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Wormholes

 
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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

First post
Author
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#221 - 2014-08-13 15:48:27 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:

This will cut out the need for the null scanner to go get his tengu/ishtar and farm the lower class wh and for the higher class wh it will cut out the need to type tales of the danger in the intel channels and the need to avoid the now dangerous wh containing system.


Thats an interesting point and also raises an interesting counter point - assuming currently when a null scout scans down a C5/6 and reports it back to intel it changes a bit what happens as now its not immediately a threat (assuming they know no one has spawned the other side) and it could be hours later that it actually connects with a lot more random outcome as to what happens as it would long ago have fallen off the bottom of relevancy in the intel channels.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#222 - 2014-08-13 16:02:45 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

This will cut out the need for the null scanner to go get his tengu/ishtar and farm the lower class wh and for the higher class wh it will cut out the need to type tales of the danger in the intel channels and the need to avoid the now dangerous wh containing system.


Thats an interesting point and also raises an interesting counter point - assuming currently when a null scout scans down a C5/6 and reports it back to intel it changes a bit what happens as now its not immediately a threat (assuming they know no one has spawned the other side) and it could be hours later that it actually connects with a lot more random outcome as to what happens as it would long ago have fallen off the bottom of relevancy in the intel channels.



So..... this is the "it's ok because null guys are bad at eve" defense? True, but not acceptable.

It would be refreshing if folks would stop watering down bad ideas and saying they are OK.

It would be nice if CCP pushed for ship destruction being the biggest isk sink in game. (Get back to the basics boys)

Many changes of late (years, not just this expansion) are going directly against that idea. This just adds safety to null folks scanning down wh. It adds nothing else to the game. The overlay is bad for wh. In lieu of reconciling that fact this change attempts to work around a bad (easily removed from wh) feature and compromise. It's just creating yet another new problem and only lessening but not resolving the last.

CCP is fighting against the tar baby and not doing so well. (it's a good book, read it to your children)
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-08-13 17:29:11 UTC
You're only considering how this will impact a null PVE player and deciding the whole change is increasing safety. This change makes chain rolling for caps farming in wormholes a thing again (unless the mass based jump spawn stays as is).

I'd prefer the ability to surprise farming capitals with a prepared group to axing the change based on the notion that people have always been waiting on the other side of that null connection to swarm the guy who scanned it down.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#224 - 2014-08-13 19:57:11 UTC
Meh. Not much of an improvement. If the times in this article are correct: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Wormholes, then holes with 48 hr lifetime are getting a huge boost to isolating themselves. The updated changes make sense on the 16 hr holes because that's basically an hour timer til K162 spawns. Perhaps you can scale it 1 hr, 2hr , 3hr for each total lifetime interval.

As originally conceived and even in this updated format, despite all the other changes coming, this is effectively a boost to isolating yourself without the trouble of collapsing the wormhole. The frig size holes are kind of silly IMO. If you're running sites in a C6, I doubt there's any force of frigs that could effectively engage you in combat in an overwhelming number of cases. Where are these frigs going to catch you? In a site? They'll be killed by the NPCs. On a tower? If the tower doesn't kill you and you can't kill the player quickly, he'll get to safety. If you're not having to collapse holes, why would you get caught on a hole?

I'm sure there are more informed WH players to help break things down, but it sure does look like some of your WH changes are contradictory.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#225 - 2014-08-13 22:29:06 UTC
Those 48 hour holes on the chart are all wandering wh's and not statics

Wormholer for life.

