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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1581 - 2014-08-27 10:23:55 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit.


Seriously ...

Adapting to the change may lead many small/mid sized wormhole corps to simply leave w-space and probably leaving the game.

Theses changes makes farming in wspace almost impossible. The risk/reward balance is too unbalanced.

Let's draw for you the big picture :

You have done a patch for w-space that represents maybe 5% of your customer base.
95% of theses 5% told you how and why theses changes are bad.

You have not taken this into account. The current patch is exactly the same as the blog post.

This patch leads to less w-space activity.

I hope your are monitoring activity in w-space, you will se less activity in the coming weeks.

About the forum breaked rules, this is what happens when you stay blinded.

We have not read ANY explanations about the REASONS of theses changes. We have given to you A LOT of comments, you given NOTHING. This is very rude leading to rude reactions.


This is exactly the reason why I have been rude.

They ask for feedback and when we give constructive feedback they completely disregard it.

We start being rude and they tell us to post constructively etc...
What difference does it make when they clearly give no fucks about what we have to say.

They refuse to listen to reason.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1582 - 2014-08-27 10:25:36 UTC
This change greatly reduces the ability for a capsuleer to manipulate his environment for both pvp and pve. this change has already forced multiple wh corps out of wh space and as the pvp opportunities move out with them, more are following.

the random element added removes meaning to losses and kills. there is no way to reduce, remove or compensate for this like you can on cynos for example; people have figured out how to land JF within 0 of undock without bumping even though there is a 5km random zone it can land in. another example is the random mass on whs where knowledge is able to overcome the random nature. in this change there is no way to do this, your actions have no meaning.

every wh corp has that one or two guys everyone knows will get a hole rolled without screwing up. they trust that person 100% and they are prized and respected for that skill. I used to be that guy but with this change there isnt any way for skill and knowledge to overcome this, just brute force and raw numbers.

this change takes away some of the ability for us effect our environment, the very essence of eve. a little bit of eve died with this change.

there is your feedback for your devs. now lets look at you job as a community manager.

we are being treated like the badguys, like children who doesn't know what's good for them and that is the source of the rants and negative posts (not counting the troll attemps by some npc/null toons)

Fozzie is a dev, he started this thread and the ratio of solid, constructive and only slightly angry feedback to unhelpfull posts is crazy good for ANYWHERE on these forums if you consider exactly how unpopular this change is. there has been some amazingly good feedback especially the last few pages but people are tired of hopping from one official thread to the next only to be told no, this isnt the official OFFICIAL thread and anything you've said here doesn't matter. how is it that you can't see the frustration? this is not a few days or even a week of frustration either. this isnt unjustified knee jerk tantrum either. This is a month of one sided ccp telling us this is how its going to be and we are going shut up, sit down and like it.

ccp Falcon, how much of this thread have you read? when did you become aware of this thread? Who else at ccp knows how the wh community ar large feels about this? we need to know that the wh community isnt just some joke or embarrising accident that ccp is finally getting around to cleaning up.

because if you treat the wh community as expendable then guess what, most of them will be happy to prove just how expendable they are.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
#1583 - 2014-08-27 10:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Nolte
Terrorfrodo wrote:
I like this change and so do most likely more than 5% of all wormholers.

XGADuke wrote:
This is all fine and well, however lets say the wormhole is empty, the residents are offline or not interested. We just need to roll again right?

Spotted your mistake there. With the vast number of holes now everywhere, there are so many connections in virtually every chain that you have a higher chance to find an active system by simply scanning and scouting than by rolling your static.

And, very importantly, the new way scales much better with corp size: Only a few people can actively roll, but a lot of people can spread out and explore a chain.

Ok, so you didn't find anything. Finding active systems has been hard for a long time now. But this change didn't make it harder.

The new level of interconnectedness, combined with how fast and easy scanning is nowadays, makes rolling basically obsolete. All the crybabies here are just either too stuck in their old crusty ways or their real concern is that their safe farming is now also obsolete.


Yes - that´s right a lot of people can scan and explore the chains ... but what is the result of that when you have scouts ten wormholes away from home ?
You spread your forces thin, every hole you have to cross to get to your content given your corp size requires at least one scout in every hole further away from home - I´m aware if you are abel to get 40 T3´s in fleet you don´t have to deal with that, there aren´t that many entities who can do the same ... well they´ll likely scout too, becuase they don´t wanna cut of from their home system by getting one of their connections collapsed ... but if you cap out at around 10 T3´s scouts are a necessity ... not only are there lots of groups who can field the same and wait for you to spring their trap for you ... it also is gonna reduce greatly the force you can bring into fights, then every scout is a pilot who potentially could field another ship, therefore reducing your combat ability ... a simple front and back scout normally used in low and null just can´t get the job done in w-space ... we have a permanently shifting environment ... which requires constant verification ... that only scouts can deliver - we got no system activity chart jump count or api crap because we don´t know to which w-system we are connected unless we jump a scout into it ...
i don´t know what the devs are thinking how far we are able to venture into w-space away from home ... but there is hard cap to the distance and that is your member count (therefore the number of scouts you have combined with the force you need to bring to be able to fight) ... it makes no sense to scan the the chain down to find a target in last system and then only to have one pilot left to fight whatever there is waiting for you ... so most w-space residents are gonna roll their static when there forces are gonna spread to thin ... then whatever there might be waiting for them further down the rabbit hole is something they simply can´t engage. And this change isn´t gonna magically improve the number of pilots you have at your disposal ... it is in fact gonna do the exact opposite ... with the introduction of more random w-spcae connection your forces are gonna spread even thiner therefore effectivley reducing the length of your cahin in whcih your are still able to act ...
then what everyone living in w-space is clear and every schould be clear to - is the fact that once you are unable to get back your fleet home again your assets stored in the POS in your home system are most likely lost ... at the latest when your pos runs out of fuel ... (everybody´s got safety measures, in form of scous sitting at home, to avoid that ... but things can go wrong ..)

I came to believe that the devs didn´t give their changes a lot of thought exspecially the synergies all of their changes are gonna have seems to have evaded their attention ...
and therefore they aren´t gonna fulfill the intentions with which they were originally brought into the game.

BTW (as should be clear by now through my previous post) I. like roughly 95% of the w-space community do not like this change one tiny bit
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1584 - 2014-08-27 10:50:14 UTC
This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.

After the first 24 pages the points why this change is a bad thing came down to:

1. Rage rolling holes takes a few more people now, meaning either more time or resources.
2. Caps are less useful as you cannot clump them together to do Clarion Call -esque tactics everywhere.
3. WH jumping is the only mechanic which has this variation of jump distance based on mass.

Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?

Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.

For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.

What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#1585 - 2014-08-27 10:52:11 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.

After the first 24 pages the points why this change is a bad thing came down to:

1. Rage rolling holes takes a few more people now, meaning either more time or resources.
2. Caps are less useful as you cannot clump them together to do Clarion Call -esque tactics everywhere.
3. WH jumping is the only mechanic which has this variation of jump distance based on mass.

Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?

Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.

For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.

What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change.


Ever been into wormholes?

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
poerkie
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#1586 - 2014-08-27 10:58:44 UTC
rage rolling is boring anyway... Deep chaining FTW didnt had so many kills in a while including 3.8 bil fit marauders and a prophecy from some random drunken german guy
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#1587 - 2014-08-27 10:58:51 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ever been into wormholes?


Yes, yes he has!

once..
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#1588 - 2014-08-27 11:01:40 UTC
Ha, you guys are wrong! This wasn't a feed-back thread it was a pressure releasing valve/thread. Cool
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1589 - 2014-08-27 11:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Adrie Atticus wrote:
This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.



Self entitled or not, whether people were right or wrong isn't really the point, pertinent questions were raised backed up with reasoning in a feedback thread and not only ignored* but later snubbed, at which point thing got a bit out of hand.



* I can understand Fozzie is working on a million things at this point as well as heavily investing time in AT, but ateast I'd have expected something along the lines of acknowledgement of the issues and that it would be looked at/addressed even if that was post patch, instead of what basically amounts to the finger that we have had from any CCP responses here.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1590 - 2014-08-27 11:07:56 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.

After the first 24 pages the points why this change is a bad thing came down to:

1. Rage rolling holes takes a few more people now, meaning either more time or resources.
2. Caps are less useful as you cannot clump them together to do Clarion Call -esque tactics everywhere.
3. WH jumping is the only mechanic which has this variation of jump distance based on mass.

Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?

Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.

For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.

What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change.


Ever been into wormholes?

Doubtful, I have had to correct DOZENS of misconceptions in my own corp regarding wormholes and these are guys that have been playing for 10 YEARS. I shudder to think what misconceptions ccp has if this joker from bastion is any indication. even if ccp has the benefit of having designed the game and have access to statistics.

the more I look at this the bigger a joke it becomes; ccp, null, eve the whole thing.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1591 - 2014-08-27 11:18:01 UTC
BeanBagKing wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ever been into wormholes?


Yes, yes he has!

once..


Don't worry, I post on the goonpet toon just to generate tears.

But hey at least you know how to use a killboard so I assume you are capable of reading the post and forming a proper response.
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#1592 - 2014-08-27 11:32:36 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
BeanBagKing wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ever been into wormholes?


Yes, yes he has!

once..


Don't worry, I post on the goonpet toon just to generate tears.

But hey at least you know how to use a killboard so I assume you are capable of reading the post and forming a proper response.


A proper response for a wall of nonsense? Yes Bean, I challenge you to do that Lol
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1593 - 2014-08-27 11:45:35 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
BeanBagKing wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Ever been into wormholes?


Yes, yes he has!

once..


Don't worry, I post on the goonpet toon just to generate tears.

But hey at least you know how to use a killboard so I assume you are capable of reading the post and forming a proper response.

So you are actively trolling an official feedback thread.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1594 - 2014-08-27 11:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Falcon wrote:
Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change.

A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit.

This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.

If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks.

