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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1341 - 2011-12-07 18:48:23 UTC
Clearly, this gallente boost was a roaring sucess, not sure what your all whin....

1 Drake 52592
2 Hurricane 24497
3 Abaddon 19255
4 Tengu 12979
5 Armageddon 8718
6 Scimitar 7012
7 Tornado 6982
8 Maelstrom 6169
9 Tempest 5572
10 Sabre 5237
11 Cynabal 5144
12 Thrasher 4384
13 Huginn 4355
14 Loki 4175
15 Vagabond 3817
16 Lachesis 3730
17 Rapier 3719
18 Rifter 3298
19 Capsule 3156
20 Hound 2982

...oh.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1342 - 2011-12-07 19:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zachis
Sigras wrote:
The problem wasnt that 90% webs made the talos effective, but that the 90% web made the talos effective against small ships; small ships are supposed to be the counter to the new battlecruisers due to their use of large (poor tracking) guns, but with a 90% web, the talos could engage ships of all sizes.



Excellent point.

And I think one which also has a simple fix, namely to add signature radius to turret ammo. Currently if you can track it, you can hit it for full damage. If you added in a sig radius component to turret ammo, then BS sized guns would be less effective/non-effective against small targets. Wouldn't matter how slow they were.
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
#1343 - 2011-12-07 20:00:27 UTC
Zachis wrote:
And I think one which also has a simple fix, namely to add signature radius to turret ammo. Currently if you can track it, you can hit it for full damage. If you added in a sig radius component to turret ammo, then BS sized guns would be less effective/non-effective against small targets. Wouldn't matter how slow they were.


a) Ammo doesn't say anything about sig radius (...and most of it doesn't say anything about tracking either), but guns do
b) Because of the way the turret formulae work ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ), signature resolution and tracking are two sides of the same coin. Doubling signature resolution has the exact same effect as halving tracking.

In order to make this work you'd have to rewrite the turret formulae, which is very much a non-trivial thing.

Though I do think it's something that needs looking at.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1344 - 2011-12-07 20:31:58 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Clearly, this gallente boost was a roaring sucess, not sure what your all whin....

1 Drake 52592
2 Hurricane 24497
3 Abaddon 19255
4 Tengu 12979
5 Armageddon 8718
6 Scimitar 7012
7 Tornado 6982
8 Maelstrom 6169
9 Tempest 5572
10 Sabre 5237
11 Cynabal 5144
12 Thrasher 4384
13 Huginn 4355
14 Loki 4175
15 Vagabond 3817
16 Lachesis 3730
17 Rapier 3719
18 Rifter 3298
19 Capsule 3156
20 Hound 2982

...oh.

at least tier 3 bc is a success , even if it is only winmatard who would have thought ?:O
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1345 - 2011-12-07 21:30:41 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Clearly, this gallente boost was a roaring sucess, not sure what your all whin....

1 Drake 52592
2 Hurricane 24497
3 Abaddon 19255
4 Tengu 12979
5 Armageddon 8718
6 Scimitar 7012
7 Tornado 6982
8 Maelstrom 6169
9 Tempest 5572
10 Sabre 5237
11 Cynabal 5144
12 Thrasher 4384
13 Huginn 4355
14 Loki 4175
15 Vagabond 3817
16 Lachesis 3730
17 Rapier 3719
18 Rifter 3298
19 Capsule 3156
20 Hound 2982

...oh.

at least tier 3 bc is a success , even if it is only winmatard who would have thought ?:O


This whole topic is becomming rediculous...
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1346 - 2011-12-07 21:33:14 UTC
Autonomous Monster wrote:
Zachis wrote:
And I think one which also has a simple fix, namely to add signature radius to turret ammo. Currently if you can track it, you can hit it for full damage. If you added in a sig radius component to turret ammo, then BS sized guns would be less effective/non-effective against small targets. Wouldn't matter how slow they were.


a) Ammo doesn't say anything about sig radius (...and most of it doesn't say anything about tracking either), but guns do
b) Because of the way the turret formulae work ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage ), signature resolution and tracking are two sides of the same coin. Doubling signature resolution has the exact same effect as halving tracking.

In order to make this work you'd have to rewrite the turret formulae, which is very much a non-trivial thing.

Though I do think it's something that needs looking at.


Thank you for the link.

What I would propose is to make the turret damage equation more akin to the damage equation for missiles, where signature radius and explosion radius factor into the mix. Add a signature radius of the charge compared to the signature radius of the target into the damage side of the equation. Without messing with the current tracking formula for turrets.

My concern is, that without some modification to the turret damage equation any effective change to blaster boats is going to make them either too effective against smaller targets and imbalanced (worst case) or still ineffective (worst case #2, current status quo).

Regardless of any changes CCP makes or doesn't make, this thread and the discussion of hybrid weapons has been very fruitful for me personally, and hopefully demonstrated to CCP just how intertwined a true hybrid rebalance is with all of the combat mechanics in EVE.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1347 - 2011-12-08 11:28:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Naomi Knight wrote:
then why the tornado is faster than the cruisers ??


Because CCP either didn't listen to the concerns of myself and many others or they started public testing too late in the process to actually react to criticism and suggestions while they spend all their time giving the Talos a 25m3 drone bay...
.
The new battlecruisers are supposed to be faster than battleships, however making them faster than T1 and T2 cruisers is a bad thing as they instead should have made them the SIZE of cruisers but speed close to the other battlecruisers. The new concept of tier 3 BC's have given sniping a slight come back, but in the process neglected many old traits that kind of kept Eve together and I hope a few things will get polished soon...

  • Making them smaller is fine by me (less damage from large weapons)
  • Making them slower is definately required (plz dont take a **** on cruisers/hacs)
  • Talos and other gallente blasterships need more agility and/or less mass (the missing link of hybrid balancing)

Also T2 long range ammo on short range weapon system in my opinion makes an unbalanced difference in why most people don't need long range weapon systems anymore, but this is mostly another issue.

Tornado works nice because
  • They can pull range on anything but fast frigs making them pretty safe to fly
  • They can snipe out of sentry gun range with enough artillery alpha to nuke small targets in 1 go
  • Autocannons can hit at extreme range with good damage without getting too close to be in trouble

Oracle can do the same, however not fast enough to be worth it.
Talos with blasters are still forced to be in range where it will get in trouble and railguns still don't have enough punch kill stuff on gates. Naga might be able to pull off the range with blasters and null, however none of them can compete with the Tornado for being ******** fast and able of escaping most tackling attempts except an unexpected killerfleet on a gate.

Pinky
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1348 - 2011-12-08 15:40:54 UTC
Hey Mr CCP Talles I've got a nice joke 4 U

I got in to the intaki station on SISI and I got one fresh shiny awesome overpowered Diemost.

I got 5 T2 neutrons 1 T2 MWD 1 meta 4 web (awesome) and since my fitting window was telling me my ship was already caped out with this I got a T2 med cap injector.

This is the point where it becomes really funny.

When I looked in to my ship stas I thought I was with my forum alt and his 900Sp, so I checked an no I was not dreaming !!
My Diemost had 50 w (-/+) left to fit some tank and put some dps mods on it.

Now this is very funny, I couldn't find the civilian mods to fit it !!

Did you guys forgot to put those on SISI??
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1349 - 2011-12-08 15:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Hamox wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Clearly, this gallente boost was a roaring sucess, not sure what your all whin....

1 Drake 52592
2 Hurricane 24497
3 Abaddon 19255
4 Tengu 12979
5 Armageddon 8718
6 Scimitar 7012
7 Tornado 6982
8 Maelstrom 6169
9 Tempest 5572
10 Sabre 5237
11 Cynabal 5144
12 Thrasher 4384
13 Huginn 4355
14 Loki 4175
15 Vagabond 3817
16 Lachesis 3730
17 Rapier 3719
18 Rifter 3298
19 Capsule 3156
20 Hound 2982

...oh.

at least tier 3 bc is a success , even if it is only winmatard who would have thought ?:O


This whole topic is becomming rediculous...



