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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1501 - 2014-08-26 21:21:14 UTC
Like the change so far, jumping with my T3 has gotten more convenient, no more spawning <2km from wh :)

.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1502 - 2014-08-26 21:22:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Enthropic wrote:

Or maybe literally rather almost EVERYONE WHO LIVES IN WH SPACE MAYBE? Maybe you read that thread and figure out for yourself what the majority of people here want?


Thing is sometimes what everyone wants isn't the best thing to actually do... in which case you'd expect some kind of explanation and reasoning to be presented with some solid counter points to the issues raised... instead we get silence (which given how well written some people's posts have been basically tells me there isn't a strong counter argument for want of any other explanation) a meaningless canned statement and the feature rammed through any way. If this is the way that things are going to be done I can't see that much of a future for myself with the game and its with a heavy heart I even contemplate that as a possibility.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1503 - 2014-08-26 21:24:52 UTC
So before this change i would jump in, bookmark, map, Keep at range, prop, cloak

Now it jump in, bookmark, map, cloak

Before I had a chance of getting caught, now its almost impossible to catch a covops.

So Much Space
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1504 - 2014-08-26 21:28:05 UTC
Also the increase in WH's is FANTASTIC........Except for the fact the holes we are getting are dead and dying.....guess what its a ***** to roll for no good reason

Also found a farming fleet today......through a frig hole.........cant do jack **** against that in frigs

So Much Space
Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1505 - 2014-08-26 21:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Enthropic
Faren Shalni wrote:
Also the increase in WH's is FANTASTIC........Except for the fact the holes we are getting are dead and dying.....guess what its a ***** to roll for no good reason

Also found a farming fleet today......through a frig hole.........cant do jack **** against that in frigs


Lol no kidding. brilliant, isnt it? ^^
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#1506 - 2014-08-26 22:05:01 UTC
Durzel wrote:
...

Whether people are upset that they can't just bear in peace while their corpies are asleep by critting/collapsing their incoming holes in safety is a secondary consideration - but let's not pretend this is about PvP and the precious risk-averse small corps who suddenly won't commit to fights they didn't commit to before anyway, or some nonsense about solo/small entities jumping caps with next to no support because carriers are magic force mulitpliers or some ****.

The elephant in the room that people are secretly annoyed about with this change is that:

  1. People suddenly can't bear safely by closing up holes with just 1 or 2 accounts
  2. People can't have weak ass fights on wormholes safe in the knowledge they can just jump in and already be in jump range to jump back out again if they get shot too much


None of this has anything to do with meaningful PvP really, it's just another form of risk aversion that people aren't prepared to admit is what it is.

People who are risk averse and wouldn't have warped to a wormhole to collapse it when you connected to them pre-Hyperion are going to continue not doing so, so nothing changes.

edit: People talking about cynos throwing ships 10km+ out from the cyno are completely disregarding the fact that if you jump to a cyno in a cap where are you going to go from there if you get tackled? You can't jump back out like you can if you're sat on a wormhole, you can't even use a gate. Don't conflate the two completely different paradigms.

Well said!

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1507 - 2014-08-26 22:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: OMEGA REDUX
i wonder how long the above post of mine lasts before some ccp or isd deletes it because they want to be treated with oh so much respect but wont treat us the same.

edit: this is the reason i dont care if i get banned from posting on the forums http://i.imgur.com/jSSfu4V.jpg oh and i pay with plex so no need to worry about actually cancelling anything as i just don't buy plex
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1508 - 2014-08-26 22:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Saisin wrote:

Well said!


Think for a second - every time you've collapsed your static so as to be able to bear - how many of those times has there either been someone there to catch your would have been slowboating/bouncing collapsing capital or its been likely there might have been someone there to catch it?

Unfortunately I can't agree with Durzel - this has little to do with 1-2 people collapsing wormholes to bear - the times when this impacts that other than to unnecessarily increase the time to perform that are edge cases when you might happen to be open to another group that is both larger than you and also happens to be active at that time. It would be like focusing on that 1 time a "wonder" drug has cured a cancer patient and ignoring the 99 other patients in the trial that were killed by it and then using that drug as the standard way to treat cancer patients - in isolation it sounds great, widen the scope and its another story. For the sake of fringe cases a whole load of additional tedium is being added to the nominal case.

His second point is a bit more of a mixed one as that can be a bit of a weak scenario but also it can enable an entity to test the waters in a fight against someone they know on paper they can't possibly beat on an open field engagement with the potential for unexpected outcomes.

Regarding cynos - one use for them is to move capitals about either to drop them on a station or POS - should cynos be changed so that depending on mass your always dropped out of docking range? (Also jump freighters and how they are moved about).
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1509 - 2014-08-26 22:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Rroff wrote:
Saisin wrote:

Well said!


Think for a second - every time you've collapsed your static so as to be able to bear - how many of those times has there either been someone there to catch your would have been slowboating/bouncing collapsing capital or its been likely there might have been someone there to catch it?