So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post:

Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple.

We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules.

Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules.




Respectfully, I suggest that you read a little more closely and mentally filter out the obvious trolls and the response to those, remember trolls solicit agressive responses.

What you have left, are clear discussions of the change, the effects of the change, why the introduction of a luck mechanic makes adaptation impossible, and the feelings created from the way this issue has been handled and forced upon us, and the clear realisation that someone in your company decided this was going to happen no matter what.

This has seriously damaged the credibility of your company, and the credibility of your staff.

I do feel sorry for whoever has been put on the firing line, to take all the bullets and criticism.

Whether Fozzie was or was not the final arbitor and ultimately responsible, he is the one who was put in the crosshairs, a sacrificial goat. That is entirely CCP's responsibility.

Do not mistake the reaction of many of the wormhole community as anger.

The feeling of most is either grave disappointment, or disgust. AND despair.

Re read the thread with that in mind, and please do not compound the error, by asking us to repost everything in the general hyperion forum, ignoring all of this, as anything we say will be swamped and lost within the toxic trolls, and you really will only then raise the emotions to fever pitch.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
CCP Falcon
#1595 - 2014-08-27 12:01:03 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.


I think part of the frustration comes that we appear to be talking past each other; during the wormhole townhall, numerous people from both big and small corps outlined scenarios to CCP Fozzie in which they felt people would behave in a much more risk averse way after the changes, and thus generate less content. He was then asked for the reasons for the change - repeatedly - he was either unable or unwilling to articulate these.

On the feedback thing - I've noticed that camping highsec wormholes is now much more of a thing (HIC+webber+inties) - apart from generating more kills of new explorers, I'm not sure this is a great change. Ultimately I think if you want to stick to this spawning distance thing, you are also going to factor in the types of space a particular wormhole links between.


Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling.

I'll pass this on directly to development. Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Naglerr
235MeV
#1596 - 2014-08-27 12:05:00 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Necharo Rackham wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.


I think part of the frustration comes that we appear to be talking past each other; during the wormhole townhall, numerous people from both big and small corps outlined scenarios to CCP Fozzie in which they felt people would behave in a much more risk averse way after the changes, and thus generate less content. He was then asked for the reasons for the change - repeatedly - he was either unable or unwilling to articulate these.

On the feedback thing - I've noticed that camping highsec wormholes is now much more of a thing (HIC+webber+inties) - apart from generating more kills of new explorers, I'm not sure this is a great change. Ultimately I think if you want to stick to this spawning distance thing, you are also going to factor in the types of space a particular wormhole links between.


Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling.

I'll pass this on directly to development. Smile



CCP Falcon, would it be possible to give us a timeframe for an expected response from the Devs who work directly on development regarding the feedback you are passing to them?
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#1597 - 2014-08-27 12:13:04 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling.

I'll pass this on directly to development. Smile


Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community.

Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.

Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1598 - 2014-08-27 12:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Seraph Essael wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling.

I'll pass this on directly to development. Smile


Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community.

Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.

Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.



The Idea has some merit as long as it was based on solid mechanics and not just some random chance of dying badly.
The alternate version of this with the additional feature of speed and direction of wormhole entry determines distance and exit path, also has good possibilities,and would be preferable, as it strengthens the relationship between player generated cause and effect.
Anything that destroys this relationship will be equally unwanted.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1599 - 2014-08-27 12:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Oh goody discussion time again.

Adrie Atticus wrote:

Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?


Ok so the big picture I'd like you to look at this from different angles of w-space can you please look at it from the pov of. a big c5 or c6 group. a small 5 to 20 man low class wh who only have 2 to 4 people online and a farming group in c5 or c6 space. Then also take in to account how the frig wh's (which are literally everywhere) will affect these groups. Now there is risk and there is RISK for instance noho bhaals deep fleet is probably 40 to 50b that we put on the line, and we often do if we think there a semi reasonable chance to win. thats acceptable risk. having caps spread all over the place moves it from acceptable risk to unacceptable meaning we're alot less likely to risk it.

Adrie Atticus wrote:
Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.


I've already said about risk aversion. we arent flying hawks and hyena's here. could you explain why caps should not be a first response ship for us wormhole people maybe tell us exactly what should be a first response ship? and why? The trade a cap for a cap is also a very viable tactic if say... you trap there carrier and t3 in your wh where you have couple dreads and stop them bringing there dreads in you trade a potentially cheap empty cap hull for a t3 fleet and expensive triage. if you go bhaals deep there is no blissfully safe its win big lose big (but great fun).

Adrie Atticus wrote:

For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.


wtf has this to do with wh's???

Adrie Atticus wrote:

What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change.


Not sure wtf this has to do with wh mass and distance but hell rest of your stuff has been bs so what ever.

You seem to be focusingon caps which yes will be a issue here for wh space but what about the smaller groups in lower class wh's do you feel it will be safe for them? have you considered how rolling will be for them with these changes and the frig wh's?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Bleedingthrough
#1600 - 2014-08-27 12:42:25 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:

Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.

Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.


No, not like this.
The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other)