You may find the topic ridiculous, what I find ridiculous is how many people around are totally incapable to read some numbers. It's not rocket science.

EDIT: Wait I see an hybrid ship at 6th position, it's a scimitar Lol
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1350 - 2011-12-08 16:17:47 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey Mr CCP Talles I've got a nice joke 4 U

I got in to the intaki station on SISI and I got one fresh shiny awesome overpowered Diemost.

I got 5 T2 neutrons 1 T2 MWD 1 meta 4 web (awesome) and since my fitting window was telling me my ship was already caped out with this I got a T2 med cap injector.

This is the point where it becomes really funny.

When I looked in to my ship stas I thought I was with my forum alt and his 900Sp, so I checked an no I was not dreaming !!
My Diemost had 50 w (-/+) left to fit some tank and put some dps mods on it.

Now this is very funny, I couldn't find the civilian mods to fit it !!

Did you guys forgot to put those on SISI??


No it is intended , it has to be "least" tanky one due to it has the best speed and versatility so it can choose its fights and disengage easily if outgunned/tanked.
Oh wait you are not talking about everyones favourite race :( my mistake
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1351 - 2011-12-08 17:01:43 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey Mr CCP Talles I've got a nice joke 4 U

I got in to the intaki station on SISI and I got one fresh shiny awesome overpowered Diemost.

I got 5 T2 neutrons 1 T2 MWD 1 meta 4 web (awesome) and since my fitting window was telling me my ship was already caped out with this I got a T2 med cap injector.

This is the point where it becomes really funny.

When I looked in to my ship stas I thought I was with my forum alt and his 900Sp, so I checked an no I was not dreaming !!
My Diemost had 50 w (-/+) left to fit some tank and put some dps mods on it.

Now this is very funny, I couldn't find the civilian mods to fit it !!

Did you guys forgot to put those on SISI??


No it is intended , it has to be "least" tanky one due to it has the best speed and versatility so it can choose its fights and disengage easily if outgunned/tanked.
Oh wait you are not talking about everyones favourite race :( my mistake



W8 I'm going to try to fit my vagabond with 425mm T2 auto canons and see if I can fully fit the ship like in TQ. Who knows Lol
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
#1352 - 2011-12-08 19:01:11 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
W8 I'm going to try to fit my vagabond with 425mm T2 auto canons and see if I can fully fit the ship like in TQ. Who knows Lol


Why are we comparing it to the Vaga instead of the Muninn? What? The 'rax is the tier 3 cruiser.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1353 - 2011-12-08 19:31:03 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey Mr CCP Talles I've got a nice joke 4 U

I got in to the intaki station on SISI and I got one fresh shiny awesome overpowered Diemost.

I got 5 T2 neutrons 1 T2 MWD 1 meta 4 web (awesome) and since my fitting window was telling me my ship was already caped out with this I got a T2 med cap injector.

This is the point where it becomes really funny.

When I looked in to my ship stas I thought I was with my forum alt and his 900Sp, so I checked an no I was not dreaming !!
My Diemost had 50 w (-/+) left to fit some tank and put some dps mods on it.

Now this is very funny, I couldn't find the civilian mods to fit it !!

Did you guys forgot to put those on SISI??


No it is intended , it has to be "least" tanky one due to it has the best speed and versatility so it can choose its fights and disengage easily if outgunned/tanked.
Oh wait you are not talking about everyones favourite race :( my mistake



W8 I'm going to try to fit my vagabond with 425mm T2 auto canons and see if I can fully fit the ship like in TQ. Who knows Lol


Please let us know what you find out :P
FlameGlow
Perkone
Caldari State
#1354 - 2011-12-08 19:49:15 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey Mr CCP Talles I've got a nice joke 4 U

I got in to the intaki station on SISI and I got one fresh shiny awesome overpowered Diemost.

I got 5 T2 neutrons 1 T2 MWD 1 meta 4 web (awesome) and since my fitting window was telling me my ship was already caped out with this I got a T2 med cap injector.

This is the point where it becomes really funny.

When I looked in to my ship stas I thought I was with my forum alt and his 900Sp, so I checked an no I was not dreaming !!
My Diemost had 50 w (-/+) left to fit some tank and put some dps mods on it.

Now this is very funny, I couldn't find the civilian mods to fit it !!

Did you guys forgot to put those on SISI??


I got a better joke: Eagle
It is out of grid with just the 5 T2 250mm rails and mwd
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2011-12-08 20:27:43 UTC
Tallest where are you?
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#1356 - 2011-12-08 23:30:16 UTC
Tallets is hopefully busy ammending Supers drone bay capacity to 20 FBs & 20 Fighters!

P.S. loving astarte/vindi fleets now & even 425mm rail Rohk fleets XD something different......
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1357 - 2011-12-09 00:08:34 UTC
Well - Eagle is not supposed to be fitting MWD and Deimos is not supposed to fit neutrons... But Im pretty sure CCP are looking through most hybrid ships to make sure they can fit what CCP intends them to.
Just because you guys fail at fitting stuff that the ships are not designed for doesn't mean everything is entirely broken (However I'm not saying that certain ships lack something).
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1358 - 2011-12-09 00:29:32 UTC
FlameGlow wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hey Mr CCP Talles I've got a nice joke 4 U

I got in to the intaki station on SISI and I got one fresh shiny awesome overpowered Diemost.

I got 5 T2 neutrons 1 T2 MWD 1 meta 4 web (awesome) and since my fitting window was telling me my ship was already caped out with this I got a T2 med cap injector.

This is the point where it becomes really funny.

When I looked in to my ship stas I thought I was with my forum alt and his 900Sp, so I checked an no I was not dreaming !!
My Diemost had 50 w (-/+) left to fit some tank and put some dps mods on it.

Now this is very funny, I couldn't find the civilian mods to fit it !!

Did you guys forgot to put those on SISI??


I got a better joke: Eagle
It is out of grid with just the 5 T2 250mm rails and mwd



haha that one is funny too. Ho god makes a lot of time I haven't laugh like that Lol
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1359 - 2011-12-09 00:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
F____ing ganked again by this fracking stupid forum !!! grrrrrrrr
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1360 - 2011-12-09 00:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Well - Eagle is not supposed to be fitting MWD and Deimos is not supposed to fit neutrons...



Who said the Diemost, for memory is the Gallente HEAVY ASSAULT CRUISER , is not intended to fit neutrons? -where did you got that??
And where did you got that Eagle is not supposed to fit mwd?

Please links or you're just getting that stuff out of your ass, and that would be silly.

T2 Heavy assault cruisers, high end cruisers for specific tasks -read DPS- not being able to fit high end guns, decent tank, decent prop mods and ewar: web/disruptor., and never ever being cap stable even with AB instead... ridiculous design, but you have the right to love it.

You call that "high end" or T2 cruiser?? - you really think it's not meant to use the tools that help him do his job?
You think this ship using the worst range weapon system, has to fit the lowest tier weapons and by so reduce even more his range and dps just to fit a stupid plate? it still dies the most, and eagle less just because doesn't undock

C'mon, lets be serious for a second. It's just like everything else in gallente line up, can succeed bet there's no reason on picking that one when you have better out there.

Edit: for your information even a stupid Navy Stabber is capable of fit highest end tier weapons and mwd, decent tank and web/scram, my version of NS has double prop, uses 220mm Vulcans (almost same dps than 425mm) keeps a very decent tank web and disruptor.