sansem
Astroketeers
#226 - 2014-08-13 23:18:27 UTC
Hi all, specially CCP.
TOTAL SCREW UP OF WH SPACE AND MAKE IT EMPTY AS IS WAS PLANED FROM BEGINING HAS BEEN well done,
after 8/26 I am going to close all my accounts (all 6 of them) SELL MY ASSETS FROM WH AND ALL CHARACTERS ON BAZAR. you making to live in wormholes impossible even more... well, not big loss for CCP, just $90 a month ($120 actual because I am buying for each account PLEX from market which CCP sell for $20 each).
GREAT BUSINESS CCP!!!
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#227 - 2014-08-13 23:22:43 UTC
What the hell were you doing with your 6 accounts before the discovery scanner?
Winthorp
#228 - 2014-08-13 23:23:08 UTC
sansem wrote:
Hi all, specially CCP.
TOTAL SCREW UP OF WH SPACE AND MAKE IT EMPTY AS IS WAS PLANED FROM BEGINING HAS BEEN well done,
after 8/26 I am going to close all my accounts (all 6 of them) SELL MY ASSETS FROM WH AND ALL CHARACTERS ON BAZAR. you making to live in wormholes impossible even more... well, not big loss for CCP, just $90 a month ($120 actual because I am buying for each account PLEX from market which CCP sell for $20 each).
GREAT BUSINESS CCP!!!



Can i have your stuff and your capslock button?
sansem
Astroketeers
#229 - 2014-08-13 23:43:28 UTC
2Klarion Sythis
i lived and farm happily in c6 till this up coming change for 3 years. farm anomalies in 5 windows, building capitals, planetary and other stuff and keep one account for pvp in nullsec. but I think its time for me to say bye bye EVE online and CCP. 20 km to appear from wh to close it. are you insane? small mass whs which impossible to close because mass regeneration..... too much for me.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-08-13 23:46:21 UTC
Ah, the thread you chose to post in confused me, thus the scanner question. To each their own. Still seems like an extreme reaction.
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#231 - 2014-08-14 00:14:36 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Ah, the thread you chose to post in confused me, thus the scanner question. To each their own. Still seems like an extreme reaction.

not really. what would a nullbear do if you made similar changes to null or just removed local? would he go back to high sec? wh space with no supers or cynos? ls with no sov? no he would prolly unsub. for a lot of people there is only wh space. no other space will ever be good enough after living in whs. once you take away that witch made it possible for him to live there then unsub is the only option left.

I remember some months ago, after oddesey, saying that when CCP makes changes to the game that only 'accidentally' touches wh space that it will always break a little bit of wh space (discovery scanner, ess, etc.) Back then I warned people that if ccp ever decided to actually do an expantion for whs that it will royally **** it up so bad that wh space will die.

sometimes it sucks to be right... but it is kinda fun to tell everyone I told you so, especially ccp.

I told you so Fozzy and im telling you now again. I'm always right.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#232 - 2014-08-14 00:36:41 UTC
As I said, to each their own. If your enjoyment of this game is so thoroughly destroyed by these changes that you can't find anything enjoyable left in the sandbox, that's your call. EVE's a big place though and people have literally been saying some equivalent of "The End is Coming" since the game launched and at every single expansion for the past 11 years now.

In all that time, there are people that genuinely unsubbed because something did, in fact, change what they liked about the game. Nerfs to supers being a good example. Still, here we are, with a game filled with people, and the game marches on with people doing ~stuff~ in every type of space.

That's not to say there aren't threats to this game's health...there are. I don't think this is one of those things though.
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2014-08-14 00:49:48 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
As I said, to each their own. If your enjoyment of this game is so thoroughly destroyed by these changes that you can't find anything enjoyable left in the sandbox, that's your call. EVE's a big place though and people have literally been saying some equivalent of "The End is Coming" since the game launched and at every single expansion for the past 11 years now.

In all that time, there are people that genuinely unsubbed because something did, in fact, change what they liked about the game. Nerfs to supers being a good example. Still, here we are, with a game filled with people, and the game marches on with people doing ~stuff~ in every type of space.

That's not to say there aren't threats to this game's health...there are. I don't think this is one of those things though.

I have to agree.

At the end of the day, all games have a point where you, as the player, adapt to the environment and changes, or you die. EVE is no different, but it has been the smallest, gentlest of the transitions I've seen lately. My WH alliance isn't going anywhere. The changes will affect us, but not greatly enough to run, crying, from wormhole space, spouting nonsense about unsubbing all my accounts.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#234 - 2014-08-14 03:36:33 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.

STUFF

This will ensure that if people choose not to warp through their wormhole connections after warping to them, the wormhole systems on the other side will still gain the ability to use that connection eventually.



