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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

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Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#261 - 2014-08-18 08:21:31 UTC
CCP knows the issue about the lower class wh's not making much isk because the melted nano's have tanked in price. Corbexx is helping them mapping out how bad the problem is

Wormholer for life.
Toit
Eschelon Directive
Quantum Inquisition
#262 - 2014-08-18 12:53:40 UTC
I completely agree that this will likely slow the flow between k-space and w-space. The statics between the lower rated WH systems will become, effectively, the only venue to get between k-space and w-space.

Moreover, I recommend that we look at how we got here in the first place. Why do we rely on player-driven actions to initiate, what is supposed to be, Mother Nature's actions? Why not have a hole wink into existence irrespective of me warping to it or jumping through it? The current stats for mass and timing could remain largely unchanged. Examples:

Static. I'm in a C2 with a static LS connection. That hole is on a 24 hr timer, nominally. When that timer starts, it starts. If I purposely collapse it, the new static is born and it's 24 hr timer starts immediately. And it can be seen on the other side - to wherever it connects to - immediately. If CCP wants to increase traffic between the two enclaves, that should help.

Casual. Works the same way and, assuming there is a finite, fixed number of casual holes across all of New Eden, then as one is collapsed (either intentionally or naturally) then another is immediately see-able by both systems it connects. Timers vary, mechanics are the same.

Additionally, delete the nomen of "K-162." If ALL holes in k-space were labelled as K-162s from the k-space side, then I would say we could keep it. It would hint at the mystery and exploration and general sense of the unknown that Wormholes are supposed to hold. But, a two-way portal's beginning and end are only relative to the traveler, not the portal itself. A portal between a C1 and HS should be labeled, for example, as H121 (fm HS side) and A641 (fm the WH side).

Lastly, revert to pre-Odyssey scanning. In fact, I would lobby to make ALL sigs/anoms in all w-space require probed scanning. W-space is about exploration. Both PvP and PvE ought to fit inside that concept, not drive that concept.
Rockenator
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#263 - 2014-08-18 13:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rockenator
I never have really gotten the whole K162 appearing later thing. If a wormhole opens here but not there , where exactly does it go in the mean time. If the mechanics are like this than it should be 100% random where you are gonna come out. I dont see this flying so I say we just abandon the exit hole sig and give it the same sig as any other hole leading to where it goes. And it should appear as soon as the entrance does. You will than need a full time combat scanner in order to have that carebear warm and fuzzy feeling once again Roll

AND....how did you manage to derail to the point of discussing null politics???
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#264 - 2014-08-18 23:57:29 UTC
+1 Fozzie, i think you have struck a good balance here, in combination with the other changes.

Bleedingthrough
#265 - 2014-08-19 01:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
On the K162 mechanic
I fear that the new change will lead to way less k162s from w-space and especially k-space.

WHs that get activated now by warping to them but not jumping through them will only spawn after a significant time has passed (less than 16h remaining). This will effectively reduce the amount of k162s significantly. Is this correct?

Also this change makes no sense for WHs with a lifetime of only 16h, e.g. C4->C3 connections. They would almost instantly start to open up.


Why not make K162s spawn together with their originating side?
Makes rolling more dangerous (for both sides), increases the number of active connections and makes "closed doors" impossible. Only option to look a system down would be to crit the static(s). And a crited static still allows for 18 T3s (worst case) to pass through.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-08-19 16:16:08 UTC
Bleedingthrough wrote:
On the K162 mechanic
I fear that the new change will lead to way less k162s from w-space and especially k-space.

WHs that get activated now by warping to them but not jumping through them will only spawn after a significant time has passed (less than 16h remaining). This will effectively reduce the amount of k162s significantly. Is this correct?

Also this change makes no sense for WHs with a lifetime of only 16h, e.g. C4->C3 connections. They would almost instantly start to open up.


Why not make K162s spawn together with their originating side?
Makes rolling more dangerous (for both sides), increases the number of active connections and makes "closed doors" impossible. Only option to look a system down would be to crit the static(s). And a crited static still allows for 18 T3s (worst case) to pass through.

