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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1381 - 2014-08-25 22:32:14 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Hang on?
Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience?
Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage?

Wow.

Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years.Roll


I'm fine with people doing that as long as they can back it up and happy with me returning the favour.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Alundil
Rolled Out
#1382 - 2014-08-25 22:35:02 UTC
corbexx wrote:
right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.

So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.

ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.

Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.

If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.

Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.

Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.

Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.

Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.

If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.

You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.

TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.

I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.

I have purposely ignored this thread for a week or two in the hopes than an absence (or cooling down period) would help see things in a different light.

Then I come back to it and find myself in the midst of a bunch of people arguing endlessly about "this, no that, your risk adverse" and other nonsense with terrible spelling, even worse grammar and absolutely atrocious logic I come to this thread.

Thank you corbexx for writing this magnificent post and saving me the time and effort of doing so myself (because I'll be needing that time to roll for more content).

This - so much this.

I'm right behind you
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1383 - 2014-08-25 22:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
corbexx wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Hang on?
Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience?
Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage?

Wow.

Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years.Roll


I'm fine with people doing that as long as they can back it up and happy with me returning the favour.



I am truly impressed with your patience, If I was on the CSM I am afraid, That I would be diplomatic up to a point and then suddenly people would be running for cover.Roll

However things work out, thank you for all your efforts, and good luck where you can get them to see the light.

Get well soon.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1384 - 2014-08-25 22:58:43 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Rroff wrote:

Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol

point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here


Going to assume you haven't lived in wh space at this point So to plagiarize and this isn't a direct attack at you.

Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.

I'll leave you now to go and strike them down in the comments on http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-unknown-virgins


sorry about that, had to go to a meeting

the mittani is wrong and that article is hot buttered sewage because he's falling into the same trap that you guys are -- your alliance does not indicate your ability to speak about a subject

though if you must know

I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static

this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument

how is ccp supposed to see your side when all you can say is "you haven't lived it, you have no say in the matter"
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1385 - 2014-08-25 23:03:58 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
corbexx wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Hang on?
Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience?
Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage?

Wow.

Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years.Roll

I'm fine with people doing that as long as they can back it up and happy with me returning the favour.

I am truly impressed with your patience, If I was on the CSM I am afraid, That I would be diplomatic up to a point and then suddenly people would be running for cover.Roll
However things work out, thank you for all your efforts, and good luck where you can get them to see the light.

I'd not wanted to get involved in yet another troll session, but the Goonswarm individual's take on a wormhole doesn't seem to have any bearing in what the disconnect of living without a safety net does to us..

Imagining what it's like to live in a wormhole is nothing like the isolation, the unknown dangers, and the sheer lack of anchor-points that no local, no gates, and no stations does to your perception of space inside a wormhole. We do things to improve this, but in the end the perception of where you are and where "safety" lies is completely different than in any area of K-space I've been to.

There is no fast way to get help, no backup unless your friends are already in there with you and a phone call away, and no way out unless you probe it down, and then you know someone may already be there, waiting, ready to jump you. Or it could just be a completely empty system with a dead stick at planet IV, moon 2. Well, and 17 sigs and another 38 anomalies, but who's counting?
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1386 - 2014-08-25 23:07:48 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Rroff wrote:

Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol

point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here


Going to assume you haven't lived in wh space at this point So to plagiarize and this isn't a direct attack at you.

Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.

I'll leave you now to go and strike them down in the comments on http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-unknown-virgins


sorry about that, had to go to a meeting

the mittani is wrong and that article is hot buttered sewage because he's falling into the same trap that you guys are -- your alliance does not indicate your ability to speak about a subject

though if you must know

I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static

this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument

how is ccp supposed to see your side when all you can say is "you haven't lived it, you have no say in the matter"



ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1387 - 2014-08-25 23:10:28 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
I'd not wanted to get involved in yet another troll session, but the Goonswarm individual's take on a wormhole doesn't seem to have any bearing in what the disconnect of living without a safety net does to us..

Imagining what it's like to live in a wormhole is nothing like the isolation, the unknown dangers, and the sheer lack of anchor-points that no local, no gates, and no stations does to your perception of space inside a wormhole. We do things to improve this, but in the end the perception of where you are and where "safety" lies is completely different than in any area of K-space I've been to.

There is no fast way to get help, no backup unless your friends are already in there with you and a phone call away, and no way out unless you probe it down, and then you know someone may already be there, waiting, ready to jump you. Or it could just be a completely empty system with a dead stick at planet IV, moon 2. Well, and 17 sigs and another 38 anomalies, but who's counting?

for someone who is trying to assert that the game experience imparts some incalculable je ne sais quoi about game mechanics you are making an awful lot of assumptions about nullsec yourself

for instance

i myself do not play in a group, despite being a member of a predominately nullsec alliance

feel free to run locators on me or anyone in my corp that is not obviously a cyno alt, you'll find that I am predominantly in lowsec

i don't have the theoretical safety net you describe because I play solo -- if I **** up, I'm dead, no one is rescuing my ass

goonswarm to me is largely a jabber channel with the odd bit of empire-related entertainment to me
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1388 - 2014-08-25 23:16:12 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
[...]

I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static

this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument

[...]

By your statement here, then, I have every right to dictate what happens in Nullsec despite never having spent more than an hour there? Gonna have to save this for later, so I can use it when the Nullsec changes are live on SiSi without prior statements to anyone who lives there. Then I can toss this little gem back at you and your peers out in the donut.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1389 - 2014-08-25 23:16:57 UTC
corbexx wrote:
ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info

see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge

i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"

it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize

a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1390 - 2014-08-25 23:17:44 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
[...]

I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static

this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument

[...]

By your statement here, then, I have every right to dictate what happens in Nullsec despite never having spent more than an hour there? Gonna have to save this for later, so I can use it when the Nullsec changes are live on SiSi without prior statements to anyone who lives there. Then I can toss this little gem back at you and your peers out in the donut.

dictate, no

comment on, yes

i am dictating nothing itt and neither are you
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1391 - 2014-08-25 23:26:50 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

for someone who is trying to assert that the game experience imparts some incalculable je ne sais quoi about game mechanics you are making an awful lot of assumptions about nullsec yourself

for instance

i myself do not play in a group, despite being a member of a predominately nullsec alliance

feel free to run locators on me or anyone in my corp that is not obviously a cyno alt, you'll find that I am predominantly in lowsec

i don't have the theoretical safety net you describe because I play solo -- if I **** up, I'm dead, no one is rescuing my ass

goonswarm to me is largely a jabber channel with the odd bit of empire-related entertainment to me

You have a safety net in that you have NPC stations to dock in, visible gates to use as jump points, immediate access to places to buy or trade goods to replace ships or acquire skills. Solo or not, that's not what I am talking about. You can jump into highsec (assuming you didn't cook your sec status) and have all the ease and luxuries available to anyone in the game.

Just as Goonswarm is your place to chat, so Center for Advanced Studies is for me. Apparently because I spend all my time chatting in an NPC corp some folks don't think opinions about things I've done matter. Well, now I have someone from Goons saying not having any experience allows sweeping declarations of fact about places I've never been. Glad to know both sides of the pendulum are sharp.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1392 - 2014-08-25 23:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: corbexx
Promiscuous Female wrote:
corbexx wrote:
ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info

see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge

i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"

it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize

a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out



I'd stop right here, please your making yourself look bad now rolling with 2 dreads would just have 1 stuck on wrong side.

This really highlights my earlier point of people making comments based on facts they think they know, that are just wrong.

off to bed now, but was a fun discussion. we'll have to continue it some time in a null thread.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Alundil
Rolled Out
#1393 - 2014-08-25 23:28:22 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
corbexx wrote:
ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info

see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge

i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"

it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize

a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out

On a 3b hole, if you jump two dreads out only one is making the return trip. 2 dreads/2jumps > 3b

You want a 'do over'?

I'm right behind you
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1394 - 2014-08-25 23:31:08 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
corbexx wrote:
ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info

see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge

i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"

it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize

a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out

On a 3b hole, if you jump two dreads out only one is making the return trip. 2 dreads/2jumps > 3b

You want a 'do over'?


3rd times a charm.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1395 - 2014-08-25 23:33:19 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge

i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4951074#post4951074

Thats actually the 2nd time I pointed out holes in that post as well :S
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1396 - 2014-08-25 23:35:37 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge

i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4951074#post4951074

Thats actually the 2nd time I pointed out holes in that post as well :S

was because you edited it in; didn't catch it the first time
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1397 - 2014-08-25 23:38:26 UTC
it's still curious to me though

why did you wait so long to just say the thing I got wrong

you could have saved so much time on this by just pointing it out

consider it a token lesson for next time

with 12 hours on the clock I doubt it matters much now :sun:
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1398 - 2014-08-25 23:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
True, and if past experience is anything to go by, we are expected to grab our own ankles, and when the cactus is inserted say "thank you Sir, May I have another"

Some one is going to be very disappointed with the reaction.

Sorry sunshine, you can stick that where the sun don't shine, and I am not standing still for it. Others will take their own actions.
Make of that what you will.

Judge not a man by his words but by his actions, downtime tomorrow, and all illusions are retained or shattered, and what is seen cannot be unseen.

Fozzie, you cannot sweet-talk yourself out of this one.

You will forever be branded and judged by how this plays out tomorrow.
You cannot roll this back later , and expect us to forget.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1399 - 2014-08-26 00:37:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.

I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.

troll ^^^ since we know it will take months at best before you do squat about it and i personally have decided not to bother dealing with the mass spew and due to your treatment of somerblink and others in the 5 years ive been playing ive decided enough is enough. I love the game but im tired of how ccp treats their customers. I've been tossing around writing my own game for several years now, maybe it's time i actually did it. Good luck to the rest of you, the players who make this game great. Was great fun flying with you...well most of you :)


and no you can't have my stuff
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1400 - 2014-08-26 01:07:19 UTC
corbexx wrote:


Yes logging off and doing nothing is totally valid and denying me kills is fine but its defeating the point of this change, if people arent prepared to roll the wh cos its to risky why even change it. Having it so you can jump back attually gives smaller groups a chance to fight bigger groups by slamming the door in there face and limiting numbers to a level they can fight.

I didnt mention anything about unsubbing at all. I said people are leaving wh space several corps have already done this. one is also looking at leaving or merging.

but if you could please let me know the stuff about what wh's you have lived in and for how long.

people logging off is an EXTREME problem because if they arent having fun playing eve then they will stop playing it and eve is the worse for it.