So a null bear will still be able to warp to a freshly scanned wh, hit show info and decide it is too dangerous/deadly to jump into a warp off with no risk. Sure it will open sometime, but easily not until after the null bear has left the system or had plenty of time to organize whatever they choose to organize?


Let me streamline it for you. A null connection is scanned down. Null guy warps to it. Hit's show info.

If it comes up a C1 - C3 allow the scanner to select a 'give isk' option (100mil for C1, 300 mil for C2, and 500 mil for C3 sounds about right). Wallet flashes, wh despawns and the null bear can continue questing for more isk.

If it comes up a C4 - C6 allow scanner to select 'avert risk' option. Wh despawns immediately.

This will cut out the need for the null scanner to go get his tengu/ishtar and farm the lower class wh and for the higher class wh it will cut out the need to type tales of the danger in the intel channels and the need to avoid the now dangerous wh containing system.

You need to consider all the lost ratting/mining hours lost to fear of being ganked. Those wasted hours will just go away. Null bears will rejoice and rainbows and isk will spill out from thier full full wallets. Null will settle into yet a deeper slumber and plex prices will redouble.


I disagree.. With the current system null bear do not even warp to a static WH... Some alliances even forbid to even scan in certain key areas so as to never activate the local static...
So them checking a sig out and see if they can exploit it or not is a step forward, as they may decide to try farming what is on the other side... Curiosity can kill the bear as well as it kills cats :)

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#235 - 2014-08-14 07:21:57 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.


So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?

it has always been this way. other people's static can still roll into you, now you just get less warning meaning its less safe than it aleady was to make isk. add to that the uncollapsable frig holes hole... yea.


Whole point being, the one I believe Fozzie did not answer:

If the WHs behave like now, it means unless I warp to / jump through, they stay dormant and not even the after-while spawning state of thing as mentioned will happen. Simply if I know I got 2 statcis, I close both and I have absolutely no reason to even probe them, just ignore those two and probe anything new that might pop up. It makes for closed out hole easily.
Winthorp
#236 - 2014-08-14 08:42:00 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
This does not address the issue of people isolating themselves by not even warping to their fresh static at all.

If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, it will act in the same way that it does now. However since players will now get a less extreme early warning when a new connection that exits in their system appears and we're adding more random wormhole connections, this should help a little bit with the isolation problem.


So it will not spawn the other end? thus if I close both holes in my static, i get dead end and nice time to farm?

it has always been this way. other people's static can still roll into you, now you just get less warning meaning its less safe than it aleady was to make isk. add to that the uncollapsable frig holes hole... yea.


Whole point being, the one I believe Fozzie did not answer:

If the WHs behave like now, it means unless I warp to / jump through, they stay dormant and not even the after-while spawning state of thing as mentioned will happen. Simply if I know I got 2 statcis, I close both and I have absolutely no reason to even probe them, just ignore those two and probe anything new that might pop up. It makes for closed out hole easily.


I do believe they will change that to add a timer to it also.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#237 - 2014-08-14 09:04:07 UTC
Winthorp wrote:


I do believe they will change that to add a timer to it also.


I thought so too, but it wasnt obvious to me from the post. Itd be kind of easy to lock up then.
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#238 - 2014-08-14 09:10:06 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Winthorp wrote:


I do believe they will change that to add a timer to it also.


I thought so too, but it wasnt obvious to me from the post. Itd be kind of easy to lock up then.

from what I understand the timer will only start once you warp to the wormhole. so still kinda the same as it is now, dont warp to the wh.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#239 - 2014-08-14 09:22:37 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Winthorp wrote:


I do believe they will change that to add a timer to it also.


I thought so too, but it wasnt obvious to me from the post. Itd be kind of easy to lock up then.

from what I understand the timer will only start once you warp to the wormhole. so still kinda the same as it is now, dont warp to the wh.


Point being, if you just probe, dont warp. NO timer, no spawn = closed WH.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#240 - 2014-08-14 09:55:01 UTC
Even with the timer, K162s will never appear unless someone has initiated warp to the other side.
If you don't warp to a wormhole at all, the behavior of that wormhole will not be changing in Hyperion.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie