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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1681 - 2014-08-28 10:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
I need to address this issue of where one is being told to adapt.

Firstly if one lives in an area one has chosen, because they like the view or whatever, a major change ocurrs.

Then they find that randomly, when taking your car out, it is buried and crushed, in rotting fish as it leaves the driveway.

There is no way of preventing it, it is just bad luck. Your turn today, the Luck space faries have decided, tough!

If somehow you could somehow dodge it with skill, planning, tactics, well that would be better. But it is only luck.
You cannot adapt to luck apart from avoiding being where luck applies.

Would one choose to remain in that neighbourhood?

People are speaking with their actions, we are a small subset posting here, most do not even try to persuade CCP any more.


The real question is, that being as they are years away from the new space, where are all these people going to Go?
If they wanted to be there they would be there already.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#1682 - 2014-08-28 11:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
Durzel wrote:

The problem with your argument imo is that whilst I agree you can have a stalemate, in either case it's the aversion to risk that is the problem rather than the mechanics. If you won't engage because of ~the blob waiting to pounce~ then what difference does it make if you can jump in and be in jump range on the other side, besides the fact it means you can disengage at will? 1

Ultimately you either have subcaps to support your caps in order for them to be able to roll, or you don't. 2 If you presuppose that in any encounter with a major wormhole corp that there's a hidden blob somewhere waiting to pounce then chances are you weren't going to fight anyway. Why would you? These mechanics don't change whether the blob exists or not. Likewise, the other party might think you have a blob waiting too.

Also your argument about two opposing sides sat either side of a wormhole is basically exactly the same predicament that fights in k-space already deal with. The side that is set up on the gate has the advantage of establishing their position, and the other guys who jump in end up in random locations on the other side, potentially out of rep range, etc. 3

Wormholes are obviously somewhat different in mechanics because of the mass element, and polarisation, but wormholes also have no aggression timers so anyone in range of it can deaggress at any time if they're about to die. 4 The idea that you should be able to jump in a capital solo and - barring another cloaked capital on the other side - be able to jump back whenever you feel like at no risk is out of whack with the rest of Eve where making choices have repercussions - be they aggression timers, or being too far out to escape immediately.


1. That's how you probe your opponent, why do we have to go balls to the walls every time? Is that something you enjoy doing?
2. If you don't have an escape route every fight is "Little Bighorn". Is that something you enjoy doing?
3. You can still cyno caps in and out and you don't have mass problems to worry about.
4. WH trademark feature it doen't guarantee safety just a mechanic that can be defeated with careful planning and permits reinforcement denying if used smartly.

NEXT!
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1683 - 2014-08-28 11:58:44 UTC
Probably pointless posting this as it'll get lost in the white noise, but hey ho...

As these mass based jump changes are now live, CCP should give some serious thought to making it so that jumps from at least highsec use the old system of landing you in jump range on the other side.

Why? Because people jumping into wormholes for the first time and feeling "safe" is imho what draws a lot of new risk-averse people there. A big problem Eve has is the perception of risk - a lot of people will never venture into lowsec to PVE because they imagine that every gate has a camp on the other side. It doesn't matter that statistically the chances of landing in a gate camp vs the number of high/low entry points is very low - it only matters that it can happen, and that if it does happen to them then it's quite likely they'll lose their ship through not being able to get back to the gate.

With wormholes I genuinely feel like CCP got the "you're in jump range when you come in" aspect of it perfect the first time around, and matches the original intent. People jump in, explore a little bit, make some ISK and (try to) get back out before anyone sees them. Rendering highsec wormhole camps ineffectual by having it so that prey can jump in and immediately leave was a big part of this perception of safety.

It's no wonder then that so many people took T3s etc into wormholes when the same people wouldn't dare set foot in lowsec, which in mechanics terms (local, no bubbles, etc) is safer on paper. It's because they could manage the risk, and it wasn't disproportionate. Having whether you lose your ship or not when you click "Jump" come down to a roll of the dice is not a good motivator for naturally risk averse people.

So tl;dr - CCP ought to consider making k-space to w-space holes use the normal mechanics on inbound jumps, to encourage exploration by people who eschew low & null k-space because of the normal gate jump mechanics.
Gosti Kahanid
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1684 - 2014-08-28 12:04:09 UTC
Nox52 wrote:
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.

For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD.
It´s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn´t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.

So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don´t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...



Am I the only one who thinks of dreads with overdrives and MWDs and it just doesn't feel right on the inside?


(other than the fack that dreads with overdrives will die pretty fast....)


Did you ever see the fittings on closing-Battleships? It´s about bringing the right tool to the right situation, not about how you should fit your ship in other Situations.
Sure, if you get into a fight you will die faster when you´re using a Armor-Dread, but how was the Situation before the change? We lost more than one time a closing-crew because a enemy was sitting cloaked at the WH. This didn´t change. This is why we always have at least one ship as anti-interceptor ready while closing.

What did change is that you now should scout if the system is emty or if the enemy ist able to launch a fleet within one Minute.
Nox52
Pterygopalatine
#1685 - 2014-08-28 12:56:10 UTC
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
Nox52 wrote:
Gosti Kahanid wrote:
I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.

For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD.
It´s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn´t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.

So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don´t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...



Am I the only one who thinks of dreads with overdrives and MWDs and it just doesn't feel right on the inside?


(other than the fack that dreads with overdrives will die pretty fast....)


Did you ever see the fittings on closing-Battleships? It´s about bringing the right tool to the right situation, not about how you should fit your ship in other Situations.
Sure, if you get into a fight you will die faster when you´re using a Armor-Dread, but how was the Situation before the change? We lost more than one time a closing-crew because a enemy was sitting cloaked at the WH. This didn´t change. This is why we always have at least one ship as anti-interceptor ready while closing.

What did change is that you now should scout if the system is emty or if the enemy ist able to launch a fleet within one Minute.


You mean something like SB/Neut, MJD ECM plated and/or stabbed scorpions? Been there done that. I remain unconvinced that putting overdrives on a dread is a palatable change in the game. I mean if that abomination gets tackled I'd be tempted to let it die than throw good money after bad so to speak. In terms of bringing the right tool for the job I think you'd be better served by a carrier anyway, being faster and a cheaper hull.

And let's be honest anyone with two neurons sparking together previously scouted the hole up to the point that the dread was jumping back home.

Previously you'd run the risk of getting your closing fleet crossjumped by the generic 30+ t3 fleet ending up with a tackled dread in home wh and a dead wh. Now you end up with a tackled cap on the far side with no dead wh.

Shrugs. I think I'll go buy myself a scorpion.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#1686 - 2014-08-28 14:17:17 UTC
Saisin wrote:
calaretu wrote:


If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.

Exactly... and even a standoff still allows to farm in the wh while closely watching the neighbor... it is not like the only option is to log off...


Actually it is when you have multiple holes like this....
Jack Branigan
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#1687 - 2014-08-28 14:25:26 UTC
On another note.... Day two of having a wh to null in our c5....... no way to close it short of 30 bs jumps so we all logged off. SUPER AWESOME FUN!
CivilWars
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1688 - 2014-08-28 14:49:30 UTC
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.

Hidden Fremen liked your forum post:

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Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1689 - 2014-08-28 14:58:23 UTC
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.


In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react.
After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place.
So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight.

However,
with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1690 - 2014-08-28 15:05:31 UTC
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


I have some respect for people like you, who USED TO be in wormholes way way before myself, therefore having more experience. Cheers! BTW, why did you and other famous guys move to nullsec? Before the patch?
So. With due respect, I don't see where your logic is. I assume that a T3 fleet is still faster than a BS fleet?
I mean, Skyfighters and RLLO after them, used to be a bunch of awesome pvpers, awesome scouts, and overall proficient wormholers. I don't see how a small corp would have time to
1. scan a hole
2. warp BS's and caps to it
3. jump
and still be faster than you guys?

Understand that I'm not criticizing, that was just a doubt.
I guess I'll ask to those of you that still stay in Wspace (isogen5 for example), if you don't know the answer.