You are asking that wormholes behave as they do now. The changes only affect a wormhole that has been warped to but not jumped through in the case of the timer to the other side appearing. For many connections this will mean the K162 has a chance of spawning almost immediately if warped to, in the case of many lower class WH connections. So for those holes this mechanic has effectively been nullified except for another slight bit of randomity being introduced. (Will it be visible now or will it be visible in 15 minutes?)
Bleedingthrough
#267 - 2014-08-19 17:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Bleedingthrough wrote:
On the K162 mechanic
I fear that the new change will lead to way less k162s from w-space and especially k-space.

WHs that get activated now by warping to them but not jumping through them will only spawn after a significant time has passed (less than 16h remaining). This will effectively reduce the amount of k162s significantly. Is this correct?

Also this change makes no sense for WHs with a lifetime of only 16h, e.g. C4->C3 connections. They would almost instantly start to open up.


Why not make K162s spawn together with their originating side?
Makes rolling more dangerous (for both sides), increases the number of active connections and makes "closed doors" impossible. Only option to look a system down would be to crit the static(s). And a crited static still allows for 18 T3s (worst case) to pass through.

You are asking that wormholes behave as they do now. The changes only affect a wormhole that has been warped to but not jumped through in the case of the timer to the other side appearing. For many connections this will mean the K162 has a chance of spawning almost immediately if warped to, in the case of many lower class WH connections. So for those holes this mechanic has effectively been nullified except for another slight bit of randomity being introduced. (Will it be visible now or will it be visible in 15 minutes?)


Nope, I think we don't need this arbitrary balance attempt. I want K162s to spawn as soon as the originating side becomes probeable. Better scout wins their team the game of mass. Advantage is obviously with the group collapsing because the know a new static will spawn and they have a fleet ready already.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#268 - 2014-08-19 18:36:47 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
things
Thats a massive stretch. We have absolutely no idea on numbers or how common any of those new holes will be. We dont know whether you will be getting new incoming connections every 20 minutes and 1/3 of them will be the new low-mass holes, or whether it will remain business as usual when you just close your static and remain cut off for hours.


The new frig wh will be very frequent if whats on sisi now is any indication

~Bringer of happiness

http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#269 - 2014-08-19 18:43:16 UTC
calaretu wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
things
Thats a massive stretch. We have absolutely no idea on numbers or how common any of those new holes will be. We dont know whether you will be getting new incoming connections every 20 minutes and 1/3 of them will be the new low-mass holes, or whether it will remain business as usual when you just close your static and remain cut off for hours.


The new frig wh will be very frequent if whats on sisi now is any indication


give some numbers pls :P
Justin Cody
War Firm
#270 - 2014-08-20 03:52:36 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

STUFF




So a null bear will still be able to warp to a freshly scanned wh, hit show info and decide it is too dangerous/deadly to jump into a warp off with no risk. Sure it will open sometime, but easily not until after the null bear has left the system or had plenty of time to organize whatever they choose to organize?


Let me streamline it for you. A null connection is scanned down. Null guy warps to it. Hit's show info.

If it comes up a C1 - C3 allow the scanner to select a 'give isk' option (100mil for C1, 300 mil for C2, and 500 mil for C3 sounds about right). Wallet flashes, wh despawns and the null bear can continue questing for more isk.

If it comes up a C4 - C6 allow scanner to select 'avert risk' option. Wh despawns immediately.

This will cut out the need for the null scanner to go get his tengu/ishtar and farm the lower class wh and for the higher class wh it will cut out the need to type tales of the danger in the intel channels and the need to avoid the now dangerous wh containing system.

You need to consider all the lost ratting/mining hours lost to fear of being ganked. Those wasted hours will just go away. Null bears will rejoice and rainbows and isk will spill out from their full full wallets. Null will settle into yet a deeper slumber and plex prices will redouble.



Nail...head...hit. The only thing this effects is a WH that has been warped to at all. I can figure out that I have a wormhole in null just by using my probes. I can bookmark it *WE DON'T GO TO RAVENHOLM* and none of my colleagues will warp to it and trigger the WH to ever spawn a K162. And now that sig ID's won't change after down time I don't even have to rescan to make sure that its the same thing...the ID stays and I'm even safer!

So this in no way changes things for nullbears at all. In fact their safety in certain systems is even more cemented. Its not like the proto-wormholes stay until someone decides to warp to them. I can imagine some systems in that case getting a ridiculous pileup of WH sigs. 0.0 always felt safer than high sec for me and I can see that isn't changing.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#271 - 2014-08-20 07:43:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
  • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
  • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.


Could I suggest that instead of a flat 16h +- x that you make it a percentage of the wormholes lifespan? Having a flat time like this does adress the issue of reduced kspace to wspace a little, but will directly reduce the number of wandering wormholes from wspace to wspace. Even the new frig ones.

I also understand you dont want to impose this timer on all wormholes this time around but I sincerely hope you consider doing so in a future patch. As Axloth has pointed out already none of the changes you introduce in Hyperion directly adress the issue of isolated systems.

~Bringer of happiness

http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#272 - 2014-08-21 03:24:22 UTC
Personally, i think this is a good change, even tho it makes my life more dangerous. I was worried that this random chance for the k162 to spawn after 15 hours remaining would mean the end of being able to lock down a wormhole. Effectively having your static spawn after time regardless if anyone bothered to scan it down. But i realise now this is only if the entrance had been put into an "invisible state", caused from warping to it. As long as this remains the case, I see no problem with this change.

Though i must say, all these wormhole changes are simply adding more and more risk, with no added gain. Plus it seems heavily in the advantage of the larger corps/alliances, and against those smaller corps.

And, for the LOVE OF GOD, why haven't you fixed the POS mechanics?? We've been waiting FOREVER, and those personal hangers are, quite frankly, a joke. I'd trade all these changes for a solution to that problem which everyone, from wormhole space to nullsec, have been begging you forever! Shocked

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2014-08-21 10:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point. [/list]

    • This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.


    I doubt i'm the first person to say this but, that's a pretty unintelligent mechanic Fozzie. Some people from K-space won't jump into a wormhole once they determine where it leads. It would be better if you added a 5-10 minute appearance delay on the other side, once the scanner has arrived on grid with the wormhole.

    The wishlist is pretty much complete...
    umnikar
    Fishbone Industries
    #274 - 2014-08-22 09:47:40 UTC
    hm, I'm not sure what this change and the added changes change is going to do at all. Shocked
    Ang Min
    CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
    #275 - 2014-08-23 19:01:30 UTC
    Ren Kavik wrote:
    Im a very posistive person really and i hate being negative.
    But im afraid i must say something.
    I see alot of opinions of NONE-wormholers here.
    Looks to me that there turning wh's in general into a pipeline to null.

    Me and my fellow wormholers are not happy with the developments.
    I havent seen 1 thing that actually benefits the current wh players.
    Im afraid of a mass exodus from wh space.

    I run a small wh corps in a lower clas wh.
    Ive heard from fellow corpleaders that their pulling the plug on each of there respective whs.

    I mean im not talking about the big corps
    They will have no problem keeping control over their whs.
    I mean the only thing for them to fear is rooks and kings basicly.
    (no offense to all those other badass wh corps)

    But for the smaller corps its a whole different matter.
    It doesnt make sense to me to kill off 1 of the best training grounds for small new corps.
    I mean are small new corps going to be condemned to wander highsec with no real chance of learning how to control a peace of space.

    The C1-C3 WH was a great place to give a small corps some space to control before growing into bigger corps.
    These small corps could opperate because of the relative safety closing down the openings provided.
    Removing this ability will make it impossible for the small corps to get by in the wh.

    Im afraid that c1-c3 will become a desolate place. "invisions a dustbowl flieing by"
    The rewards in those systems dont match up with the increased risk.
    The site difficulty isnt the problem.
    The almost certainty of getting 'ganked' by some fail pvper looking for something to kill that wont shoot back.
    Dont get me wrong i love pvp.
    Its just that these pvpers dont ever dare attacking something that has anychance of killing them.
    O dear what if lose my 99% killrate.
    Pathetic really.

    But back on topic.
    My point is that there must be an increased reward to ballance out the increased risk that comes with the hyperion update.
    If this does not happen look at player activity graphs in the whs in about 6 months and even less players wil be in wh.
    Well to be more precise there might be the same amount of unique users but significantly less hours logged in the lower class whs.

    Is the future of the lower class whs really only going to be a backdoor to null?

    Trust me the young corps that your killing now wont resub in 6 months when you try to fix this mess.

    Treully a shame.




    You are exactly right, and we've already sold and moved out of our C1 because of these changes. The really frustrating part is that CCP Fozzie and CCP Seagull (and the rest) are completely ignoring the overwhelming majority of players who are opposed to these changes (even those who don't oppose say they prefer the pre-Odyssey WH mechanics). It's just like Incarna all over again..."the players don't know what they want, we know better than them."

    Now I'm just trying to decide which of my two accounts to cancel...or both. Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous are looking more and more interesting...
    Ren Kavik
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #276 - 2014-08-24 03:10:16 UTC
    Wander Prian wrote:
    CCP knows the issue about the lower class wh's not making much isk because the melted nano's have tanked in price. Corbexx is helping them mapping out how bad the problem is


    Im really losing hope here.

    Its almost the 26th and no adjustments!

    Corbex please talk some sense into them!


    d'Arma Edd
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #277 - 2014-08-24 06:50:09 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey everyone.

    Like I mentioned earlier in the thread we completely agree with the concerns raised here about this change potentially decreasing the number of exits to K-space dramatically.

    We've done a bit more investigating and chatting with the CSM and we are currently planning to give K162s a random chance to appear every once and a while whenever they have less than 15 hours of lifespan remaining.

    Under this system, the K162 spawning mechanics would be as follows:
    • K162 wormholes and signatures are spawned in an invisible state when someone initiated warp to the other side of the connection.
    • K162 signatures become immediately visible when someone jumps through the wormhole connection for the first time.
    • IF the K162 signature is in an invisible state and the wormhole connection has less than 15 hours of lifetime remaining, it will have a chance of becoming visible every few minutes, balanced so that virtually all K162s will appear within a couple hours or less from this point.

    This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.

    Patch Notes wrote:
    The wormhole changes include:

      ...
    • K162 appearance only on first jump
      • ...

    Patch notes are incomplete OR all other changes not implemented (yet)?
    calexxa
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #278 - 2014-08-24 11:19:14 UTC
    question - lets say I am in C3 with 1 static, I close that static, new will appear but i will not jump through. That means what? That for that new static lifetime there will be no entrance to my wh, untill i jump through it ?
    umnikar
    Fishbone Industries
    #279 - 2014-08-24 12:39:00 UTC
    calexxa wrote:
    question - lets say I am in C3 with 1 static, I close that static, new will appear but i will not jump through. That means what? That for that new static lifetime there will be no entrance to my wh, untill i jump through it ?


    Yes, but this was the case before if you do not initiate warp. So no change at all from that point of view.

    Just wondering if the delay after jump will make it into hyperion. We are not far from wormholes spawning directly into sites then...
    Buba Neagra
    Hedion University
    Amarr Empire
    #280 - 2014-08-25 12:07:12 UTC
    So let me get this straight : I may be in 0.0 system and have let's say 5 potential wh's in there but I can see none unless the one from the other side jumps in. WH guys will just have time to gather up, put up a consistent fleet and jump in when they are all ready to engage.

    How is that fair to me ?

    Let's say I'm in a freighter, warping to the gate, having intel 10 system radius so I'm safe. But...I'm not since I have no signature on dscan.

    Therefore, I live in 0.0 but in wh terms. That is not FAIR. Make this change if you want for connections with other wormholes, not high, lowsec or 0.0.