absolutely nothing.

Quote:

It turns out that a couple of bumpers, even with a 100% ideal response from the Orca, can render it unable to warp off the grid for the 15 minutes until the gankers can reship and try again. In this way it EXACTLY replicates the effect of warp scrambling/disruption, but does not carry a CONCORD response. Which is why bumping, in this, and only in this SPECIFIC context, would seem to clearly be an offensive/"criminal" activity.


Utterly false. As I said, there are a few things you can do in that situation, and the Orca did none of them.

You seem to think that "pressing the warp button a few more times" equates to actually trying to defend himself. It doesn't.


How should it have escaped....and saying bring friends is not an answer. If you get warp scrambled, do you need to bring friends? No. Why? Because CONCORD blows the scramblers up. So why, if subject to bumping, which in this context is exactly equivalent to warp scrambling, should the answer be to bring friends? Rather, when bumping exactly mimics warp scrambling, it should be responded to by CONCORD in the exact same way....meaning dispatching of the criminal offenders by CONCORD. There is absolutely no reason why CONCORD should help you if you get warp scrambled, but if you get bumped in such a way as to render you effectively warp scrambled, the answer should be go bring scouts/webbing friends. Would anyone say that if you get warp scrambled you should need to bring friends to kill the scrams while CONCORD dozes off?



The corporation I joined more then a year and a half ago has this culture thing going about staying classy. I support this idea to the fullest. Your posts however makes it very difficult for me to adhere to this. Please, pretty please, with sugar on top ... make some sense when you post and support my eternal devotion to stay classy.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2733 - 2014-08-30 03:13:26 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Yes - since in my view the bumping here is a criminal activity, it would not be an "exploit" for freighters or miners to self-gank as a way of avoiding bumping for 60 seconds. They would still be vulnerable to being shot, webbing, etc.... all the normal risk factors in high sec. They simply would not be subject to un-responded to entrapment allowing successive waves of gankers to hit them, in effect being warp scrambled without CONCORD response.


I'm sorry about earlier. I've eaten some food and feeling quite sober now.


Can you tell me what the difference is between these two scenarios:

#1:
(1) Make no changes to existing mechanics
(2) Use a webber alt to quickly align and warp


#2:
(A) Make changes to mechanics with this unexplained 60 sec bump immunity post getting shot at
(B) Use an alt to shoot yourself for bump immunity
(C) Use a webber alt to avoid getting shot at by quickly aligning and warping out


I am not understanding the advantage #2 gives anyone. It seems like the Orca pilot should've avoided the system, or bring a webber if he chooses to enter the lion's den.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2734 - 2014-08-30 05:09:28 UTC
Why should I have to scout ahead to see if the road is passable or bring a friend or webber alt to make myself uncatchable when I can just incessantly ***** & moan about gankers & my perceived opinion on how unfair it is that I can't just AFK faceroll past 10 players.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Kurosaki Rukia
The House of Flying Stabbers
#2735 - 2014-08-30 05:36:51 UTC
I've always wanted to help gank a freighter, empty or otherwise... :D

I did help awox one once though, it was named 'My Mobile Home' and within were contents that it looked like the pilot had been hoarding since around 2005.

Because I'm a douchebag I sent him the message "GF... Home sweet Home."

So in answer to the concerns of the original post;: No, it's not a problem. I'd definitely find time to fit it into my schedule. :D
Jenni LaCroix
Doomheim
#2736 - 2014-08-30 15:55:59 UTC
suicide ganking was never a problem, the too many freighters in high sec are the problems
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2737 - 2014-08-31 01:36:54 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Yes - since in my view the bumping here is a criminal activity, it would not be an "exploit" for freighters or miners to self-gank as a way of avoiding bumping for 60 seconds. They would still be vulnerable to being shot, webbing, etc.... all the normal risk factors in high sec. They simply would not be subject to un-responded to entrapment allowing successive waves of gankers to hit them, in effect being warp scrambled without CONCORD response.


I'm sorry about earlier. I've eaten some food and feeling quite sober now.


Can you tell me what the difference is between these two scenarios:

#1:
(1) Make no changes to existing mechanics
(2) Use a webber alt to quickly align and warp


#2:
(A) Make changes to mechanics with this unexplained 60 sec bump immunity post getting shot at
(B) Use an alt to shoot yourself for bump immunity
(C) Use a webber alt to avoid getting shot at by quickly aligning and warping out


I am not understanding the advantage #2 gives anyone. It seems like the Orca pilot should've avoided the system, or bring a webber if he chooses to enter the lion's den.


Thanks you for completely missing the point. Criminal activity, and unlawful entrapment is by definition criminal activity, should draw CONCORD response. As CCP Falcon Put it "CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive."

My point is that CCP is failing to follow it's own game design by not punishing unlawful entrapment (which every police force in the world would combat).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2738 - 2014-08-31 01:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Veers Belvar wrote:

My point is that CCP is failing to follow it's own game design by not punishing unlawful entrapment (which every police force in the world would combat).


It's not unlawful.

[edit: I will clarify, in case you really are that obtuse. "unlawful" REQUIRES the activation of an offensive module. Moving your ship around is not inherently hostile.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2739 - 2014-08-31 01:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
Thanks you for completely missing the point. Criminal activity, and unlawful entrapment is by definition criminal activity, should draw CONCORD response.
…but it's not entrapment (much less anything unlawful) since you can, you know, just go away.

Quote:
My point is that CCP is failing to follow it's own game design by not punishing unlawful entrapment (which every police force in the world would combat).
Bad news: CONCORD is not a police force, and this is not “the world”. So your point makes no sense since you are asking CCP to follow a completely unrelated and irrelevant “design”.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#2740 - 2014-08-31 01:54:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

My point is that CCP is failing to follow it's own game design by not punishing unlawful entrapment (which every police force in the world would combat).


It's not unlawful.

[edit: I will clarify, in case you really are that obtuse. "unlawful" REQUIRES the activation of an offensive module. Moving your ship around is not inherently hostile.


Preventing you from warping, which is 100% equivalent to warp scrambling, is unlawful.