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
CivilWars
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1691 - 2014-08-28 15:09:32 UTC
Enthropic wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.


In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react.
After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place.
So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight.

However,
with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank

If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP.

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CivilWars
Half Empty
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#1692 - 2014-08-28 15:17:34 UTC
Rei Moon wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


I have some respect for people like you, who USED TO be in wormholes way way before myself, therefore having more experience. Cheers! BTW, why did you and other famous guys move to nullsec? Before the patch?
So. With due respect, I don't see where your logic is. I assume that a T3 fleet is still faster than a BS fleet?
I mean, Skyfighters and RLLO after them, used to be a bunch of awesome pvpers, awesome scouts, and overall proficient wormholers. I don't see how a small corp would have time to
1. scan a hole
2. warp BS's and caps to it
3. jump
and still be faster than you guys?

Understand that I'm not criticizing, that was just a doubt.
I guess I'll ask to those of you that still stay in Wspace (isogen5 for example), if you don't know the answer.

The reason I left is simple, I play this game as a social experiment more than anything else. As much as I am ashamed to admit it I have mining skills on this pilot, and actually used them at one time, simply because it was "fun" to sit in a belt on TS with a bunch of friends. If you look through my employment history you will see ties to IT, CFC, PL, CFC again(not my choice and didn't undock), and now Tri. There are also various WH endeavors along the way. Most/all of these decisions were made because of friendships, not game mechanics or EVE political leanings. My friends in SKY said they were forming RLLO, so I went. My friends in RLLO said they were leaving w-space, so I went. My friends said they were reforming RLLO to join Tri, so I went, and told them if they tried to make me move again I would hunt them down IRL.

As for your question about rolling away, who says it was a small corp? I can probably count on one hand the fights I was involved in while in both SKY and RLLO where any group chose to jump to us with somewhat equal numbers. And if people are rolling the right way they already have the BSes and cap on the hole with them when the scout jumps. See j-sig, check who lives there, jump, jump, jump, goodbye.

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Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1693 - 2014-08-28 15:20:25 UTC
Enthropic wrote:

what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.

But arguably there are many people who really want to play EVE, and who want to be in wormholes, and they want or need to do PvE to make ISK.

Up until now, that was easily possible with zero risk in subcapitals (no siege/triage, usually no sleeper scrams -> by the time someone jumps through that new hole, you are already back in your pos) and with just a little risk (and higher reward) in capitals. There was absolutely no need to do PvE when your system was not 100% secured. I have active neighbors today and can't close? Ok, I'll just do these sites tomorrow when it's 100% safe again.

That is why you basically never see anyone doing a site in w-space anymore. By the time you see them, they are already idling in their pos, if you see them at all. More often than not they have already cloaked up to make the system look inactive.

Now, when closing all open holes may be impossible or at least uneconomical over the long term, people have the choice to leave or to still try to make ISK under the new conditions, and that means exposing themselves to a risk greater than zero.

If even a fraction of current wormhole residents stay and are now forced to do PvE under the new conditions, there will be more (subcap) gank targets than before. Because before you could basically only catch someone who really didn't pay any attention.

Another point: I suspect that a significant portion of people who do nothing but bearing could become useful EVE players if they are forced. I noticed in myself that when I was alone in a c4 with constant access to 100% safe bearing, I would do it more than I really wanted because it was risk-free and it seemed wrong to let these sites go to waste. But when I was done with them, I usually didn't have the real life time resources left to do anything else, i.e. scanning for pvp.

My hope is that when all those people bearing away solo or with 2-3 guys find it now too dangerous to do so, they will migrate into real corporations. And by that I don't mean 50+ people, more like 5+. And then these people may find out that with just a few friends at your side, you can do fun things instead of bearing.

.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#1694 - 2014-08-28 15:22:42 UTC
These changes didn't make the game more fun. Things that aren't fun... why bother? Who cares about the isk? Inflation in eve is driven by subs and ease and cheapness of minerals - let's not pretend that it is a free market economy. Its fun, but its no wall street.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#1695 - 2014-08-28 15:22:45 UTC
CivilWars wrote:
Rei Moon wrote:
CivilWars wrote:
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.

In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.

TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.


I have some respect for people like you, who USED TO be in wormholes way way before myself, therefore having more experience. Cheers! BTW, why did you and other famous guys move to nullsec? Before the patch?
So. With due respect, I don't see where your logic is. I assume that a T3 fleet is still faster than a BS fleet?
I mean, Skyfighters and RLLO after them, used to be a bunch of awesome pvpers, awesome scouts, and overall proficient wormholers. I don't see how a small corp would have time to
1. scan a hole
2. warp BS's and caps to it
3. jump
and still be faster than you guys?

Understand that I'm not criticizing, that was just a doubt.
I guess I'll ask to those of you that still stay in Wspace (isogen5 for example), if you don't know the answer.

The reason I left is simple, I play this game as a social experiment more than anything else. As much as I am ashamed to admit it I have mining skills on this pilot, and actually used them at one time, simply because it was "fun" to sit in a belt on TS with a bunch of friends. If you look through my employment history you will see ties to IT, CFC, PL, CFC again(not my choice and didn't undock), and now Tri. There are also various WH endeavors along the way. Most/all of these decisions were made because of friendships, not game mechanics or EVE political leanings. My friends in SKY said they were forming RLLO, so I went. My friends in RLLO said they were leaving w-space, so I went. My friends said they were reforming RLLO to join Tri, so I went, and told them if they tried to make me move again I would hunt them down IRL.

As for your question about rolling away, who says it was a small corp? I can probably count on one hand the fights I was involved in while in both SKY and RLLO where any group chose to jump to us with somewhat equal numbers. And if people are rolling the right way they already have the BSes and cap on the hole with them when the scout jumps. See j-sig, check who lives there, jump, jump, jump, goodbye.


TY for the answer.

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Glyndi
Doom Generation
Best Intentions.
#1696 - 2014-08-28 15:49:28 UTC
When using the argument that you couldnt scan the sig down before the hole got rolled. Keep in mind EVERYONE in WSpace rage rolls to find a quick route to KSpace when the situation calls for it. This could be for fuel, hauling out loots, ship replenishment etc...

Assuming that someone sees who owns the hole and is 'affraid' of that group is the primary decision for rolling it is ignorant. None of those arguments are absolute, there is always other motives.

For about 5 hours one day we rage rolled specifically looking for Isogen 5 cuz I ♡ Foedus. I'm sure there were a lot of angry groups seeing a sig pop up and vanish seconds later. Our intent was PvP....but at that time a specific group.
Chandoraa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1697 - 2014-08-28 15:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Chandoraa
From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people here relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.

I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:

Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM
Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km
Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km
Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km
Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km
Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km

I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.

Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?

Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon.
CivilWars
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1698 - 2014-08-28 15:53:23 UTC
Glyndi wrote:
When using the argument that you couldnt scan the sig down before the hole got rolled. Keep in mind EVERYONE in WSpace rage rolls to find a quick route to KSpace when the situation calls for it. This could be for fuel, hauling out loots, ship replenishment etc...

Assuming that someone sees who owns the hole and is 'affraid' of that group is the primary decision for rolling it is ignorant. None of those arguments are absolute, there is always other motives.

For about 5 hours one day we rage rolled specifically looking for Isogen 5 cuz I ♡ Foedus. I'm sure there were a lot of angry groups seeing a sig pop up and vanish seconds later. Our intent was PvP....but at that time a specific group.

For sure possible, BUT when you see their tag on d-scan, figure out who it was, pop in their pub channel(or talk to them in ours since almost everyone hangs out there anyway), and they tell you they rolled because they were scurr then they were scurr. Not saying that is the ONLY reason people rolled away from our home, but I am saying it is a bad mechanic, once again in my opinion, that someone can roll away before you can even get the hole scanned regardless of why they rolled.

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1699 - 2014-08-28 16:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Enthropic wrote:

what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.

But arguably there are many people who really want to play EVE, and who want to be in wormholes, and they want or need to do PvE to make ISK.

Up until now, that was easily possible with zero risk in subcapitals (no siege/triage, usually no sleeper scrams -> by the time someone jumps through that new hole, you are already back in your pos) and with just a little risk (and higher reward) in capitals. There was absolutely no need to do PvE when your system was not 100% secured. I have active neighbors today and can't close? Ok, I'll just do these sites tomorrow when it's 100% safe again.

That is why you basically never see anyone doing a site in w-space anymore. By the time you see them, they are already idling in their pos, if you see them at all. More often than not they have already cloaked up to make the system look inactive.

Now, when closing all open holes may be impossible or at least uneconomical over the long term, people have the choice to leave or to still try to make ISK under the new conditions, and that means exposing themselves to a risk greater than zero.

If even a fraction of current wormhole residents stay and are now forced to do PvE under the new conditions, there will be more (subcap) gank targets than before. Because before you could basically only catch someone who really didn't pay any attention.

Another point: I suspect that a significant portion of people who do nothing but bearing could become useful EVE players if they are forced. I noticed in myself that when I was alone in a c4 with constant access to 100% safe bearing, I would do it more than I really wanted because it was risk-free and it seemed wrong to let these sites go to waste. But when I was done with them, I usually didn't have the real life time resources left to do anything else, i.e. scanning for pvp.

My hope is that when all those people bearing away solo or with 2-3 guys find it now too dangerous to do so, they will migrate into real corporations. And by that I don't mean 50+ people, more like 5+. And then these people may find out that with just a few friends at your side, you can do fun things instead of bearing.



I am sorry, but really.....
There are so many wrong assumptions and misinformation in here, I hardly know where to begin.

Just for one sleepers do prevent warping. Whether you wish to define it as scrambling or disrupting is irrelevant. You still are very dead when you get dropped.
And If you are in a low class hole like a c1 or 2 where you Are not, there is nothing worth your time farming. Mining for example is hardly worth it, and the sites, well, if you have run any you will know already.

I am sure others will point out the other fallacies and misinformation in your post, But I will not, as it does not move this issue towards s successful conclusion.


You may have opinions, but where they conflict so vastly with reality, then they really are worth keeping to yourself.
Especially when you discuss doing C4 sites solo, and you were never unable to warp off? And risk free? Pull the other one it has bells on it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Glyndi
Doom Generation
Best Intentions.
#1700 - 2014-08-28 16:14:57 UTC
CivilWars wrote:
Glyndi wrote:
When using the argument that you couldnt scan the sig down before the hole got rolled. Keep in mind EVERYONE in WSpace rage rolls to find a quick route to KSpace when the situation calls for it. This could be for fuel, hauling out loots, ship replenishment etc...

Assuming that someone sees who owns the hole and is 'affraid' of that group is the primary decision for rolling it is ignorant. None of those arguments are absolute, there is always other motives.

For about 5 hours one day we rage rolled specifically looking for Isogen 5 cuz I ♡ Foedus. I'm sure there were a lot of angry groups seeing a sig pop up and vanish seconds later. Our intent was PvP....but at that time a specific group.

For sure possible, BUT when you see their tag on d-scan, figure out who it was, pop in their pub channel(or talk to them in ours since almost everyone hangs out there anyway), and they tell you they rolled because they were scurr then they were scurr. Not saying that is the ONLY reason people rolled away from our home, but I am saying it is a bad mechanic, once again in my opinion, that someone can roll away before you can even get the hole scanned regardless of why they rolled.


Of course, not everyone plays the same EVE you and I do. My group is small but we have never backed down from any group when it came to having some good old-fashioned brawling. Sure we've asked for smaller numbers and perhaps a ship down every so often. We arent going to purposely suicide into a larger fleet, we have but its not always our intent. Mind set of the group will dictate their actions.

Eventually they will get caught be it Bobs will or a silly mistake. The point is this new mass mechanic will cause/ has caused those groups to just leave now...according to hear say. Now you wont ever get lucky and catch those people rolling their hole..they wont be there.