Unfortunately I can't agree with Durzel - this has little to do with 1-2 people collapsing wormholes to bear - the times when this impacts that other than to unnecessarily increase the time to perform that are edge cases when you might happen to be open to another group that is both larger than you and also happens to be active at that time. It would be like focusing on that 1 time a "wonder" drug has cured a cancer patient and ignoring the 99 other patients in the trial that were killed by it and then using that drug as the standard way to treat cancer patients - in isolation it sounds great, widen the scope and its another story. For the sake of fringe cases a whole load of additional tedium is being added to the nominal case.

His second point is a bit more of a mixed one as that can be a bit of a weak scenario but also it can enable an entity to test the waters in a fight against someone they know on paper they can't possibly beat on an open field engagement with the potential for unexpected outcomes.

Regarding cynos - one use for them is to move capitals about either to drop them on a station or POS - should cynos be changed so that depending on mass your always dropped out of docking range? (Also jump freighters and how they are moved about).



Wishing luck based mechanics on other areas of eve is sorely tempting considering how we have been treated, but introducing more of this horribly destructive and harmful mechanic, where you live or die due to the RNG, will do nothing for their game enjoyment, or player retention.

After all no one likes to see all their efforts destroyed just due to "bad luck" with no option to mitigate against it through skill training tactics or choices.

So in short it is bad enough in wormholes without it infecting new areas, like Ebola, one just does not wish it upon even your worst enemy.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1510 - 2014-08-26 23:05:29 UTC
Definitely wouldn't wish that kind of cyno change (none the least I move enough caps/blackops around lowsec as it is) but it is in many ways comparable to implementing that kind of change.
Ned Black
Driders
#1511 - 2014-08-26 23:08:17 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.

I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out.

If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.

Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that.

While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.



Whats the point?

You guys did not listen when you had the feedback handed to you time and time again... why would you listen now?

Posting in this thread was a complete waste of time... I really can't be arsed wasting my time a second time.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1512 - 2014-08-26 23:10:33 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.

what the actual fk mate?
this IS the feedback thread and the feedback is the same as it has been since the second this change was announced: WE HATE IT.
do you guys have a number of threads we need to copy and paste our distaste into before you listen? if so, please tell us what it is.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Naglerr
235MeV
#1513 - 2014-08-26 23:30:34 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.

I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out.

If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.

Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that.

While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.



Meh, I'll just make sure my subscriptions aren't set to auto-renew instead. You know what you need to do.
Glyndi
Doom Generation
Best Intentions.
#1514 - 2014-08-26 23:48:24 UTC
Its Obama-care all over again. "Oh you dont want this? Too bad, we know whats best for you."


Thanks Obama!!
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#1515 - 2014-08-26 23:52:43 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
So before this change i would jump in, bookmark, map, Keep at range, prop, cloak

Now it jump in, bookmark, map, cloak

Before I had a chance of getting caught, now its almost impossible to catch a covops.


Yup thats a great thing about teh change. Also we rolled our static last night and it wasnt too much extra trouble. Just had to bounce the orca to a tac... Easy Peezy!

Also yeah the extra WHs are great. WHs are going to be great PVP grounds!

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#1516 - 2014-08-26 23:56:31 UTC
Naglerr wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.

I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out.

If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.

Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that.

While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.



Meh, I'll just make sure my subscriptions aren't set to auto-renew instead. You know what you need to do.



LOL Dont listen to trolls CCP! The changes are awesome and just the shake up that wormhole space needs, a couple of little bugs but meh... Nothing we cant deal with though... KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK GUYS!

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Syndiaan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1517 - 2014-08-27 00:01:35 UTC
Glyndi wrote:
Its Obama-care all over again. "Oh you dont want this? Too bad, we know whats best for you."


Thanks Obama!!


I would pay money to give that more + likes.
Beliar Gray
I'm quitting Eve PV Rock I want to talk with you
#1518 - 2014-08-27 00:27:18 UTC
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers.
Bleedingthrough
#1519 - 2014-08-27 00:29:07 UTC
calaretu wrote:

Eh. Kite? Snipe? Something else creative? I am sure you guys have more doctrines than pure brawling. The killmail you link is exactly why this change is a good thing. Also have scouts so you know what you jump into so you dont jump a vigi into a t3 sitting and waiting.


I think we have a common ground here: I would love to have a broader spectrum of tactical options and
a WH mechanic that supports them. However, I do not agree that THIS change adds any of this.

In this regard someone in this thread made a damn good proposition:
Make the spawn distant directly proportional to the speed (and maybe inversely proportional to the mass) upon entering.
Maybe also take the entry vector into account.

This certainly has some flaws as well that need to be addressed, but this would truly add something new without destroying the perfectly fine old ways of doing things. It is also exciting because FCs can get creative and come up with doctrines and tactics exploiting these mechanic and combining it with the "old" game of mass and polarization.

Bottom line is: emergent behavior can only spark if the players are able to control their surroundings and if the surroundings are sufficient complex. The change introduced in this patch does the opposite: eliminating tactical options and introducing random deaths.
Ben Li
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1520 - 2014-08-27 00:29:46 UTC
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers.